Old 11-12-2015, 03:29 PM   #1
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Default Audio/recording buzz words

Whenever you start shopping around for studio hardware you always come up against two buzz words—"American" and "British." These are meant to describe the "tone" of the piece of gear. I'm relatively certain that these words refer to "API" and "Neve" respectively.

But the real question for me is, what is the "API" or "Neve" sound? These buzz words would seem to describe something specific; a sort of shorthand that experienced engineers/producers/musicians seem to know already.

In the guitar world, if you're talking Gibson vs Fender, you're talking about Eric Clapton's Beano tone for Gibson and Stevie Ray Vaughan on the Fender side. That's the extremely general tonal range advertisers use. Like if someone wants a Les Paul to sound a certain way, nine times out of ten they're talking about the EC Beano thing. Zeppelin and Allman Bros. are all descended from that. Stevie Ray Vaughan is what most people are looking for when they aren't happy with their Strat sound. Obviously I'm generalizing, but that's the point.

What would you say is the album/single/track that screams "American/API" or "British/Neve"? What are advertisers referencing when they use these terms?
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Old 11-12-2015, 03:50 PM   #2
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Great question. And way to be totally approachable about this topic.
You're right it is similar to Gibson/Fender discussions. Marketing it probably one of the main reasons these days to mention the names... sad.

Fleetwood Mac's 1977 "RUMOURS" album is an API album. For a modern example, listen to the drums on Ray Lamontagne's "God Willin'..." album. (Side note, of course these days, so much of what we have available is modular... I don't recall what is what but not Lamontagne's album is API. The drums are.)

The descriptions that most people give API: low-mid presence, punchy, gut-punching, clean, a strong presence in the mids. (Even typing this, I'm having a moment thinking that the differences are really minor, compared to mic placement, song, arrangement, etc, but I do like hearing the differences.)

Neve is thick and powerful with a great mid presence. With Neve's across everything, there is sometimes a "haze" that develops as it builds up. I like it. I just prefer API.

I think that the saturation is what is generally referenced. That and the marketing ploy to get people to buy their product based off the well respected names and "copied" sounds.

If I have down time while tracking, I'll try to record somethings through an API312 and Vintech (neve clone - it's a good representation) over the weekend. That would be fun to deliver those to you so listen yourself. Or I bet someone has done that at GS.
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Old 11-12-2015, 04:24 PM   #3
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I hope others will pitch in here as well, as this could become a rather interesting thread (sort of is already, thanks to Anderson's response): the British vs. the American sound.

For my part, let me just put in another 'piece' of the British sound: beyond the Abbey Road EMI studio itself were/are all the clever staff (waking around then in white lab coats, looking more like a surgery staff than audio) that built one unit after the other, as needed, as requested. This hodge podge of 'EMI' gear has been brought to life again and into our hands by companies such as Softubes and Waves plugin makers. I'll throw in with those the Redd units, too. All of these helped create and shape this "British" sound. Shattered Glass Audio has a freeware channel strip plugin of recent release that does a fair job of capturing some of the Redd preamp goodness, if anyone wants a hands-on example to play with.
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Old 11-12-2015, 05:39 PM   #4
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The funny thing is, if you ask Rupert Neve (and I have) or the OG API designers (I have but only over email), they would cry if you told them their products altered the sound intentionally in their proper operating range.

When they designed these circuits, they wanted the "straight wire with gain" - As flat of a frequency response as they could get, and as low noise and distortion as they possibly could, and a wide enough bandwidth to carry the audio range.

Getting OUT of the proper operating levels is where they really get different. The API is often described as a much "harder" sound than a neve when it distorts, which might be why so many people like them for snares, but I'm betting 99.99999999999% of the people who scream about the differences between Neves and APIs couldn't tell the difference between them in an ABX test
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Old 11-12-2015, 06:08 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by jpanderson80 View Post
Great question. And way to be totally approachable about this topic.
You're right it is similar to Gibson/Fender discussions. Marketing it probably one of the main reasons these days to mention the names... sad.

Fleetwood Mac's 1977 "RUMOURS" album is an API album. For a modern example, listen to the drums on Ray Lamontagne's "God Willin'..." album. (Side note, of course these days, so much of what we have available is modular... I don't recall what is what but not Lamontagne's album is API. The drums are.)

