Old 02-02-2014, 02:44 PM   #1
cerendir
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Default Hardware cab sims?

I know lots of people on here are very much into software amp sims so I guess this kind of goes against the grain, but hear me out.

I will be recording an album's worth of guitar tracks later this year and I've realized I need to start planning ahead and decide exactly how I'm going to go about it. I am a classic tinkerer and I need to come up with a workflow that forces me to make desicions. Therefore I have more or less decided to keep all guitar processing in hardware.

My budget doesn't allow for Axe-Fx's or Kemper's, I need a a more affordable and straightforward solution.

Right now I'm getting pretty good tones from DI'ing my old Zoom 9150 preamp and adding a cab IR after the fact. There's a couple of problems with this approach though.

Firstly, as long as it's possible to go back and change IR's until the cows come home, I will. I want to eliminate that seductive, malleable software part almost completely, except for fx and corrective eq.

Secondly, I am monitoring through the headphone jack of the 9150 which has awful cab simulation (the unit is from 1995, after all), so I'm not actually hearing a good guitar sound until after it's recorded. This seriously detracts from the fun of recording the guitar parts.

Also, I live in an apartment building so micing amps is not an option. But I want that traditional approach: dial in a good sound, record it, done.

All of this has led me to the conclusion that a good hardware cab sim might be the solution to my problems. A unit like that would let me play while hearing the exact sound that is being recorded. It would also allow me to use my amps and pedals without any actual micing taking place.

Now the big question is of course, what are my options? I've been looking at these two:

ADA GCS-2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZLezYymLb8

AMT CN-1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BGVY19MwxI

The ADA looks like it has more options but it's really hard to tell one way or the other as neither clip features any of the particular guitar sounds I'm after :/

There's always the Tech21 stuff too, though the SansAmps appear to be more like "amps in a box" rather than dedicated cab sims. It's hard to know how they'll react when you plug your existing gear into them.

Anyway, sorry for the long story. Anyone here have any experience with hardware like this?
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Old 02-02-2014, 03:00 PM   #2
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Hi!

I happen to like hardware solutions as well. I've been playing the ADA GCS-2 for about six months now, and like it very much. Flexible tone options, and has a good "feel" considering it's a direct device. Besides taking all my various distortion/overdrive pedals well, it's also an improvement over the cab models in my Korg AX3000 multi-effector. I always only intended to use simulators for demo/writing work, but lately the ADA has been giving me keeper sounds. Plus there are options to send dry signals to separate tracks, which can be re-amped (or whatever) later. FWIW, the ADA unit has been the best $120 I've spent in a while. . . .

PS: I've used some of the Sans-amps too, and found it difficult to get what I wanted from them. Apologies to any Sans-map fans out there, but I find them shrill, grating, hard, harsh.

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Old 02-02-2014, 03:36 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by beginwhereur View Post
Hi!

I happen to like hardware solutions as well. I've been playing the ADA GCS-2 for about six months now, and like it very much. Flexible tone options, and has a good "feel" considering it's a direct device. Besides taking all my various distortion/overdrive pedals well, it's also an improvement over the cab models in my Korg AX3000 multi-effector. I always only intended to use simulators for demo/writing work, but lately the ADA has been giving me keeper sounds. Plus there are options to send dry signals to separate tracks, which can be re-amped (or whatever) later. FWIW, the ADA unit has been the best $120 I've spent in a while. . . .

PS: I've used some of the Sans-amps too, and found it difficult to get what I wanted from them. Apologies to any Sans-map fans out there, but I find them shrill, grating, hard, harsh.
Thanks beginwhereur!

So you're actually plugging pedals directly into the ADA and getting good results? I've been playing around with this approach the latest days, but unfortunately my only pedal that provides a cab sim output is a Joyo California wich is a bucket of mush that makes everything you plug into it sound the same.

Maybe an EQ between the pedal and ADA would be a good idea? I have several distortion pedals and if I had a way of shaping the signal before it hits the cab sim would it would really open up a lot of options.
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Old 02-02-2014, 05:53 PM   #4
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Thanks beginwhereur!

