v4.02pre2 - August 7 2011

[mabian]

Originally Posted by schwa

For pooled item color, maybe what makes the most sense is to add an action to specifically color all pooled MIDI items, similar to the existing action to color all takes recorded in the same recording pass.

Agreed, so that the possibility to leave different pooled item instances with their own color remains available.

- Mario

[Justin]

Originally Posted by airon

Nice redesign of those project settings. I find stuff quicker. Thumbs up.

Possible bug:

Item mix behavior in the Advanced tab

Always stays the same on "Enclosed items replace earlier items", not matter what I set there.

Thanks, fixing!

[Justin]

Originally Posted by beatbybit

based on an A/B test that Zee sent me, i would. 24bit integer sounded "sharper" (in a good, non harsh way) to me.

quick blind test is all i did, but i definitely hear a difference between his 24int and 64fp renders. i only can trust that NO other things changed in the mix.

If it is the same mix I heard, the plugins used also processed things differently each time, so it's hard to say what causes what...

[Justin]

Originally Posted by timlloyd

It just comes across (to me) as a bit of an underhanded way of showing that floating-point is a good idea ... but in an unfair way rather than via an informative technical explanation.

It isn't making any value judgment -- we do believe that generally speaking keeping as much information as possible in a signal is a *good* thing, but then again good/bad is subjective, and if for a particular user/taste throwing away information below a certain noise level is advantageous, we want to offer that. It has very very little impact on REAPER's size, and small performance implications when enabled (none when disabled), so it's somewhat of a "no-brainer."

[SEA]

Originally Posted by Justin

Indeed. I like 12 bit mode, actually.

Hey Just!

Could you please explain this? Isn't the goal (as far as current tech goes) to mix down to 16 bit for CD? I would love to mix in 24bit or 32, but for now 16bit seems to be they standard.

What's your thoughts?

SEA

[Justin]

Originally Posted by SEA

Hey Just!

Could you please explain this? Isn't the goal (as far as current tech goes) to mix down to 16 bit for CD? I would love to mix in 24bit or 32, but for now 16bit seems to be they standard.

What's your thoughts?

SEA

Just a lo-fi obsession... I've also been reading Philip K Dick, which is somewhat the literary equivalent, IMO.

[Mercado_Negro]

I heard "no-brainer", where? where?

[drew]

Originally Posted by schwa

For pooled item color, maybe what makes the most sense is to add an action to specifically color all pooled MIDI items, similar to the existing action to color all takes recorded in the same recording pass.

Not sure an action is needed since you could easily achieve that using the existing action to select all the pooled items with current and then color them that way.

I was really saying it because if take name is now deemed to be automatically common to all pooled items then color (being visual only) could helpfully behave in a similar automatic manner, whereas anything affecting the audio would not automatically change, as bbb & Mercado_Negro also seem to feel (Hope I've not misrepresented you guys!)

___

On the bug front, it looks like move/copy to project folder in the Project Bay are not updating the path field immediately, which makes it look like it hasn't worked. Not sure if bugs should now go back in general forum but maybe that's worth a mention here! Thanks

[SEA]

Originally Posted by Justin

Just a lo-fi obsession... I've also been reading Philip K Dick, which is somewhat the literary equivalent, IMO.

Ahh!!!!

Well... if one mixes to 12bit, can you burn it to a CD and play it?

[DuraMorte]

Originally Posted by SEA

Ahh!!!!
Well... if one mixes to 12bit, can you burn it to a CD and play it?

If my knowledge is correct, you'd have to convert it to 16 bit for the player to read it properly, but the audio would remain unchanged (the extra four bits would just be zeroes).

[timlloyd]

Well ... I did a comparison between all of the modes and the 24int file sounded a little bit different, and not in a good way (i *think* ... I have to admit to not bothering to abx it ... yet ... ). The resulting difference signal was exactly as expected, sounding like dither and quantisation distortion-ridden "ghosting" of the music peeking through the dither ...

It's just silly imo. Listen to an 8int render. Yep, sounds like utter shite. Listen to a 12int render ... sounds bad in the exact same way, just less so. Listen to a 16int render ... again, sounds bad in the same way but less so. It's perfectly sensical to extrapolate this to 24int and 39int, because the same artifacts exist in each case, just to lessening degrees relative to the music.

[Justin]

Originally Posted by DuraMorte

If my knowledge is correct, you'd have to convert it to 16 bit for the player to read it properly, but the audio would remain unchanged (the extra four bits would just be zeroes).

Right, though in this case if you have the 12 bit mode set, it just forces the output of each non-master track to 12 bit, so if you have master FX or the master fader set to some value then you might have activity in the lower bits as well.

