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08-20-2013, 05:47 PM
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#81
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: The Reflection Free Zone
Posts: 3,026
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LugNut
My other partition died...and i couldnt renumber my forum password..AND i couldnt get the site to resend me my pass^^...and so on...
Guido...er Lug
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Damn, bad luck, my condolences on your partition. I was hoping it wasn't something so painful... and your punctuation gave you away ^^ (as well as your style with REAPER MIDI)
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07-10-2014, 10:47 PM
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#82
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11
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Ignore Project Tempo
Hey,
I'm wondering if anyone knows a trick for recording Midi so that it's written as an item already set to 'ignore project tempo'.
On projects where the last thing you do is tempo map, using SWS actions to select all your midi and set it to 'ignore project tempo' and then go about mapping seems to lead to to fairly stable results. If however, you record Midi on an already tempo-mapped song, 'ignore project tempo' will destroy the original timing.
I thought maybe I could create a blank midi item, set it to ignore project tempo, and then overdub Midi into it. Unfortunately, this doesn't quite work.
There are some instructions on this thread that can work for after the Midi has been recorded, but at the moment it seems a bit lengthy a process to run on multiple takes. http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=118061&page=3
I've voted for the FR mentioned earlier in this thread, as that would solve this more elegantly.
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07-11-2014, 02:04 PM
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#83
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Oblivion
Posts: 10,254
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@benben i suppose you could enable alternate recording actions and then make a macro to stop recording and apply ingore project tempo to all recorded items (it should only affect the MIDI ones).
i still can't understand why MIDI and audio items can't both just follow the tempo map and timebase correctly. obviously that's the way it should be. instead, MIDI items have their own rules that are unpredictable and defy logic.
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07-11-2014, 03:31 PM
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#84
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PooFox
@benben i suppose you could enable alternate recording actions and then make a macro to stop recording and apply ingore project tempo to all recorded items (it should only affect the MIDI ones).
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Just to clarify: setting a Midi item to ignore project tempo if the Midi was recorded after the project has been tempo mapped will destroy original timing. On the forum I linked to above, Breeder gives some instructions on how to avoid this, but it seems like it would be hard to turn into a macro:
Quote:
Mark tempo markers around said item and select it
Run SWS/BR: Delete tempo marker and preserve position and length of selected items (including MIDI events)
Run SWS/BR: Enable "Ignore project tempo" for selected MIDI items (use tempo at item's start)
Copy the item
Undo to before deleting tempo markers
Delete selected item
Paste your item in it's place
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07-14-2014, 04:09 PM
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#85
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 104
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Surely the Midi timebases should behave in exactly the same way as the audio timebases, ie.
- Beats (position, length, rate) - stretches the item when the tempo is changed and retains its position on the beat based grid
- Beats (position only) - item is not stretched by tempo adjustment and retains its position on the beat based grid (the snap offset dictates which part of the item retains its position)
- Time - The item's snap offset will occur at the same time regardless of tempo settings and will not be stretched by tempo adjustment
This is how midi items should behave, I was quite worried when I discovered that they don't
I think the original tempo thing should probably be implemented into the item properties menu for both midi and audio (and video) items
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07-15-2014, 01:21 PM
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#86
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Oblivion
Posts: 10,254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimU
Surely the Midi timebases should behave in exactly the same way as the audio timebases, ie.
This is how midi items should behave, I was quite worried when I discovered that they don't
I think the original tempo thing should probably be implemented into the item properties menu for both midi and audio (and video) items
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i agree. biggest and most overlooked problem in reaper since i started using it. took me some months of investigation and frustration to even pinpoint the source of the problem and even then almost no one would chime in on it.
guess using midi, audio and tempo maps together is still considered "fringe" and not a critical thing to fix. go figure.
i gave up on tempo maps because of this. i just adjust the playrate envelope instead. it's actually better anyway because the tempo envelope can't do any curves and so it's hard to make it sound natural@.
@benben - i think it's going to be a hard workaround. what i would do is just render the project temporarily and record in a new project without a tempo map. hopefully you can just insert the recorded midi without problem. and until it's fixed i'd recommend using the playrate envelope while working. at the end you can convert it to a tempo map (i think?). you can just use tempo markers for time sig changes, since too many tempo shifts over the length of an item will screw things up. otherwise you probably need to chop your midi items so they start an end at tempo markers.