So you're actually plugging pedals directly into the ADA and getting good results? I've been playing around with this approach the latest days, but unfortunately my only pedal that provides a cab sim output is a Joyo California wich is a bucket of mush that makes everything you plug into it sound the same.

Maybe an EQ between the pedal and ADA would be a good idea? I have several distortion pedals and if I had a way of shaping the signal before it hits the cab sim would it would really open up a lot of options.
Right, plugging pedals I like straight in. I have a few favs, including a DIY version of a Marshall Guv'nor with its tone stack-type EQ, and an old half-rack Boss ROD-10 distortion/EQ. As you say, having some EQ allows for lots of variation. The thing I like is the modular approach, to be able to mix and match. I've thrown every pedal I have at the ADA--delay/reverb (before and after), compression, tremolo, chorus, etc. Of course there's nothing like a real, well-mic'd guitar amp, but so far the ADA has got me well in the ballpark. Then again, I haven't tried them all so take it FWIW. . . .
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Old 02-03-2014, 02:27 PM   #5
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I'm leaning more and more towards the ADA. What's the difference between the ADA GCS-2 and GCS-3 though?
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Old 02-03-2014, 04:35 PM   #6
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You might want to check out 2 notes engineering. IMO they are the best hardware cab sim devices available.

http://www.two-notes.com/en/hardware/torpedo-cab/
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Old 02-03-2014, 04:45 PM   #7
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Do you have any good tube heads around? If so, I've used one of these before and really liked the results:

http://www.palmergear.com/pga04.shtml
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Old 02-03-2014, 09:25 PM   #8
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I'm gonna second the Two Notes suggestion. The Torpedo C.A.B. is what you want. Power amp emulation, cabinet emulation, microphone emulation...Just plug in your Zoom and go.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Mn9116AxiE

For $500 it's pretty awesome.
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Old 02-04-2014, 03:59 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by effitall View Post
I'm gonna second the Two Notes suggestion. The Torpedo C.A.B. is what you want. Power amp emulation, cabinet emulation, microphone emulation...Just plug in your Zoom and go.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Mn9116AxiE

For $500 it's pretty awesome.
Looks really cool but unfortunately it costs a lot more than $500 in Sweden... actually almost $700. That's a little steep IMO.
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Old 02-07-2014, 10:26 AM   #10
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Moderators: could this topic be moved to "Recording technologies etc" instead to prevent it from being buried? Thanks.
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Old 02-07-2014, 03:05 PM   #11
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I would save the cash ...

Use your software sims and IRs of choice ... get the track down and then print it destructively, and by that i mean delete the original.

A couple of combined SWS actions will do this IIRC.


It will achieve the exact same result, it will sound better IMHO (I havent heard a hardware cab sim sound as good as a good IR in software, in general)
... and you get to keep the cash.

The opportunity to endlessly tinker, before commiting to recording, will be no different if your using hardware or software.


Just putting it out there

EDIT: i have an old ADA-MP1 that does have nice cab emulation, so maybe the new ADA unit is worth looking at.
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Old 02-09-2014, 02:40 PM   #12
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I would save the cash ...

Use your software sims and IRs of choice ... get the track down and then print it destructively, and by that i mean delete the original.
That's the problem, I don't (and won't) use software amp sims. I add cab IR's to a DI'd hardware preamp. This preamp sounds great through an amp or power amp, but its speaker sim output leaves a lot to be desired. I want to be able to monitor what I'm recording through a good speaker sim.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeolian View Post
The opportunity to endlessly tinker, before commiting to recording, will be no different if your using hardware or software.
I'm talking about tinkering *after* everything's recorded. I don't mind spending some time getting a good guitar sound before hitting rec. I just want to eliminate that bad habit of endlessly going back and replacing everything in the signal chain that working in software has given me.
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Old 02-09-2014, 04:18 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by cerendir View Post
I just want to eliminate that bad habit of endlessly going back and replacing everything in the signal chain that working in software has given me.
Two things:

1. I've been after a similar product for a while now. The V-Machine felt buggy, and all analog cab-sims felt flat and fizzy. I'm gonna have a real look at Two Notes Torpedo CAB though the price is going to leave an open wound. Right now though, my fast up and running direct setup is an EX-7 through a reverb pedal just adding ambience - it's the best for me so far for hard rock guitar.