[Mercado_Negro]

Does this mean I can do some SP1200 kinda trick on drums and get that lo-fi goodness and then reimport that loop in a brand new 64bit project?

[timlloyd]

Originally Posted by SEA

Hey Just!

Could you please explain this? Isn't the goal (as far as current tech goes) to mix down to 16 bit for CD? I would love to mix in 24bit or 32, but for now 16bit seems to be they standard.

What's your thoughts?

I know I'm not Justin ... but no, no, no, no! Don't mix at 16int! Processing bit depth, the bit depth of your audio files, and your destination bit depth are different things. You need to process at a higher bit depth than your audio bit depth and destination bit depth so that you don't have a mix riddled in distortion resulting from the truncation of data.

Mix down to 16bit, that's fine. But please, please don't mix at 16 bit ... that's just insane unless you happen to really love the sound of bit-crushers ... on everything.

///

See, this is the kind of thing some people are going to think when they see this option ... it's a land mine JCS.

Unless I completely misinterpreted SEA, which I very much hope is the case.

[DuraMorte]

Originally Posted by Justin

Right, though in this case if you have the 12 bit mode set, it just forces the output of each non-master track to 12 bit, so if you have master FX or the master fader set to some value then you might have activity in the lower bits as well.

Hmmm... interesting. Thanks for the clarification.

[dub3000]

I guess my main worry is that it'll lead to a whole new batch of 300+ post "DAW sound quality" threads on gearslutz.

[beatbybit]

Originally Posted by Mercado_Negro

Does this mean I can do some SP1200 kinda trick on drums and get that lo-fi goodness and then reimport that loop in a brand new 64bit project?

what about its D/A?

[dub3000]

Full disclosure - I actually do love the odd bitcrusher here and there (shameless plug: see the paranoia_mangler js effect....)

[Mercado_Negro]

Originally Posted by beatbybit

what about its D/A?

Dang! Missed that part... can we have a D/A emu for this?

Anyways, I'll surely try that soon and see what kind of crazy stuff I can get out of it... experimenting! love it.

[timlloyd]

I must be dreaming ... y'all are craAzy Sorry for the negativity, I'm just not hip enough to want native bit-crushing on every track

[BenK-msx]

yehs as Justin said this is essentially about the 'output quality' of each track in a project and therefore how they mix with other tracks, not the 'rendering output',.

e.g you can render the master output of an '8bit' project at 24bit 96khz if you like. won't sound any better though..

if you're rendering at a higher rate than the 'mix-rate' u may wish to dither, but thats where i yield to experts.

the 8 bit and later 12 bit modes on my amiga did me fine for years, plus recorded onto 'cassette tape', for vintage smearing of the digital-fizz

[Justin]

Originally Posted by timlloyd

I know I'm not Justin ... but no, no, no, no! Don't mix at 16int!

I agree with timlloyd here -- I think 99% of the people should mix with REAPER's default settings 99.99% of the time.

See, this is the kind of thing some people are going to think when they see this option ... it's a land mine JCS.

I also agree, however unlike a land mine I very much hope that nobody will ever be physically injured. Maybe some warning text like "Really, leave this on 64FP unless you can actually calculate what the noise floor difference of these different modes will be."

Full disclosure - I actually do love the odd bitcrusher here and there (shameless plug: see the paranoia_mangler js effect....)

[Xenakios]

Originally Posted by Mercado_Negro

Does this mean I can do some SP1200 kinda trick on drums and get that lo-fi goodness and then reimport that loop in a brand new 64bit project?

IIRC the "special" 12-bit sound was about something else too besides the bit depth being 12 bit. There was some kind of delta encoding involved, at least on some hardwares.

[Justin]

Originally Posted by Mercado_Negro

Does this mean I can do some SP1200 kinda trick on drums and get that lo-fi goodness and then reimport that loop in a brand new 64bit project?

Or you could just use a bit crusher, too..

[timlloyd]

Originally Posted by Justin

I also agree, however unlike a land mine I very much hope that nobody will ever be physically injured. Maybe some warning text like "Really, leave this on 64FP unless you can actually calculate what the noise floor difference of these different modes will be."

maybe a pop-up dialog ...

[IMG]http://img23.**************/img23/8079/lolsnt.png[/IMG]

... Korn weren't sure, and they did it anyway ... that's what their song "Shift that Mantissa" is about ...

///

yours is better

[bmanic]

v4.02pre2 - August 7 2011
+ Media explorer: added action to close media explorer

Awesome!!

[bmanic]

Originally Posted by Xenakios

IIRC the "special" 12-bit sound was about something else too besides the bit depth being 12 bit. There was some kind of delta encoding involved, at least on some hardwares.