The descriptions that most people give API: low-mid presence, punchy, gut-punching, clean, a strong presence in the mids. (Even typing this, I'm having a moment thinking that the differences are really minor, compared to mic placement, song, arrangement, etc, but I do like hearing the differences.)

Neve is thick and powerful with a great mid presence. With Neve's across everything, there is sometimes a "haze" that develops as it builds up. I like it. I just prefer API.

I think that the saturation is what is generally referenced. That and the marketing ploy to get people to buy their product based off the well respected names and "copied" sounds.

If I have down time while tracking, I'll try to record somethings through an API312 and Vintech (neve clone - it's a good representation) over the weekend. That would be fun to deliver those to you so listen yourself. Or I bet someone has done that at GS.
Great post!

I was hoping to see if there was a general consensus as to what these buzz words referenced.

If I were to point someone to the Universal Audio sound, for instance, I'd send them to the Beach Boys.

But the Rumors album is a good touchstone. It definitely has a specific sound. I should listen to it a bit closer.

If you felt like recording some sounds, I'd love to hear them.

Keep the touchstones coming too! It'll help all us noobs cut through the jungle of marketing.
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Old 11-12-2015, 06:14 PM   #6
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I hope others will pitch in here as well, as this could become a rather interesting thread (sort of is already, thanks to Anderson's response): the British vs. the American sound.

For my part, let me just put in another 'piece' of the British sound: beyond the Abbey Road EMI studio itself were/are all the clever staff (waking around then in white lab coats, looking more like a surgery staff than audio) that built one unit after the other, as needed, as requested. This hodge podge of 'EMI' gear has been brought to life again and into our hands by companies such as Softubes and Waves plugin makers. I'll throw in with those the Redd units, too. All of these helped create and shape this "British" sound. Shattered Glass Audio has a freeware channel strip plugin of recent release that does a fair job of capturing some of the Redd preamp goodness, if anyone wants a hands-on example to play with.
I've got that Shattered Glass plugin. It's very cool.

I wasn't necessarily looking at how to get the "British" or "American" sound.

Rather, I was looking to see if there was any agreements as to what sounds these terms reference. It's not gear, entirely.

It's been pointed out in this thread that engineering skills such as mic placement are equally important.

So what we're actually talking about is specific music. I'd love to be able to pin down what we're supposed to be thinking of when we're slapped with the buzz words.

For instance, when UAD talks Harrison, they immediately reference Thriller and ABBA. So we associate Harrison (generally) with those records.
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Old 11-12-2015, 06:20 PM   #7
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Whenever you start shopping around for studio hardware you always come up against two buzz words—"American" and "British." These are meant to describe the "tone" of the piece of gear. I'm relatively certain that these words refer to "API" and "Neve" respectively.

But the real question for me is, what is the "API" or "Neve" sound? These buzz words would seem to describe something specific; a sort of shorthand that experienced engineers/producers/musicians seem to know already.

In the guitar world, if you're talking Gibson vs Fender, you're talking about Eric Clapton's Beano tone for Gibson and Stevie Ray Vaughan on the Fender side. That's the extremely general tonal range advertisers use. Like if someone wants a Les Paul to sound a certain way, nine times out of ten they're talking about the EC Beano thing. Zeppelin and Allman Bros. are all descended from that. Stevie Ray Vaughan is what most people are looking for when they aren't happy with their Strat sound. Obviously I'm generalizing, but that's the point.

What would you say is the album/single/track that screams "American/API" or "British/Neve"? What are advertisers referencing when they use these terms?
That's funny, after reading your first paragraph I immediately thought "single coil sound and humbucker sound are very distinct and obvious sounds but the API vs Neve thing seems slightly pretentious to me" then your next paragraph goes on to mention it yourself.

Something I've found in my years of audio is that people will speak of incredibly subtle differences as if they were massive and obvious (like the Strat/LP difference)
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Old 11-12-2015, 06:21 PM   #8
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Fleetwood Mac's 1977 "RUMOURS" album is an API album.
You sure about that?

The documentary film "Sound City" makes a huge deal about their Neve console.
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Old 11-12-2015, 06:35 PM   #9
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Just did a bit of Googling because I was surprised at your post and it turns out they only recorded one track at Sound City and it wasn't even one with drums.

