Old 11-28-2012, 12:43 PM   #1
Tyrannocaster
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Default Trouble with plugin send/recieve

I guess that's what's up, anyway. I'm using Melda Productions Vibato VST plugin and I want to use my synth's mod wheel to control the depth. I already recorded the midi notes passage and now I'm adding CC data. I created a new track with a send to the existing midi track and it works great...as long as I don't try to play anything back. Live, everything is fine - mod wheel controls the plugin, plugin responds fine while recording, there's midi data recorded when I record but I can't get the plugin to recognize it when I play back the track. I also tried overdubbing the mod wheel data onto the original midi track; this worked (I recorded data fine and the plugin responded while I was recording) but again - no response when I play the track back. I used the LEARN feature for the plugin's depth parameter, setting it to Mod Wheel MSB (1).

I know there's something basic I'm missing here. Anybody got an idea what it might be?

EDIT: I can add a set of Depth control points to the track and it works, but then I have to do all those damn points manually. I want to use CC data in real time; I'm a musician, dammit - musicians play, they don't input. Well, sometimes even then you have to, but I think you see what I mean. Is this another impossibility, like drawing the points freehand?

Last edited by Tyrannocaster; 11-28-2012 at 03:24 PM.
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Old 11-28-2012, 04:30 PM   #2
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If you want to record a modulated parameter (which one it ever may be), you have to use the automation write mode, otherwise the automation works while playing the instrument, but it won't be recorded. recording (writing) automation is not connected to recording MIDI or audio.

Right-click on the automation button and choose "Write (record fader positions to armed envelopes)".

Hint: Depending on your settings, it might happen, that when you stop playback (or recording) the write mode is switched off again. If you don't want this, go to "Preferences -> Editing Behavior -> Automation" and set "After recording automation in write mode, on repeat/seek/stop:" to "Remain in write mode".


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Old 11-28-2012, 04:47 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrannocaster View Post
I used the LEARN feature for the plugin's depth parameter, setting it to Mod Wheel MSB (1).
Which LEARN feature did you use? The REAPER MIDI Learn or the plug-in's own MIDI learn feature? I think you used the former and you need to use the latter.

That's not easy to explain but here it goes: The REAPER MIDI learn function is for automation and controlling the knobs on the plug-in GUI, in your example it's wiring the mod wheel to the depth knob, it uses MIDI CC data to do that (since there's no other way). If you record that track, it also records the MIDI CC data but the plug-in does not react on the MIDI CC data on playback since you didn't teach it to react on mod wheel, you taught REAPER to turn the knob using the wheel, which can be recorded only as automation data.

If you use the plug-in's own learn feature it should react on recorded MIDI CC.
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Old 11-29-2012, 06:03 AM   #4
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The first learn feature I used was the one you access through the Reaper plugin window itself. In this case, I opened the FX window (plugin) and used the learn feature that you access through the parameters popup. But I also went into the Melda Vibrato plugin and clicked on the midi setup button and used that to set the plugin to CC Mod Wheel (1) for Depth. Seems like between those two it should have taken care of it.

Mr. Data, my situation is the opposite of what you describe, that is, data gets recorded with no problem but the plugin does not respond when it is played back. However, it does respond in realtime, ie, when I am recording. Seems odd.
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Old 11-29-2012, 06:22 AM   #5
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^^^^
When you are playing in real-time the MIDI CC messages from your MIDI controller are sent to any track which is RecArmed AND to any Envelope lane which is mapped to that CC and Write-enabled.

You could find that the messages are Recorded in a MIDI clip AND Written to the envelope lane as automation points.

For playback:
-- change the track Automation mode to "Read"
-- remove those MIDI CC messages from the MIDI clip they are not needed if the VST parameter automation is used).

---------------------------------
Your might like to vote here: if recording MIDI and Writing automation, the "MIDI_learnt" MIDI CC messages are recorded too.
http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=3106

Discussion thread: http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=40904
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Old 11-29-2012, 07:52 AM   #6
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DarkStar, I am totally confused now.

While there are CC messages recorded, there are no automation points written. In fact, I don't seem to be able to get it to record automation points, just CC data. Your post implies (but doesn't say explicitly) that I can't use the CC data to control the plugin's depth on playback, thus I can't use my mod wheel for this; is this correct? The Melda documentation says I should be able to and if this is true then this is a Reaper issue and not the plugin's fault.

