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Old 07-16-2015, 07:53 AM   #1
Studio Tan
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Default Reaper taught me how to do this...Is It Cheating?

First...I am no guitar player. I just have a love for it, am a keyboard and multiple inst. player, and hobbyist.

But Reaper allowed me to slow down the tempo of my piece, and record my guitar at rates that I can actually achieve, allowing me to record things I never could imagine before.

This track: https://soundcloud.com/mididreamer/faster-les-king
is a good example. It is sparse, and I think once you had other things going on in the track, the guitars might actually work.

Main question is: Is this cheating? If I make a great track, am I going to the hall of shame, or can I have a piece of the pie and feel good while I am eating it?

Seems to me the most important part is the Art, and if I am unable to provide what the track needs, or can't pay someone else to do it, you gotta do whatcha gotta do?

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Old 07-16-2015, 07:58 AM   #2
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cheating ??

you are not alone then

http://www2.gibson.com/News-Lifestyl...1210-2012.aspx
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Old 07-16-2015, 08:17 AM   #3
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Yes, that's cheating. Luckily cheating isn't against the rules.
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Old 07-16-2015, 08:19 AM   #4
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I love cheating! I do it all the time. Rules are meant to be broken.
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Old 07-16-2015, 08:36 AM   #5
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as far as I'm concerned there is no cheating. How your productions connect with the listener is the only important thing imo. If the music doesn't connect, start again until it does.;-)
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Old 07-16-2015, 08:47 AM   #6
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There are no rules.

There is no one keeping stats.

Who cares how you acheive your art? It's your art, you can do it any way you like.

If you are happy with the results......you win!
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Old 07-16-2015, 08:55 AM   #7
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you fu*King CHEATER! next thing you're likely to tell us is that you used some damn virtual instrument to create the drums.... D:
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Old 07-16-2015, 09:05 AM   #8
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I do it as well.... and I love it..

I am simply AMAZED the other DAWS do not have this (varispeed). I also have SONAR and when it gets brought up it seems like the consensus is pretty much: "duhhhhh, wha?" they think it's audio stretching, or that its the same thing if you have to "process" it down vs on the fly like Reaper. It's not.

I use it to record by slowing down and I use it all the time to slow songs down to learn parts. It's one of THE BEST things about Reaper.
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Old 07-16-2015, 09:25 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LCipher View Post
I use it to record by slowing down and I use it all the time to slow songs down to learn parts. It's one of THE BEST things about Reaper.
Yes, I've used this Reaper feature to slow down an MP3 file to learn certain licks. Recently I did this to learn the cuts "Armando's Rhumba" and "Night Streets" from Chick Corea's incredible 1976 album My Spanish Heart.

Works perfect!
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Old 07-16-2015, 10:22 AM   #10
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Ask Sir George if it's cheating
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Old 07-16-2015, 11:21 AM   #11
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Music production is purely outcome based. If it comes out well, that is all that matters. How you got there is completely irrelevant.
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Old 07-16-2015, 11:50 AM   #12
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The "Art of Cheating" -prolly should be an awards category for that alone.
Its not the same as claiming the ability to play something as it sounds . Its cool that the OP owns his method and is able to produce the desired result.
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Old 07-16-2015, 12:08 PM   #13
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So long as you never have to play a live show, you'll be OK

Keep on doing what you need to do to get the results you want.
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Old 07-16-2015, 02:30 PM   #14
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hmm.....

as a guitarist... you kinda cheated..

as a songwriter, composer.. anything goes.


but look at it this way. This gives you something to shoot for. The parts you like, you can practice till you can play em like your recording.


There are some artifacts that kind give it away though...like the vibrato. It kinda sounds like my sonicare toothbrush. And a few spots where the phrasing was a bit wierd. No one stumbles through a line with that much urgency lol


I'm no angel. I do my share of punch recordings. Personally, I would feel wierd showing off a tune with sped up guitar lines, but I don't have an issue if this is the direction someone wants to take.

gonna be a bitch when you throw a party and your guests demand you play your song.
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Old 07-16-2015, 02:37 PM   #15
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didn't mean my previous post to seem so critical.. it does sound pretty cool overall
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Old 07-16-2015, 02:37 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Panic View Post
Ask Sir George if it's cheating
Or Lester Polsfuss from Waukesha, Wisconsin, for that matter.
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Old 07-16-2015, 02:41 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dea-man View Post
Yes, I've used this Reaper feature to slow down an MP3 file to learn certain licks. Recently I did this to learn the cuts "Armando's Rhumba" and "Night Streets" from Chick Corea's incredible 1976 album My Spanish Heart.

Works perfect!

Ya for practice it works well.

I tried recording once like this and when i put it back to normal speed my guitar line was out of pitch.. i never pursued it further.


My experience with recording and having the rate not exactly at 1.0 has not been a good one. 2 times I bumped that dam thing to like .996 and didnt realize it and recorded the whole song like that.

Im not sure if Im a fan of that rate slider thing lol

I know you can hide it. And now i will be certain it is not on the transport bar..
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Old 07-16-2015, 02:55 PM   #18
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(condescending voice) You're only cheating yourself.