Last edited by foxAsteria; 07-15-2014 at 01:29 PM.
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07-28-2014, 02:01 PM
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#87
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Quebec
Posts: 51
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ignoring tempo for midi items
People on the Reaper forum have been complaining about this for at least two years and nothing's been done yet on the devs side. Thanks to Breeders for is new SWS actions. After years of frustration, finally something helpful.
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04-24-2015, 05:57 PM
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#88
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 47
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Where are all the people that would get mad
I came from cubase, and I don't recall ever having much issue with midi, and audio working together properly. Only reason I stopped using it was because it was difficult to import tempo maps into cubase (you couldn't just drag them in).
I'm curious if this is a big problem for 2 years, where are all the people that prefer the midi tempo changes messing all the audio up.
I wonder if they prefer it like this?
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04-24-2015, 06:31 PM
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#89
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Oblivion
Posts: 10,254
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i don't think many understand timebase or try to combine audio, midi and tempo maps yet. otherwise, i'm not sure why so few complain about this glaring problem. at least it's manageable now.
just not sure why it's not default for midi items. bit of a pain to remember to run that breeder action when you need to and if you forget it can be a huge hassle to fix. also have no idea in what situation the current behavior would be desirable or expected.
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04-24-2015, 07:10 PM
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#90
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,173
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Did you see, in the Pre forum, that they kind of put their foot down on this? They also changed the items to be purely Beats(plr) behavior unless you check the box, or use SWS or whatever. No one said "woot."
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04-24-2015, 08:04 PM
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#91
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Oblivion
Posts: 10,254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FnA
Did you see, in the Pre forum, that they kind of put their foot down on this? They also changed the items to be purely Beats(plr) behavior unless you check the box, or use SWS or whatever. No one said "woot."
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i did notice that but i couldn't tell how it was beneficial. we still need to manually change the item properties for every midi item to respond to timebase changes.
i'm glad it's getting attention from the devs, but all we need is an option to enable the "ignore project tempo" setting for new midi items. so far i haven't heard an argument against that.
you can still wind up with a serious mess if you aren't constantly vigilant about it. happened to me again last week and i had to spend about 4 hours fixing hundreds of midi item positions by hand. i just don't see the point in the current behavior or how this option would be impossible to add.
point is: the "ignore project tempo" option fixes the problem. midi items and audio will both respond correctly and consistently to timebase. so why isn't it enabled by default for new MIDI items?
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04-24-2015, 09:38 PM
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#92
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxAsteria
i did notice that but i couldn't tell how it was beneficial.
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No one did, at least not to the extent that was hoped for. Maybe it eliminates a portion of the confusion in having 3 behaviors, two of which didn't work right. I haven't studied the new behavior enough to comment on it. See, I use Beats(PLR) projects to start projects. (Personally speaking) Most of the MIDI should adapt to tempo there. I use time timebase tracks to record audio. I'd like to have Time or Beats(PO) timebase MIDI tracks/items that behave like corresponding timebase audio. Maybe it's too radical to change.
Quote:
Originally Posted by foxAsteria
i'm glad it's getting attention from the devs
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I got the impression that it won't necessarily be getting any more. Maybe...
Quote:
Originally Posted by foxAsteria
but all we need is an option to enable the "ignore project tempo" setting for new midi items. so far i haven't heard an argument against that....
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...point is: the "ignore project tempo" option fixes the problem. midi items and audio will both respond correctly and consistently to timebase. so why isn't it enabled by default for new MIDI items?
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They would not respond correctly to Beats(PLR) if it was global. Position might, but length and rate wouldn't. Maybe the majority would accept a global option. I don't think I would enable it. On Time and Beats(PO) tracks only(or default in those project timebases) maybe.
I don't want to sound opposed to improvements. Maybe we can get some kind of options. Even if you got what you say above, I guess it wouldn't HURT me really. I think...
Also, I don't have a case ready to present at the moment, but I think there's problems even with the Ignore Tempo feature. Things that cross time sig changes and so on.
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04-24-2015, 09:48 PM
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#93
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Oblivion
Posts: 10,254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FnA
I think there's problems even with the Ignore Tempo feature. Things that cross time sig changes and so on.