Unless my memory is failing me, that film makes out that they recorded the whole album there! There's a huge part about Rumours then they have a lot of people going on about how great the room is for drums and, since I've always thought Rumours was one of the best sounding albums I've heard, I assumed that was the reason for the nice drum sound.

I wonder if it's just me or if they really do mislead the viewer about the album being recorded there
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Old 11-12-2015, 07:20 PM   #10
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Just did a bit of Googling because I was surprised at your post and it turns out they only recorded one track at Sound City and it wasn't even one with drums.

Unless my memory is failing me, that film makes out that they recorded the whole album there! There's a huge part about Rumours then they have a lot of people going on about how great the room is for drums and, since I've always thought Rumours was one of the best sounding albums I've heard, I assumed that was the reason for the nice drum sound.

I wonder if it's just me or if they really do mislead the viewer about the album being recorded there
This is the sort of misinformation we run into with analogue gear. The best sounding albums for me are Elton John's Goodbye Yellow Brick Road and Don't Shoot Me I'm Only the Piano Player. The drums are so lush. So much is made of Elton John's use of a Trident A-Range, but the Chateau had an MCI. Gus Dudgeon has even talked about how much he loved the MCIs. So it's difficult to really know what anyone's talking about.
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Old 11-12-2015, 09:44 PM   #11
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We ended up inheriting Fleetwood Mac and Stevie Nicks at Vintage Recorders since we bought a lot of Cherokee's stuff including the Trident A/B, a one of a kind Trident A that was sized to fit inside the Trident B's frame. I never heard anything about Sound City
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Old 11-12-2015, 10:05 PM   #12
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Malcolm Toft's take on the "British Sound"
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Old 11-12-2015, 10:22 PM   #13
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He doesn't seem to say one word about the possible, oh so exaggerated in every forum, differences between mic preamps, instead focusing on acoustics, mixing styles and EQ center frequencies

Just as it should be in the reality based side of the industry
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Old 11-13-2015, 02:39 AM   #14
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I think that this all is a discussion about voodoo-blahblah.

there are so many factors influencing the sound of an album that you cant break it down to API or Neve or MCI or Redd or whatever. you all know that. its the room, the musicians, the instruments, the amps, the preamps, the prducers, the mixers (people), the mastering, and so on and on and on.

oh, yes, and the weather on the days when recording. hunidity and air pressure have a great influence on musicians. and gear. and cables. what if an album was mixed on a rainy day and mastered on a sunny day?

so, I think its an elaborated discussion for nerds only that does nothing for the result: the music.
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Old 11-13-2015, 08:20 AM   #15
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I think that this all is a discussion about voodoo-blahblah.

there are so many factors influencing the sound of an album that you cant break it down to API or Neve or MCI or Redd or whatever. you all know that. its the room, the musicians, the instruments, the amps, the preamps, the prducers, the mixers (people), the mastering, and so on and on and on.

oh, yes, and the weather on the days when recording. hunidity and air pressure have a great influence on musicians. and gear. and cables. what if an album was mixed on a rainy day and mastered on a sunny day?

so, I think its an elaborated discussion for nerds only that does nothing for the result: the music.
Again, I'm not asking how to achieve it.

I'm asking what you all think the marketing guys mean by "American" or "British" sounds.

I'm actually looking for a simple way to cut through the bs ads. I think we'd all benefit from a bit more knowledge when shopping for gear.
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Old 11-13-2015, 08:21 AM   #16
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I read that. Very enlightening. It's actually one of the catalysts of this thread.
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Old 11-13-2015, 08:38 AM   #17
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The TDR SlickEQ Owner's Manual (page 5) describes their take on the differences in EQ behavior. It does not detail how they came to these conclusions or which brand equipment is being emulated.

In some YouTube video the guy assumed that the American emulated API and that the British emulated Neve, but he could not confirm by listening. He did directly compare SlickEQ in American mode against UAD API emulation and was able to get a comparable result.
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Old 11-13-2015, 08:44 AM   #18
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The funny thing is, if you ask Rupert Neve (and I have) or the OG API designers (I have but only over email), they would cry if you told them their products altered the sound intentionally in their proper operating range.