When you refer to "VST parameter automation" you mean non-CC data, in other words, control points, right? The whole point of this is to have midi notes and linked depth data so that if I move the midi notes the depth data moves with them - I can do this with CC information, thanks to the post you made last week explaining this. If I have to do this with a control point lane then the two are not automatically linked and if I move the midi notes the control points stay where they are, once again making Reaper a poor choice for realtime music making.

I'm really not trying to pick on Reaper as in many ways it's really an excellent tool, but I do have to say that it seems like a tool that is designed for non-musicians. I'm guessing that the developers are programmers first and musicians second; WAY second.

I just tried doing this with the automation set for READ and it recorded CC data but no automation points.

This isn't working. What is the exact setup I would need to do this? Obviously I am in over my depth here. Here's what I want to do:

1. Record midi notes (no problem)
2. After getting the notes right and the timing on the notes right I want to add vibrato gradually (like you would while playing) and in a musical fashion - for this I need to use a real time controller of some sort; inputting disparate points does not get the music feeling that I want.
3. If necessary, I want to be able to cut and/or copy the notes and vibrato data so I can move it to a new location. I don't want to have to go in again and add control points by hand.

Thanks for the replies.
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Old 11-29-2012, 08:05 AM   #7
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i would do the following:

After you have recorded the midi, insert the plugin, move the parameter you want to automate, click on the "param"-buttion on the top right of the plugin, click "learn", move the mod-wheel and click ok.

Click "param" again and click "show track envelope".

Arm the envelope and put it in write-mode, hit play and then simply write the envelope by moving the mod-wheel.

This sounds very complicated but only takes a about 15 seconds to set up once you have done it a few times.

There is and option somewhere that says "envelope-points move with media items" somewhere that will make the envelope move and copy with the items. I changed the default toolbar so im not sure its there by default, but i have a button to toggle it on and off.

Hope that makes some kind of sense
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Old 11-29-2012, 08:41 AM   #8
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Quote:
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i would do the following:

After you have recorded the midi, insert the plugin, move the parameter you want to automate, click on the "param"-buttion on the top right of the plugin, click "learn", move the mod-wheel and click ok.

Click "param" again and click "show track envelope".

Arm the envelope and put it in write-mode, hit play and then simply write the envelope by moving the mod-wheel.

This sounds very complicated but only takes a about 15 seconds to set up once you have done it a few times.

There is and option somewhere that says "envelope-points move with media items" somewhere that will make the envelope move and copy with the items. I changed the default toolbar so im not sure its there by default, but i have a button to toggle it on and off.

Hope that makes some kind of sense
Hey, I tried this and it worked! Putting this in my scrapbook (which is getting pretty big, I have to say). I can live with this for now and I'm looking for that "envelope points move with media items" although it seems to me that you'd have to split the midi item for this to work. EDIT: foujnd it - it's on the main toolbar and mine was already selected. And it does work, although as I guessed you have to split the midi item and then you can move it although you can't move the notes in the midi editor and have the data follow.

But at least I can work with this. Thanks so much!

Last edited by Tyrannocaster; 11-29-2012 at 08:48 AM.
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Old 11-29-2012, 09:03 AM   #9
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I had thought that you had got the VST envelope automation written to the envelope lane. But I was wrong - please ignore my post, it only confuses things.

Yes, with MIDI CC messages mapped (within the VST) to a control, then you should be fine with having those messages inside MIDI clips.
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Old 11-29-2012, 11:29 AM   #10
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Yes, with MIDI CC messages mapped (within the VST) to a control, then you should be fine with having those messages inside MIDI clips.
?

I can not get CC messages to do this. Could you please explain your comment because I am just not understanding this. I CAN get it to work by the method described above, but I cannot get messages inside a midi clip to change the depth. The automation data resides in its own track, independent of the midi items.

I can get CC data from the mod wheel translated into automation (see above) in Reaper but it's not inside a midi clip.
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Old 11-29-2012, 02:49 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrannocaster View Post
I guess that's what's up, anyway. I'm using Melda Productions Vibrato VST plugin and I want to use my synth's mod wheel to control the depth. I already recorded the midi notes passage and now I'm adding CC data.
Let's go back to square 1.

You've got the MIDI notes recorded and your mapped MVibrato's Depth to the ModWheel (CC#01) on its MIDI Settings window? As in:



Set the Record Mode on the track to Record MIDI overdub/replace. Click Record and. when the existing MIDI clip is reached, twiddle the ModWheel on your MIDI controller. The CC messages should be recorded in the MIDI clip, you should see the Depth control moving in MVibrato and hear the effect too.