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i think that might actually be one thing the fix fixed. seems to be working correctly with gradual tempo changes and tempo changes mid-item. if i set midi items to ignore project tempo i can change the project timebase and they respond just like audio for any timebase. i just don't like having to do it manually; i'm constantly creating new midi items and sometimes i forget. too much room for error.
i think before the change they were locked to beats (position only). so the change is definitely an improvement. not quite there yet though...
Last edited by foxAsteria; 04-24-2015 at 10:02 PM.
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04-24-2015, 10:47 PM
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#94
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,173
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Yeah, I've been doing kind of simple things lately. Not totally on top of current developments. I do get nutty with the MIDI sometimes.
"too much room for error." I can't argue with that. Well, Don't put the torch away just yet, I suppose.
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06-04-2015, 04:42 PM
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#95
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Oblivion
Posts: 10,254
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Bumping here as well. According to Breeder, the ignore project tempo actions can't be made to work correctly on pooled MIDI items, particularly where there are gradual tempo shifts. I had recently noticed using the actions on pooled MIDI was altering the unselected MIDI items and submitted a bug report to SWS:
https://github.com/Jeff0S/sws/issues...ment-108874649
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01-17-2016, 07:07 PM
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#96
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hamish
I just did a post graduate course on MIDI, where we analysed, edited and wrote a bunch of sequences. I was the only one using REAPER, with others on Logic, Pro Tools and Cubase. I was able to do anything and everything that everyone else could, and one of those things was a pretty stiff tempo mapping and quantization exercise.
When we compared notes, only the guy on Cubase 7 was able to do it more easily than me. Cubase has 'linear' (REAPER: 'time') and 'musical' (REAPER: 'beats') mode for the timeline. It seems the locking of the midi data happens behind the scenes when you switch time mode.
So I'm pretty sure REAPER could do that like this:
1) insert the correct tempo into the item field at the time it was recorded (new feature)
2) 'ignore' (globally on each item) when the user switches project timebase
(Then you map tempos - the sequencer still needs a human to decide where the bars are)
3) 'glue' (re-set delta time for events) and 'un ignore' on return to beats mode.
Cubase was even better though in that you could just click-drag on barlines. But hey, even 2) above would be a start. Oh yeah and then refine the 'glue' action so we don't lose item colours, item notes, or close the MIDI editor and those annoying things.
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Could not have said it better!
I am getting frustrated and considering moving to Cubase actually. Although I think Reaper may do better in terms of optimizing plugin CPU usage, so I am still glad I own it.
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03-18-2016, 12:31 AM
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#97
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Oblivion
Posts: 10,254
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So damn sick of crazy shit happening to MIDI items. It's the worst.
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05-07-2016, 01:24 PM
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#98
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: UK
Posts: 365
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxAsteria
So damn sick of crazy shit happening to MIDI items. It's the worst.
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Have also voted to add this as default ( global ).
It just seems like it hasn't been thought through for this situation. hard to sort out everything with so many possibilities but this needs sorting i think.
Ive had loads of uh ??? moments regarding reaper default settings. so far been able to change most but this seems like a genuine issue.
thanks for bringing this to my attention with at least a work around ( far from ideal i know )
cheers
Last edited by hermitcrab; 05-08-2016 at 04:40 AM.
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07-14-2016, 10:26 AM
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#99
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Glasgow
Posts: 521
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Bump!
Back here again after a recent project with MIDI items recorded at free tempo really brought it to the front of my mind. Stung by exactly the weak spot, moving about MIDI items, later realising they've gone out of time. By that point I had no idea about the original tempo. It's quite the thing to remember to tick the "ignore" setting when you're in the middle of a creative flow.
Cheers,
Jennifer
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07-14-2016, 11:46 AM
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#100
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Oblivion
Posts: 10,254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by endorka
?It's quite the thing to remember to tick the "ignore" setting when you're in the middle of a creative flow.
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Exactly! I tried to tuck it into my workflow with a Cycle Action, but since markers have a separate Timebase now, I can still run into problems with them and I have to avoid using gradual tempo transitions altogether:
It's just a timebase switch that ensures the ignore tempo option is set on all MIDI items whenever I switch it. This relies on me being in the habit of checking Timebase when making tempo adjustements, but at least I run into the problem a lot less now with that switch on a toolbar button...
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07-15-2016, 03:11 PM
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#101
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Glasgow
Posts: 521
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Thanks, I'll check that out.