When they designed these circuits, they wanted the "straight wire with gain" - As flat of a frequency response as they could get, and as low noise and distortion as they possibly could, and a wide enough bandwidth to carry the audio range.

Getting OUT of the proper operating levels is where they really get different. The API is often described as a much "harder" sound than a neve when it distorts, which might be why so many people like them for snares, but I'm betting 99.99999999999% of the people who scream about the differences between Neves and APIs couldn't tell the difference between them in an ABX test
Now there's a dose of reality. The fact is most of us havent had the chance to work on an API or Neve desk so these really are marketing terms. Yeah many of us might have access to a lunchbox or rack version of a Neve or API clone but thats not the same as having 48 channels with associated EQ and compression modules which were also a bug part of THE SOUND. And yeah, nowadays its mainly about how these preamps distort that separates them.

The whole preamp thing is somewhat hilarious to me. In the days of the large format console, they mixed the whole song through whatever console they had. No one worried about using the api sound for drums and the neve sound for Vocals. You used what you had and many great records were made on desks from Harrison, SSL, etc. Nobody seems to give a rats ass about preamps from THESE consoles even though some of the best selling albums ever were recorded on them. I wonder how it all got paired down to API and Neve.
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Old 11-13-2015, 09:41 AM   #19
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I can only speak to current Rupert Neve hardware (a separate deal from Neve). I have some pres EQ, comps and tape emulators that his new company makes.
most of the sound here comes from the way he designs transformers specifically for each circuit.
if you use the gear in the linear range its pretty transparent but when you start to saturate the transformers you can really add something special to the sound.

comparing that to Chandler's Abbey Road reissue stuff, its hard to not add coration with a TG2 pre amp and their comps are real coloation boxes too.

to the coloration. Rupert Neve gear adds some weight and body whie being smooth. Chandler is more Dirty or grainy when you really push it.

as to if its a night and day diference, it depends on your point of reference and experience. if you do audio 8 hours a day all week you start to pickup the nuances. Much like an F1 driver can probably tell right away if they're running on Bridgestone or Goodyear tires. to a regular joe like me, the subtlties aren't that obvious.

havinvg said all of that, I don't know that I can tell what desk was used by listening to an album. there are too many other more impactful variables.

I do have 3 open slots in my lunch boxes, could be time to test drive some API.

YMMV

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Old 11-13-2015, 10:17 AM   #20
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I'm starting to see that NO ONE has a CLUE as to what these buzz words refer to. That should be EXTREMELY telling to all of us.

DON'T drop money on gear that advertises in such broad terms. That is true snake oil.

Anyone who claims to hear a difference between this or that is at worst lying or at best expressing a PERSONAL OPINION based on any number of subjective factors.

I wonder since the preamp has become so prevalent lately, if it wouldn't be in a company's best interest to allow a 30 day audition period. I suppose the bigger studios get this privilege, but us hobbyists are sort of left to fumble.

I find it tough to make a decision on an instrument if I haven't played it. I go into a local music shop or a Long & McQuade and try out a guitar through a similar amp. But it's taken me years to know how to audition an instrument.

We don't even get that option with preamps. You pays your money, you takes your chances. I'm not sure I dig that.
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Old 11-13-2015, 11:49 AM   #21
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I'm pretty sure that on Waves' H-EQ the models are the following:

Vintage UK - Neve

Vintage US - Pultec

Modern UK = SSL

Modern US = API
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Old 11-13-2015, 11:55 AM   #22
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I'm starting to see that NO ONE has a CLUE as to what these buzz words refer to. That should be EXTREMELY telling to all of us.

DON'T drop money on gear that advertises in such broad terms. That is true snake oil.

Anyone who claims to hear a difference between this or that is at worst lying or at best expressing a PERSONAL OPINION based on any number of subjective factors.

I wonder since the preamp has become so prevalent lately, if it wouldn't be in a company's best interest to allow a 30 day audition period. I suppose the bigger studios get this privilege, but us hobbyists are sort of left to fumble.

I find it tough to make a decision on an instrument if I haven't played it. I go into a local music shop or a Long & McQuade and try out a guitar through a similar amp. But it's taken me years to know how to audition an instrument.