Here's the simple project I just created (also attached):

Big pic: https://i.imgur.com/WY4pk.png

Track 1 uses MIDI CC messages, recorded into the MIDI clip. Track 2 shows the alternative method - using the Depth VSTi parameter Envelope lane, with the ModWheel mapped to it.
Attached Files
File Type: zip DS_MVibrato_01.zip (5.0 KB, 120 views)
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Old 11-30-2012, 07:39 AM   #12
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Thanks. I just did exactly what you suggested but I do not get the same results. Using only the midi learn from the plugin (as per your picture) I overdubbed some data. I did get midi CC messages recorded, but nothing I did had any effect on the notes. The vibrato stayed at the default setting the plugin uses no matter what the mod wheel (or the cc messages did).

I have not found the plugin's midi learn feature to be worth squat - at least, it hasn't done anything for me yet. However, Reaper's learn function at least lets me capture data.

Interestingly, your .rpp file works fine on my system but I can't duplicate the effect. I'm trying to figure out what is different about the plugin setup but so far haven't identified it. I'm attaching the .rpp file from my test. (Track 3 is the one I just recorded some data on but got no vibrato.) I am using Kontakt 5 to play the Campbell Origins files.

So far, the only way I can get this to work is via the method j79 described, which captures points for a separate depth track. (Track 4 on my test, muted here, but it works.)
Attached Files
File Type: rpp AncientTest.RPP (66.1 KB, 263 views)
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Old 11-30-2012, 09:29 AM   #13
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^^^^
Almost there. (or as the Rolling Stones sing (at £650 a ticket) "It's just a click away").

On track 3, you need to Enable the Controllers in MVibrato's MIDI Settings window (as in my big screenshot above, but not "arrowed"). Then it should respond to the ModWheel MIDI CC messages.

--------------
The great thing about MeldaProduction's Controllers is that you can use the Values fields to map the CC message values 0...128 onto a small part of the range of the target knob and thus achieve fine, precise control
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Last edited by DarkStar; 11-30-2012 at 10:44 AM.
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Old 11-30-2012, 10:33 AM   #14
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^^^^
Almost there. (or as the Rolling Stones sing (at £650 as ticket) "It's just a click away").

On track 3, you need to Enable the Controllers in MVibrato's MIDI Settings window (as in my big screenshot above, but not "arrowed"). Then it should respond to the ModWheel MIDI CC messages.
It doesn't seem to. I just tried it again and while it records information the information has no effect on the plugin. I thought it was already enabled (it looks just like the one in your picture); if I click "Enable" again everything greys out - I can't tell if that means it is enabled or not - I would assume not? However it works (enabled or not), it doesn't make any difference which setting I use - no vibrato. Anyway, the plugin has whatever amount of vibrato you set it for with its depth knob - not what you are setting via the mod wheel.

I like the Melda plugins a lot but this is pretty user unfriendly. :-(
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Old 11-30-2012, 10:43 AM   #15
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In that case, I really do not understand.

When I loaded the test project that you uploaded, "Controllers" in MVibrato on track 03 was not enabled. When I enabled it and clicked Play in Reaper I could see the Depth knob on mVibrato's GUI changing quite happily.

I can only suggest that you take my uploaded project, duplicate the track, and add Kontakt 5 and your MIDI clips to it and go from there.

MeldaProduction's products are very powerful and have many possibilities but, I agree, can take a while to understand fully. One big plus is that once I had worked out the basics for one plug-in, I could use that knowledge on all the others.
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Old 11-30-2012, 12:39 PM   #16
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In that case, I really do not understand.

I can only suggest that you take my uploaded project, duplicate the track, and add Kontakt 5 and your MIDI clips to it and go from there.
That's a good idea. I can also make a template from your track, which might be an easy way to do this. But I'm intrigued as to why it came up not-enabled on your machine; I just checked it again - the exact same file I uploaded - and it is enabled (if I understand the visual cue of options not being grayed out). Obviously something is funky. I had a problem with this plugin a while back where the GUI didn't appear at all and I ended up reinstalling the Melda Production plugins I have, wjhich fixed that. I suppose the plugin itself might be corrupt, but since it seems to work with your .rpp file that doesn't seem likely.

Thanks for the help!
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