Cheers,
Jennifer
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11-03-2016, 06:49 PM
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#102
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Oblivion
Posts: 10,254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TonE
Then do not use markers, use instead items as markers.
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Yea I've tried HeDa's scripts, but too much native functionality is lost when I depend on them. We should just have an option to link the two project Timebases or similar. Many problems were introduced into my workflow when that change happened.
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07-15-2021, 07:44 AM
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#103
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxAsteria
@benben i suppose you could enable alternate recording actions and then make a macro to stop recording and apply ingore project tempo to all recorded items (it should only affect the MIDI ones).
i still can't understand why MIDI and audio items can't both just follow the tempo map and timebase correctly. obviously that's the way it should be. instead, MIDI items have their own rules that are unpredictable and defy logic.
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Hi Cockos. Please fix this. This is a serious issue with your otherwise otherworldly fantastic DAW. Mike
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07-15-2021, 07:50 AM
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#104
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jesussaddle
Could not have said it better!
I am getting frustrated and considering moving to Cubase actually. Although I think Reaper may do better in terms of optimizing plugin CPU usage, so I am still glad I own it.
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I am moving to Cubase because of frustrations with this with midi items getting messed up and tempo mapping not working consitently. I might come back though. If you can fix this. This must be simple. PLEASE FIX THIS COCKUS OR SOMEHONE. I love Reaper except for these issues.
Mike
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07-16-2021, 02:45 PM
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#105
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 22,754
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I (and probably everyone else who has whined about this previously) agree with you.
I have managed to figure out crude, cumbersome ways round this, but I have recently started once again doing audio and MIDI additional tracks for people who half the time have no idea what the tempo was set at when they recorded their stuff.
And yet here we are at least 8 years after this was first raised with zero results from Justin & Schwa.
I guess they decided that those of us who HAD to do this sort of stuff were determined enough to find a way to bodge it up rather than offering a tidy solution.
Disappointing, but once again points out one of the many minor (and major) niggles about Reaper`s approach to MIDI especially with regard to time management.
Maybe we should threaten to send Justin multiple live, full-grown Llamas unless they spend a little time on this?
__________________
Ici on parles Franglais
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03-07-2023, 06:25 PM
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#106
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2022
Posts: 1,522
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A respectful bump!
What’s the best approach at the moment to dealing with this?
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03-07-2023, 06:43 PM
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#107
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Oblivion
Posts: 10,254
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My method is a cycle action that changes timebase and converts all project MIDI items to "ignore project tempo" at the same time. It's pretty seamless for my purposes.
I think gradual tempo changes are still a bit screwy when using both audio and MIDI so I still avoid them...not sure how things are there these days but it's probably best to define such things before recording instead of after the fact.
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03-07-2023, 06:58 PM
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#108
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2022
Posts: 1,522
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If you mean just changing the project timebase to time and setting all midi to ignore tempo in source properties as well that’s also what I would do. I think glueing after seems important to so the midi will behave as expected. Just checked. Glueing is necessary if you want your midi to conform to future project wide tempo adjustments when the project time base is set to default. Simply unchecking the ignore project tempo box after doing your work, doesn't sort it out.
Edit: Here the best solution I've found after experimenting.
2 custom actions.
MIDI Lock
SWS/BR select all midi items
SWS/BR: Enable "Ignore project tempo" for selected MIDI items preserving time position of MIDI events (use tempo at item's start)
Make necessary changes then run the next custom action.
MIDI Sync
SWS/BR select all midi items
Script: X-Raym_Glue selected items independently.eel
Last edited by skylar_battles; 03-08-2023 at 05:06 PM.
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03-09-2023, 07:22 AM
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#109
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 298
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Will add another +1 here. Consistency (within each timebase option) between audio and MIDI item behaviors, without the workarounds detailed above, would be so very wonderful.
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03-22-2023, 12:35 AM
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#110
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2022
Posts: 1,522
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I did some experimenting with midi and audio that had both gradual and immediate tempo changes.
Think I figured it out!
Audio needs to be set to Beats (Auto-stretch at tempo changes)
Midi stays as default Beats (position, length, rate)
I think that makes because why would stretch markers aren't applicable to midi at that's what the auto stretch timebase is about
I think this is why midi probably always worked fine with tempo changes but the newest timebase for audio items address this.
Last edited by skylar_battles; 03-22-2023 at 03:47 PM.
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