We don't even get that option with preamps. You pays your money, you takes your chances. I'm not sure I dig that.
Well the thing is... a quality Neve or API clone IS high quality gear. I definitely wouldnt say "don't" buy this because of BS marketing speak. Just dont expect to transform your recordings from "meh" to "dark side of the moon" because you got a Neve pre. Its a tool and a useful one, not the least because you CAN overdrive it which is a great feature.

Regardless of whether its Neve, API or another transformer balanced preamp I think everyone can benefit from having at least one "colored" mic pre. Transformer induced low mid harmonic distortion is real and it does effect the audio in a useful way. I prefer to get that sound on the way in the same way I like to compress on the way in. It makes mixing easier. Just beware of the hype and have realistic expectations.
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Old 11-13-2015, 11:59 AM   #23
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The preamp designs were going for full fidelity and flat as already mentioned.

The saturation artifacts weren't the focus of the design, they were an artifact that was within acceptable limits.

The thing that the class A preamp circuits let you do is dial in the gain and loading with greater range. Sometimes the point was to focus on the "meat" of the sound and saturation "around the edges" is simply an acceptable artifact.

Also remember that everyone was fighting tape hiss and printing everything already produced and hot to tape to get FAR away from it. Better to singe the edges than have something swimming in hiss!

And... sometimes you DO intentionally dial into saturation for a distorted sound.


You mix by focusing the elements of sound you want to hear. Using these things as distortion boxes is all good too but you aren't going to magically add anything to your mix by running EVERYTHING through distortion!

Now you've got kids inserting these saturation fx on the master mix bus?!
Sure! Run your whole mix through a distortion box!
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Old 11-13-2015, 12:12 PM   #24
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The preamp designs were going for full fidelity and flat as already mentioned.

The saturation artifacts weren't the focus of the design, they were an artifact that was within acceptable limits.

The thing that the class A preamp circuits let you do is dial in the gain and loading with greater range. Sometimes the point was to focus on the "meat" of the sound and saturation "around the edges" is simply an acceptable artifact.

And... sometimes you DO intentionally dial into saturation for a distorted sound.


You mix by focusing the elements of sound you want to hear. Using these things as distortion boxes is all good too but you aren't going to magically add anything to your mix by running EVERYTHING through distortion!

Now you've got kids inserting these saturation fx on the master mix bus?!
Sure! Run your whole mix through a distortion box!
Of course, its season to taste when appropriate. I'm not advocating overdriving a delicate Female vocal ballad. I record mainly rock bands and any combination of Bass, electric guitar, rock vocals, snare and kick can befit from either some slight harmonic thickening up to audible crunchiness...depending on the tune and the context.
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Old 11-13-2015, 12:20 PM   #25
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People often think they want pristine clean but it isn't the case near as often as they think. Everyone screamed for accurate fidelity when all we had was analog for example; then we refined digital to get that fidelity and now millions of dollars are being spent on emulating what we had.

So in reality, everyone should want one clean preamp and the rest colored etc. (even more so in the digital realm) but since colored is more expensive much of the time, everyone keeps trying to justify it the other way around and/or setting up scenarios in order to say it doesn't make a difference when it does as evidenced by buying all those plugins.

Many would simply do a whole lot better if they'd just buy some decent colored gear and be done with it. Especially since all that gear can also run incredibly clean when asked to do so. If someone really does only want pristine, sterile exact reproductions, they'd not care to begin with because this would all be irrelevant.
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Old 11-13-2015, 12:38 PM   #26
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These are meant to describe the "tone" of the piece of gear. I'm relatively certain that these words refer to "API" and "Neve" respectively.
They referred to amps before preamps IIRC or at minimum not restricted to preamps by any means:

Marshall / Boogie
Vox / Fender
Neve / API

All have some differences and overall flavors when using them day in and day out. Any relevance is up to the person using the gear. Buzzwords just come with the territory but that doesn't mean the differences aren't there, or how big/small/big/important they are or aren't.
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Old 11-13-2015, 12:51 PM   #27
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kirk1701: "I wasn't necessarily looking at how to get the "British" or "American" sound."

Yes, and I assumed as much, but aside from albums that represent, I find it important to deal with the actual tools used to get the sounds in question.

And: "Rather, I was looking to see if there was any agreements as to what sounds these terms reference. It's not gear, entirely."