Seriously though, don't worry about it. 90% of what we do in our DAWs is cheating in some form or another.
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Old 07-16-2015, 03:26 PM   #19
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I don't see it much different than autotune for vocals.

to make it sound more authentic (if thats what you want)

you might have to master slowing your vibrato down.. and set the click to a more granular beat division.

Some things ive found actually harder to play slow.
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Old 07-17-2015, 07:10 AM   #20
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I seem to remember Stefan Grossman say he was so fed up with people copying his guitar work note for note that he recorded a particularly intricate track with a tuned guitar tuned down and then sped up the tape for the album (this in the days before time stretching). Only a few months later lo and behold someone came up after as gig saying that that track was hard but he finally had mastered it!
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Old 07-17-2015, 08:04 AM   #21
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1975, you aren't the first and this song topped the charts...

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Old 07-17-2015, 08:36 AM   #22
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Default I kinda knew this.

I love the replies!

The more I work with Reaper, the more I realize...this technology will allow us to go places we could not have been able to go without it.

And I love the process of seeking it out.

For all those who may say nay....to anything you might wanna do...
WE DON'T HEAR YOU..

Thanks to the creator of this wonderful program (you know who you are),
and all the great fellow community members here.

Peace....
Les King
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Old 07-17-2015, 09:28 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Studio Tan View Post

The more I work with Reaper, the more I realize...this technology will allow us to go places we could not have been able to go without it.
Bandcamp?
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Old 07-17-2015, 09:41 AM   #24
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Default My Fingers Are Old

Hope I Die Before I Get Old

Was my favorite saying! I am 60 now! WTF?

Would someone please tell my brain that no matter how hard I practice, I am now, unfortunately, being limited by the hands of time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by viscofisy View Post
Bandcamp?
I have arthritis, and no matter how much I practice I will never be able to shred like I hear in my head!

So...thanks to this technology...I am still able to maybe get close to what I need to do...and on my own.
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Old 07-17-2015, 09:44 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Studio Tan View Post
Hope I Die Before I Get Old

Was my favorite saying! I am 60 now! WTF?

Would someone please tell my brain that no matter how hard I practice, I am now, unfortunately, being limited by the hands of time.

I have arthritis, and no matter how much I practice I will never be able to shred like I hear in my head!

So...thanks to this technology...I am still able to maybe get close to what I need to do...and on my own.
Most people who make great music make it by doing what they can do, not what they can't ever do. I'd find it wiser to exploit your strengths and use them to present "who you are" to the world; there is only one you and that's what you want to not be scared to expose. That doesn't mean don't try to get better or achieve but still, there are things unique about you that are easy for you that you don't want to overlook along the way.

Possibly a little off topic but wanted to share.
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Last edited by karbomusic; 07-17-2015 at 10:29 AM.
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Old 07-17-2015, 12:56 PM   #26
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There is creating Music - no rules, the result is all that matter.
There is Performing Music - 'hidden playback': cheating. If you show the audience what you play and what you playback, no cheating.
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Old 07-17-2015, 01:56 PM   #27
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Default You people do it too?

And here I thought that I was the only one cheating like that...
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Old 07-17-2015, 05:02 PM   #28
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Heh heh, I haven't read the whole thread, was Les Paul Mentioned?
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Old 07-17-2015, 06:02 PM   #29
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I know that speed metal band Dragonforce does it to save time in the studio. Even Ozzy did it with vox, but I think it was more for the sound effect.

"Cheating" implies there are rules. The only rules in music that I am aware of are the the laws of sound physics. And those are pretty hard to cheat.
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Old 07-17-2015, 10:50 PM   #30
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Quote:
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Heh heh, I haven't read the whole thread, was Les Paul Mentioned?
No kidding, you didn't even read the second post? It was about Les Paul. Have any ADHD Tod

Chuck
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Old 07-18-2015, 05:45 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by martifingers View Post
I seem to remember Stefan Grossman say he was so fed up with people copying his guitar work note for note that he recorded a particularly intricate track with a tuned guitar tuned down and then sped up the tape for the album (this in the days before time stretching). Only a few months later lo and behold someone came up after as gig saying that that track was hard but he finally had mastered it!
That would be an assholey thing to do if that was his purpose for recording it that way. But it seems totally out of character for him to be fed up with people with copying his pieces note for note since that is how people have learned tunes since forever. Especially since Grossman has been one of the most prolific guitar educators who published so many pieces in books, GP magazine, and DVDs.
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Old 07-18-2015, 05:59 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
1975, you aren't the first and this song topped the charts...

Is that really how that lead guitar was done? I have always wondered?

I thought, "Maybe it's a high clavichord or something. I never seriously thought it was a sped up guitar.

Learn something new everyday!
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Old 07-18-2015, 05:59 AM   #33
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I am certain you know that famous saying, "All is fair in love and music."