2. Latency aside, I know you know about the pre-fx in Reaper 'destructive' recording mode. Why not? If latency is the main beef, have you tried KeFir? KeFir really fixed the latency problem for me when I recorded destructively with a sansamp as pre amp - which btw yielded some excellent results.
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Old 02-10-2014, 02:09 AM   #14
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If latency is the main beef, have you tried KeFir? KeFir really fixed the latency problem for me when I recorded destructively with a sansamp as pre amp - which btw yielded some excellent results.
Exactly what do you mean with "fixed the latency problem"? Overall system latency is going to be present even with a zero latency impulse loader... it just does not introduce any additional latency of its own.

Monitoring through software is out of the question for me. I use a lot of VSTi's in my projects so I can't realistically track guitars with a super low latency.
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Old 02-10-2014, 06:59 AM   #15
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I use a lot of VSTi's in my projects so I can't realistically track guitars with a super low latency.
Well, that's true. In my case I always track with the vsti's written destructively beforehand - no going back for me.
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Old 02-10-2014, 06:04 PM   #16
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Why not track through something like Recabinet (either the included stuff or use your own impulses) as Input FX?

Edit: maybe freeze your VI's temporarily and drop your latency to record the Guits?
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Old 02-11-2014, 03:27 AM   #17
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Maybe I should just build myself an isolation box.
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Old 02-11-2014, 05:04 AM   #18
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Last dumb idea, promise.

You could invest in a pedal with two outputs, one for monitoring and second for recording. This is how I set it up nowadays. The second output has an impulse but no realtime monitoring, the first one has decent cab-sim which should feel ok to record with - as I mentioned before I also apply a reverb pedal for ambience which actually makes a big difference.

Since we both live in the same country, and I'm a nice guy I could sell you my HT-Dual if you're interested. If you want sound examples I can supply that. PM me

Alright, I'm out.
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Old 02-11-2014, 11:18 AM   #19
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You could invest in a pedal with two outputs, one for monitoring and second for recording. This is how I set it up nowadays. The second output has an impulse but no realtime monitoring, the first one has decent cab-sim which should feel ok to record with - as I mentioned before I also apply a reverb pedal for ambience which actually makes a big difference.
Haha, yeah but that's almost exactly what I'm doing already. Except I'm using a rack preamp, not a pedal.

ZOOM 9150:
L Output ---> audio interface input
Headphone jack ---> h/w mixer for monitoring

Only difference from your suggestion is that the Zoom's headphone jack does not have a decent cab sim. That's why I want a hardware cab sim that can be hooked up to both R & L outputs of the preamp, one channel for recording and one for monitoring.
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Old 03-10-2014, 12:15 PM   #20
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I'm now the proud owner of an ADA GCS-2. I've only been playing around with it for like an hour and a half but it appears to be a really cool little unit.

I suppose it doesn't do anything all my cab IR's can't, except for two things: it gets me the desried results faster, and I can play hearing the exact sound going to disk. That is worth every penny to me. YMMV.

I guess it's a niche product but if you're looking for something like this I recommend it.
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Old 02-14-2016, 02:23 AM   #21
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[QUOTE=cerendir;1309453]
Quote:
ADA GCS-2
Cerendir ... I'm very interested in an analog DI box which has speaker emulation in 'real time' and am wondering how this ADA GCS-2 sounds with clean sounds ... I have a Tech 21 SansAmp PSA-1 which has some great sounds in it, but overall it sounds a bit 'fizzy' on the top end. It supposedly has speaker emulation built into it, but I'm not happy with it's direct output, I always have to carve some of the high end off of it using an outboard EQ and/or an IR within Reaper (with all it's latency) ... I want to be able to get a good speaker emulation on the analog end for use in live situations as well as straight into the A/D interface.