Now, I see a real problem here in defining Brit sound, for example. I know next to nothing about F. Mac's Rumours production -- honestly, I thought it was ALL done in LA and has several aspects of that '70s California session sound! In fact, it sounds about 85% LA studio to me, to be truly honest!

But beyond this, some of the channel preamps I and others have already mentioned sound a good bit different from each other -- i.e., cheaper Neves vs. the most expensive Neves. He was always coming up with something more, something slightly newer, 'better'.

"A straight wire with gain" was also the goal, believe it or not of Leo Fender and Jim Marshall on their first amps, the late 50s bigger tweeds and Jim's rough copy thereof, being the early JTM which employed KT66 power stage valves instead of the more American-sounding 6L6s in the bigger Fenders. Neither series of large combo amps ever got close to "flat" or straight wire status. Leo did approach it by the time of the black-face amps of the mid-'60s, though. But I digress here.

Back to channel preamps and Brit EQs, there is a good deal of variance in sound, I mean the Redds I mentioned compared to Neve's (any design of his during the '60s/'70s) compared to EMI/Abbey Road 'backroom' builds.

Even more, aspects of the British Sound is found in early Beatles, the Kinks, vs., just for example, The Beatles later albums, Abbey Road LP being a good example to put up against the first Beatles' sounds. Very different. So, it is tough to pick any one or two albums and say "this is it". Nothing I just mentioned, BTW, sounds anything like the Rumours album you've been holding up as British Sound ... at least not at all to my ears!

Someone mentioned a "harder sound" and I think I would agree. Although kirk1701 is wanting to deal with the sound more to the exclusion of the gear, I suggest that one truly can't. The gear they had in the UK and, even more important, the gear that was rare to this side of the pond, gear that didn't ship from US in large, affordable quantities is a lot of what distinguishes the American Sound from the British to a very large degree. Many, many of the power amp tubes/valves sound very different, US-made speakers then sounded very different than European (many were Italian) speakers at the time of the '60s and '70s.

The stuff you have on hand to solder and nail together can make a huge difference. Jim Marshall was trying his best to really COPY a Fender tweed Bassman when he ended up with his Marshall (Parks) JTM "bluesbreaker" combo. The two amps sound NOTHING like each other!

Also, we must consider 'build convention' in electronics design. The very thing that made old Rupert stand out from the hoard (besides great sound, of course!) was that he, more than practically anyone in his circle, had a viable and working design philosophy. (Unfortunately, in my own humble opinion, I think the whole Neve matter -- and certainly the prices -- have been blown ridiculously out of proportion, in talking about $7k channel preamps and so on. So it tends to go ...

Anyway, to avoid rambling further, I'll say that, to me, I define the British sound in the period of 1962 through 1970, with a few standouts in the early '70s. And when I think about the early '70s (before rampant music and sound experimentation began to obscure the British Sound sometimes beyond recognition), even so, during those years I can't help but think about the Trident A strip and a couple of other goodies.

It helps me to understand a 'sound' and also frame it better when I can connect it to the actual version of 'unobtainium' that did much to create it. Of course, along with this, is closely connected the personnel using said goods, those whose skill accounts for much in the equation as well. So ... my next move would be to discuss several historically important engineer/producers....

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Old 11-13-2015, 01:04 PM   #28
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Well the thing is... a quality Neve or API clone IS high quality gear. I definitely wouldnt say "don't" buy this because of BS marketing speak. Just dont expect to transform your recordings from "meh" to "dark side of the moon" because you got a Neve pre. Its a tool and a useful one, not the least because you CAN overdrive it which is a great feature.

Regardless of whether its Neve, API or another transformer balanced preamp I think everyone can benefit from having at least one "colored" mic pre. Transformer induced low mid harmonic distortion is real and it does effect the audio in a useful way. I prefer to get that sound on the way in the same way I like to compress on the way in. It makes mixing easier. Just beware of the hype and have realistic expectations.
This I agree with.
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Old 11-13-2015, 01:06 PM   #29
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They referred to amps before preamps IIRC or at minimum not restricted to preamps by any means:

Marshall / Boogie
Vox / Fender
Neve / API

All have some differences and overall flavors when using them day in and day out. Any relevance is up to the person using the gear. Buzzwords just come with the territory but that doesn't mean the differences aren't there, or how big/small/big/important they are or aren't.
That's far more detailed that any of the marketing-speak gets, in my experience. It's far broader and generalized.
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Old 11-13-2015, 01:17 PM   #30
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Telenator, this truly is the correct answer and what I'm really getting at. Tone is subjective and incredibly nuanced. It exists in the classical world. Think of Stradivarius. Can anyone really describe the tone of a Strad violin? Nope. I think even the keenest listener would be hard-pressed to pick one out on a record unless it was pointed out to him/her. Besides which, each Strad is a unique voice. They all sound different.