:-Don
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Old 07-18-2015, 10:04 AM   #34
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That would be an assholey thing to do if that was his purpose for recording it that way. But it seems totally out of character for him to be fed up with people with copying his pieces note for note since that is how people have learned tunes since forever. Especially since Grossman has been one of the most prolific guitar educators who published so many pieces in books, GP magazine, and DVDs.
I know what you mean and I may have the details a bit wrong (or even a lot wrong as it was a long time ago!) I got the impression he was being tongue in cheek and was perhaps more concerned that some people were merely going to gigs to see how the music was played and to slavishly reproduce it rather than listen to the emotional content of his playing. I totally agree that he is a key figure in guitar playing and education. I personally am enormously in his debt even if my playing is , shall we say, rather less accomplished... Note for note is great but good teachers like Grossman would encourage personal expression I think.

Incidentally if you have not seen it youtube have a very fine but sad clip taken of rehearsals with him and John Renbourne shortly before Renbourne died. The playing is as expected very fine indeed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqvUvV-ozNE
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Old 07-18-2015, 10:09 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dea-man View Post
Is that really how that lead guitar was done? I have always wondered?

I thought, "Maybe it's a high clavichord or something. I never seriously thought it was a sped up guitar.

Learn something new everyday!
Yep, it was!

Quote:
The song features a distinctive introduction, in which a recorded guitar solo is rendered at double speed over a normal-speed guitar line in the background. After observing someone else slowing down a tape machine, Richard Finch had the idea of using this technique to create the guitar riff, as a way of adding to the song something "that really keeps the buzz, that really keeps the excitement going all the way through without being too artificial sounding." Finch states that he was "always doing weird science" in those days, referring to his various experiments with sound.
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Old 07-18-2015, 10:20 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by martifingers View Post
I know what you mean and I may have the details a bit wrong (or even a lot wrong as it was a long time ago!) I got the impression he was being tongue in cheek and was perhaps more concerned that some people were merely going to gigs to see how the music was played and to slavishly reproduce it rather than listen to the emotional content of his playing. I totally agree that he is a key figure in guitar playing and education. I personally am enormously in his debt even if my playing is , shall we say, rather less accomplished... Note for note is great but good teachers like Grossman would encourage personal expression I think.

Incidentally if you have not seen it youtube have a very fine but sad clip taken of rehearsals with him and John Renbourne shortly before Renbourne died. The playing is as expected very fine indeed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqvUvV-ozNE
Understood.

I've seen that video and Renbourne looks just so haggard. I also learned a lot from their early pieces. Still have a bunch of Grossman's columns clipped out of Guitar Player circa early 80s.
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Old 07-18-2015, 10:25 AM   #37
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I seem to remember Stefan Grossman say he was so fed up with people copying his guitar work note for note that he recorded a particularly intricate track
This is "possibly" why Led Zeppelin recorded black dog. They decided to record a tune that cover bands would have a hard time playing. Might just be folklore though...

Quote:
Although it has an apparently simple drum pattern, the song's complex, shifting time signature was intended to thwart cover bands from playing the song.[citation needed] Jones originally wanted the song recorded in 6/8 time but realised it was too complex to reproduce live.[15] In live performances, John Bonham eliminated the 5/4 variation so that Plant could perform his a cappella vocal interludes and then have the instruments return together synchronised.[16] If the volume is turned up loud enough, Bonham can be heard tapping his sticks together before each riff. Page explained this in an interview with Guitar World magazine in 1993

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Dog_(song)
Another off topic but interesting point...

Quote:
Page also discussed how he achieved his guitar sound on the track:

We put my Les Paul through a direct box, and from there into a mic channel. We used the mic amp of the mixing board to get distortion. Then we ran it through two Urei 1176 Universal compressors in series. Then each line was triple-tracked. Curiously, I was listening to that track when we were reviewing the tapes and the guitars almost sound like an analog synthesizer.[17]

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Old 07-18-2015, 11:12 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
This is "possibly" why Led Zeppelin recorded black dog. They decided to record a tune that cover bands would have a hard time playing. Might just be folklore though...



Another off topic but interesting point...
Quoted all over the place but a myth according to http://www.songfacts.com/detail.php?id=334
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Old 07-18-2015, 11:13 AM   #39
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I've done it for a couple things, but I honestly do it the other direction almost as often. Like I did a cover of the Sonics "Strichnine" that I wanted to be really slow, but I just couldn't keep it together, so I played the main rythm part on my Nashville-tuned guitar (basically an octave up) closer to the original speed and then slowed it down to half time with preserve pitch off and it worked great and sounded a whole lot like a standard-tuned guitar.

One thing to keep in mind with electric guitar especially is that the pickups create a low-pass filter depending (mostly) on the number of windings in the coil. If you're leaving preserve pitch off as you change the play rate, then the cutoff frequency will move also. Doubling the speed of a part played on an HB will end up sounding more like an SC, and an SC might start to get shrill. Likewise, slowing down an SC makes it sound like an HB, and an HB can sometimes end up overly dark.
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Old 07-18-2015, 11:39 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zdub View Post
Quoted all over the place but a myth according to http://www.songfacts.com/detail.php?id=334
Thanks for clarifying, though it sounded cool, I was becoming a little suspicious. For those guys at that time, this seems like the last thing they would be worried about.
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