Mainly I'm interested in clean emulations, a Fender Twin, or Vox, or Ampeg Gemini .... can the GCS-2 (or GCS-3) do these types of sounds? I'm not interested in Metal at all ... there are way plenty of horrid sounding distorted sims out there, I want clean, without the fizz

Please let me know if A/DA GCS does 'clean' speaker emulation ...

Thank Ya Buddy,
Tommy V
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Old 02-14-2016, 04:05 AM   #22
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cerendir,
let me suggest one crucial workflow addition :
afaics the ADA has a pass through output - always record that along with the emulated signal, either on a separate mono track or (for simplified comping/editing) both panned hard L/R on a stereo track.
Once you have set this up you'll have the best of both worlds, your "fully hardware" signal plus one that's ready for cab sims, just in case - what's not to like ?
ymmv,
Rhino

even better/more flexible would arguably be a pre-Zoom DI signal, but that would require additional investments.
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Old 02-14-2016, 12:08 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Tommy V View Post
I'm very interested in an analog DI box which has speaker emulation in 'real time' and am wondering how this ADA GCS-2 sounds with clean sounds ... I have a Tech 21 SansAmp PSA-1 which has some great sounds in it, but overall it sounds a bit 'fizzy' on the top end. It supposedly has speaker emulation built into it, but I'm not happy with it's direct output, I always have to carve some of the high end off of it using an outboard EQ and/or an IR within Reaper (with all it's latency) ... I want to be able to get a good speaker emulation on the analog end for use in live situations as well as straight into the A/D interface.
Well actually, I ended up not using the GCS-2 a whole lot (as mentioned in this much more recent thread) and I'm now using software amp sims almost exclusively.

I would say that the GCS-2 does definitely not suffer from excessive high end -- if anything I think it rolls off too much of it, even with the mic position set to "Center".

As for emulating amps, it doesn't really do that. It has three switches for selecting various speaker options (Vintage/Modern, 12"/10", Sealed/Open Back) plus a knob for adjusting the mic position between edge and center. So it's kind of basic in that regard, it's just a speaker sim, not a complete amp sim.

For clean sounds... I have no idea really. Like I said it's been gathering dust for the most part of two years. If you like, you could send me some DI guitar track and I'd be happy to reamp it through the ADA with some different settings. Maybe that way you can tell if it might be what you're looking for.

Quote:
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cerendir,
let me suggest one crucial workflow addition :
afaics the ADA has a pass through output - always record that along with the emulated signal, either on a separate mono track or (for simplified comping/editing) both panned hard L/R on a stereo track.
Thanks Prof, but as mentioned this thread is two years old and I ended up going the software amp sim route after all. But thanks for the suggestion anyway, I actually did that for a while but I realized after some time that the amp sims offered the better sound quality so it felt like unneccessary work. I've got rid of my old Zoom preamp something like a year ago and I can't say I even miss it.
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Old 02-14-2016, 03:19 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by cerendir View Post
Thanks Prof, but as mentioned this thread is two years old and I ended up going the software amp sim route after all. But thanks for the suggestion anyway, I actually did that for a while but I realized after some time that the amp sims offered the better sound quality so it felt like unneccessary work. I've got rid of my old Zoom preamp something like a year ago and I can't say I even miss it.
Ok, sorry, the joke's on me ...
Nothing wrong with recording DIs from various points in the pre-DAW chain though, they can be used for hardware reamping, ampsims or cabsims respectively, and not least for layering.
Unfortunately none of the current DAWs handles multitrack-comping and -editing even remotely elegant ...
About time some DAW company rediscovered the ancient technique of recording actual audio events, there is life beyond molesting loops and softsynths.
cheers,
Rhino

btw, totally agreed about sims sounding way better than the Zoom's amps, but you see what happens when I try to be diplomatic.
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Old 02-15-2016, 06:36 PM   #25
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Disclaimer - I am a sucky guitar player and am not versed in the finer points of cabinet emulation.

But, I am very fond of the offerings from these guys.

http://shop.audified.com/

I think the company's name is audified, and their cabinet and pedal sim product line is called audiffex.

Their free stuff is very feature rich for a freebie. So, you can get a good test drive in without spending mad bank. If you get their newsletter, they will run these insane deals where you can pick up stuff at like 70% off.
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