We're spoiled with choice a bit. In the early 60s, the Beatles used what was available to them at Abbey Road. (Incidentally, they were signed to Parlophone, which was the EMI comedy label. Really low on the totem pole. So even less choice.)

The Beach Boys were on Capitol, a much more respected name in music production. Brian Wilson was one of the first producers to "shop around" as it were. He'd move production around between Western, Ocean Way, and GoldStar to make use of the different gear and spaces.

But that was far from the norm, especially in rock 'n roll.

I don't think there can be a standardized reference point for these terms, so they ought not to be used, in my opinion.
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Old 11-13-2015, 01:22 PM   #31
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That's far more detailed that any of the marketing-speak gets, in my experience. It's far broader and generalized.
The problem belongs to all those assigning so much importance to it and allowing it to bother them, never bothered me, it's no different than saying grass is green and the sky is blue. You can use the overall differences as a basic guide of potential differences but that has nothing to do with actually trying stuff and keeping what works for you.
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Old 11-13-2015, 01:24 PM   #32
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That's far more detailed that any of the marketing-speak gets, in my experience. It's far broader and generalized.
I'm afraid you've totally lost me with this comment. I haven't the foggiest what you are getting at here, unless you are referring to how they don't talk of preamp strips sounding vastly different in many cases, since, after all, colouration added on a strip is a very different matter than, say, VOX guitar amps that have been described as 'nothing BUT colour"!

On the other hand, it is safe to say in most cases that the "marketing-speak" used to fill a paragraph or so next to some very pricey preamp strip on a page is generally meaningless hogwash. On and off over the years, a side pursuit and passion of mine was working in print media -- PR, journalism and related -- and reading the text beside these products is an exercise in attempting to derive meaning out of empty gibberish and idiocy. I would NEVER buy any product based in any way upon what these writer hacks spew out about the gadget.
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Old 11-13-2015, 02:59 PM   #33
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Keep in mind that moving a mic 1 millimeter or tilting it 1 degree will have far more difference than the difference between almost any mic preamp operated in its linear range
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Old 11-16-2015, 09:30 AM   #34
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I'm afraid you've totally lost me with this comment. I haven't the foggiest what you are getting at here, unless you are referring to how they don't talk of preamp strips sounding vastly different in many cases, since, after all, colouration added on a strip is a very different matter than, say, VOX guitar amps that have been described as 'nothing BUT colour"!

On the other hand, it is safe to say in most cases that the "marketing-speak" used to fill a paragraph or so next to some very pricey preamp strip on a page is generally meaningless hogwash. On and off over the years, a side pursuit and passion of mine was working in print media -- PR, journalism and related -- and reading the text beside these products is an exercise in attempting to derive meaning out of empty gibberish and idiocy. I would NEVER buy any product based in any way upon what these writer hacks spew out about the gadget.
I'm saying that most marketing copy is complete BS, so we agree. Any reference to "colour, saturation, classic, American, etc." is uninformed at best.

I work in print media myself. It's frustrating that, as a writer/editor, I can't even make sense of most sales literature. It's a pet peeve sure, but it does get under my skin.

I'm trying to learn about studio hardware and the sheer amount of misinformation makes it difficult.
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Old 11-16-2015, 09:40 AM   #35
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I'm saying that most marketing copy is complete BS
It is but.... it doesn't mean what they are talking about doesn't exist, or how relevant it is or isn't to the person using them. One has to use that big ole thing between their ears (brain) to extract what parts matter, what parts are true to you and what parts have relevance. That is true about ANYTHING being sold, the seller sweetens the proposition in any way they can when explaining to you why you should purchase - that doesn't even require a marketing team, just a person with the desire to sell.