You guys are forgetting that an AD/DA converter has a bunch of ANALOGUE components as well. These are by far the biggest factor when it comes to "the sound" of an MPC60 (we got one in mint condition in the studio). That together with the digital part (bitrate and samplerate).

Simply changing the bit and samplerate with a bitcrusher plugin will NOT sound even remotely like an MPC or Akai S900 (got one of those as well).

Cheers!
bManic

[Mercado_Negro]

Guys, I was having fun, it was a joke, hence the smiley

see?

It's Sunday, have fun.

[BenK-msx]

https://stash.reaper.fm/9343/drum-pur...Bnonlinear.mp3

for a quick test i set project to 8bit, and placed liteons non-linear js plug at end of each track and on the master -
it was 6 tracks of a mic'd drum kit usual setup sounds courtesy user purdy. the non-linear plug and its sat' help take the spikey edge off things i think.

doesn't sound tooo shitty, so if you're into that its marginally quicker than putting a bit reducer on each track..

[Mercado_Negro]

Originally Posted by BenK-msx

https://stash.reaper.fm/9343/drum-pur...Bnonlinear.mp3

for a quick test i set project to 8bit, and placed liteons non-linear js plug at end of each track and on the master -
it was 6 tracks of a mic'd drum kit usual setup sounds courtesy user purdy. the non-linear plug and its sat' help take the spikey edge off things i think.

doesn't sound tooo shitty, so if you're into that its marginally quicker than putting a bit reducer on each track..

There's sand all over it!

[Kenny Gioia]

Originally Posted by timbralzoom

+ Project settings: reorganization, more sensible layout hopefully

Ouch.

That would really suck if you're just finishing up Reaper 4 Explained tutorials and the "Project Settings" window just visually changed.

[AftersixProductions]

Originally Posted by BenK-msx

https://stash.reaper.fm/9343/drum-pur...Bnonlinear.mp3

for a quick test i set project to 8bit, and placed liteons non-linear js plug at end of each track and on the master -
it was 6 tracks of a mic'd drum kit usual setup sounds courtesy user purdy. the non-linear plug and its sat' help take the spikey edge off things i think.

doesn't sound tooo shitty, so if you're into that its marginally quicker than putting a bit reducer on each track..

Thanks for that.

Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia

Ouch.

That would really suck if you're just finishing up Reaper 4 Explained tutorials and the "Project Settings" window just visually changed.

lol =/

Say it ain't so.

[Kenny Gioia]

Originally Posted by AftersixProductions

Say it ain't so.

We're thinking of calling it "Reaper 4.00 - 4.01 Explained".

Reaper 4.02 Explained will be out by Christmas.

[musicbynumbers]

Originally Posted by BenK-msx

yeh sounds like my old 8bit drumloop samples funnily enough - cool.

now a 'per item pitch rate adjust' (in the old sense) capability in reaper would finish the old skool vibe options off nicely...

If i understand you correctly in item properties you can un-tick a box in item properties to allow time stretching an item to also relatively change it's pitch like a sampler would.

[BenK-msx]

well, close, it's as we can do now with that option and the playrate envelope, but to be able to do that on a per item basis.

the per item pitch env is using timestretch, the (old)request is to just change rate, therefeore asjusting length as has been standard procedure in samplers, trackers and the such since the dawn of digital audio i'd imagine!

[Kenny Gioia]

Originally Posted by BenK-msx

well, close, it's as we can do now with that option and the playrate envelope, but to be able to do that on a per item basis.

Go to Item Properties.

It's in there.

Uncheck "Preserve Pitch when Changing Rate".

Unless I'm misunderstanding you.

[AftersixProductions]

Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia

We're thinking of calling it "Reaper 4.00 - 4.01 Explained".

Reaper 4.02 Explained will be out by Christmas.

lol sounds good either way. Just unfortunate at the same time.

With Reaper, you really have to think of different ways to approach even the Tutorial videos, consider things are changing all the time.

Maybe treat these series like those books or movies with multiple endings, and have the users decide which path is the best for them.

[Xenakios]

Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia

Go to Item Properties.

It's in there.

Uncheck "Preserve Pitch when Changing Rate".

Unless I'm misunderstanding you.

No, this won't work since there's no way to automate the per-item/take playrate either.

[BenK-msx]

guess i should've been clearer:

change rate over time. i.e a per item pitch/rate envelope no timestretch.


heres the FR recently ressurected after clarification of it's non-existance.

http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=1410

run, vote..

[slops]

Originally Posted by dub3000

Full disclosure - I actually do love the odd bitcrusher here and there (shameless plug: see the paranoia_mangler js effect....)

...wtf.

how long has this existed?
i completely missed out on this one.

this thing sounds ridiculous.