IOW, marketing did not make those comparisons and terms up, they simply exploit and overblow them to make them seem much more relevant to those who don't want to think for themselves.
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Old 11-16-2015, 10:17 AM   #36
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It is but.... it doesn't mean what they are talking about doesn't exist, or how relevant it is or isn't to the person using them. One has to use that big ole thing between their ears (brain) to extract what parts matter, what parts are true to you and what parts have relevance. That is true about ANYTHING being sold, the seller sweetens the proposition in any way they can when explaining to you why you should purchase - that doesn't even require a marketing team, just a person with the desire to sell.

IOW, marketing did not make those comparisons and terms up, they simply exploit and overblow them to make them seem much more relevant to those who don't want to think for themselves.
This is fairly condescending.
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Old 11-16-2015, 10:18 AM   #37
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This is fairly condescending.
Why? It isn't meant to be but it is exactly what my mom taught me when I was maybe 5 years old. Seriously, don't take it that way but rather use it to your advantage since it's true we can't allow someone else to tell the truth to make our decisions for us. That's a universal truth you can count on, just trying to help you out man.
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Old 11-16-2015, 10:30 AM   #38
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Keep in mind that moving a mic 1 millimeter or tilting it 1 degree will have far more difference than the difference between almost any mic preamp operated in its linear range
Absolutely agree. The difference between mics themselves obviously makes a far bigger difference too.

The differences between preamps are FAR more pronounced in the lower end of the $$ spectrum. Compare a Behringer to a Mackie Onyx to an RME pre and there is a vast difference in quality in their linear range compared to Neve/API etc. Mackie Onyx pre's are a big step up from Behringer and RME are a significant step up from the Mackies and the gap between Behringer and Onyx is much greater than that of Onyx to RME.

When I was house engineer for a high end live venue a few years ago, I worked with some artists who had preferences for specific mic pre's and some would bring their own pre's and mic's.
For example, Bob Brozman would bring his own Neumann KM series mics and Neve 1073 lunchbox pre's and we ran the pre's in their linear range and they sounded detailed, transparent and very clean. We weren't aiming for non linearities. He got all the character and variation by knowing his mic's and varying the position of his guitars. He PLAYED the mic position as an instrument.
That Neumann/Neve combo when in the linear range sounded far more detailed than the stock Yamaha workhorse desk pre's which actually sound quite good.
Had we compared the 1073 to an API, if they were both running in the linear range, I doubt anyone would pick the difference.

In my studio, I prefer running mic pre's that are as transparent as possible (RME fit that bill nicely) and do the processing later. There are so many decent software options available now that I don't see the need to invest tons of cash in mic pre's to obtain their non linear colouration which cannot be removed later if I change my mind. I'd rather spend the money on good recording gear, instruments, mic's and software processing options.

In fact, I just took advantage of the iZotope upgrade and upgraded from Ozone 5 Advanced to the Music Production Bundle and the Ozone 7 vintage tape module, for example, can do some extremely nice things to transparently recorded audio. One thing it has that I really love is the ability to mix between third order and second order harmonic distortion. I set it all the way to second order with slight overdrive for some instruments on my last track and that starts to actually sound like a 1073 driven into light overdrive despite being tape saturation. I'm looking forward to seeing what Nectar can do on my next vocal session too.
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Old 11-16-2015, 10:34 AM   #39
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Something I've found in my years of audio is that people will speak of incredibly subtle differences as if they were massive and obvious (like the Strat/LP difference)
(grin) You aren't a guitar player, are you?

Most of us can pretty much tell you what pickup combination has been selected on a Strat or a Tele.
Not quite so obvious on a Gibson, but the difference between Gibson and Fender *anything* is chalk and cheese to a competent player.
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Old 11-16-2015, 10:41 AM   #40
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FWIW Department.

I have worked in a large number of supposedly world class studios in the UK and the US.

The one that made the biggest impression on me was Sun studios in Memphis Tn.

Walk into the recording room, clap your hands and the sound is so much more than the sum of the parts involved.

I have never really bought into the whole brit vs US sound being mostly about the equipment, but as has been said above, the myth and mystique has been perpetuated by all us amateur/semi pro home recordists until the immediate assumption is that if you amass enough copies of vintage eqs compressors preamps etc., you will get almost the same results.

Its all bullshit , but at least we have fun twiddling all those expensive knobs, don't we?
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