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04-10-2014, 06:59 PM
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#1
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 21,551
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Control Room
Note: Forget for a moment that Bitwig is a comparatively crappy and basic and expensive music creation app in it's current state for many. Let's agree on that and not rehash all that here again.
But look at this really elegant implementation of something akin to the Cubase control room mixer below.
What's elegant about it?
- It's in the docker and it's a really simple graphic design.
- Phones can switched on/off at will, and speakers switched.
- "Solo as Cue" changes to a true solo bus, to monitor.
- It seems to allow easily multing any hardware output into the mains, like real consoles do, without stopping any of the music going anywhere else.
When you switch on "Solo as Cue", the "S" solo buttons change to "C", changing the behavior.
A very functional and graphically well done implementation of something that every serious studio DAW should probably have. You'd just use FX busses as hardware sub-outs.
Forget the clip launcher, I'd rather have this...
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04-10-2014, 10:16 PM
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#2
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 232
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This is what Studio One has had for a while, this is setup in the inputs / outputs panel.
I use both Studio one and learning the ins and outs of Reaper
That is a very good looking view there.
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04-11-2014, 01:54 AM
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#4
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Berlin
Posts: 11,817
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There are quite a couple of folks who have used solutions like this. The other users of Reaper, as well as most future users will discover the benefits pretty quickly.
Build it and they will come.
Only schmocks point to proven features and cite the lack of interest in a crowd that has mostly never had the experience to make a judgement call in the first place.
(Hey, I gotta write this down)
Last edited by airon; 04-11-2014 at 02:16 AM.
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04-11-2014, 05:33 AM
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#5
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: South, UK
Posts: 14,214
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Indeed. Very useful. Would love multiple speaker buttons plus surround features.
Although with the help of things like jeffos and his cue buss actions and reaper's extensive routing I've managed to get by it would be great to have this in reaper. Especially dedicated headphone mixes from reaper that have resize bless elements so I can stick on touch screens in the studio for clients as the sends window is too small and you can't easily assign it to a midi controller.
__________________
subproject FRs click here
note: don't search for my pseudonym on the web. The "musicbynumbers" you find is not me or the name I use for my own music.
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04-11-2014, 06:22 AM
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#6
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 21,551
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuelC
This is what Studio One has had for a while, this is setup in the inputs / outputs panel.
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Not really. Studio One does just about everything perfectly as relates to "setting up and building" and editing cue mixes. It's a really great design. Arguably the best of any native daw... having unlimited dedicated cue sends discreet from FX sends that auto-create already matched to the main mix, and can automatically lock and unlock (group and follow changes) to the main mix. Great design.
It's the cue monitoring / switching / master section part that they completely missed.
Last edited by Lawrence; 04-11-2014 at 06:48 AM.
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04-11-2014, 06:32 AM
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#7
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musicbynumbers
Although with the help of things like jeffos and his cue buss actions and reaper's extensive routing I've managed to get by it would be great to have this in reaper.
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Yeah. The Cue Bus generator is a good tool for building those but Reaper's routing doesn't allow the kind of monitoring / cue control being discussed.
It's not really routing that gets done in a good console master monitor or cue section, it's really more multing and switching and isolating.
Take note in the graphic that the master bus there is assigned to "Studio", a virtual master section that manages all of that, not directly assigned to any hardware output.
Last edited by Lawrence; 04-11-2014 at 06:43 AM.
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04-11-2014, 07:10 AM
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#8
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2007
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I do intend to make a GUI for this, and to add some things, but this JS works just fine as is. I use it all the time.
http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.p...+FX+controller
a native solution in the Monitor FX would be great, but for now, a plugin can get the job done
Last edited by James HE; 04-11-2014 at 07:37 AM.
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04-11-2014, 07:53 AM
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#9
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2007
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Sounds cool James.
I haven't tried it but can you easily monitor any output pair with that? Can you isolate cues in the control room without muting tracks?
The sheer ingenuity (and great coding skill) of Reaper users is a wonderful thing to observe, and much appreciated, but yes, a purpose built native solution is typically always better.
Like, for example, the third party VCA plugin thing actually works but it's obviously nowhere near as good as having native VCA's.
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04-11-2014, 08:03 AM
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#10
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence
Sounds cool James.
I haven't tried it but can you easily monitor any output pair with that?
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yes, you just change the Master out (a gui would be really great here, I've started on it, so maybe soon!)
*wait... do you mean hardware output pair, or a master bus or track assigned output pair?
(you can change the input source - or which ever hardware out. So yes it's flexible - it just needs a good set of controls.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence
Can you isolate cues in the control room without muting tracks?
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No, but that can be added, it's a great idea I hadn't really thought of (since I'm a one man operation anyway )
actually... you could use the "input channel" to just switch the source. multiple sources aren't supported at the moment though. You might be able cobble something together with multiple instances.
alas, more work to do. (sounds fun )
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04-11-2014, 08:17 AM
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#11
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Human being with feelings
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This needs to be taken 1 step further. It needs virtual names with vst functionality and assignable hardware outs.
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04-11-2014, 08:24 AM
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#12
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 21,551
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James HE
yes, you just change the Master out. (a gui would be really great here, I've started on it, so maybe soon!)
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Great work. A video of it would be cool, to more easily wrap brain matter around it.
Here's a rather rough schematic of how that all should probably work, having intermediate multing between the speakers and the mix console, to isolate anything into the monitors. It all happens downstream from the console and the master mix so nothing else changes. All of the hardware outputs are managed by the master section, not by the mix console.
So below, switching the mains to Cue Mix 1 just switches the input feed for the mains to a mult of Cue Mix 1. To do that, the monitor bus has to have direct access to all of the hardware output streams, to mult them.
That completely missing monitor bus is the common flaw of many digital audio workstations who can only connect sub-out busses directly to hardware outputs. That intermediate manages both all of the source signals (what signal you will hear) and all of the destinations (where it goes, to which speakers). All of the speakers and all of the hardware outputs for speakers and cues are connected directly to it, and/or it has direct access to all of those audio streams.
Similarly, with a true solo bus, that same speaker connection that's on Cue 1 above would just move to the solo bus and mult whatever audio happens to be playing on it to the monitors... with no track muting that cuts off all of the audio and sends for anything going anywhere else.
That's all the Cubase CR and Bitwig "studio" panel things are, intermediates, or mults.
Last edited by Lawrence; 04-11-2014 at 09:24 AM.
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04-11-2014, 09:27 AM
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#13
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2007
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Just added a CUE in and out. (this version has the global-remote stuff disabled for now) needs testing... please be careful here! don't blow up your speakers or your ears! lol.
For the most part, you should alias your hardware in settings, and just leave the in/out pins of the plug alone, but altered in configs are valid too.
DONT FORGET TO MAKE THE MONITOR FX MULTICHANNEL!
Controls: (will be more self explanatory once there is a GUI - everything will be able to be aliased)
MASTER OUT = selects which of the assigned hardware outputs the input channels goes to. (or ALL)
MAIN / PHONES / AUX VOLUME: controls the output volume of the assigned outputs
AUX CHANNEL MODE: switches the AUX out from stereo / mono.
INPUT CHANNEL: assigns the main input channel. generally 1/2 or what ever the master track output is assigned to.
MAIN / PHONES / AUX CHANNEL: assigns which hardware outputs you are routing to.
CUE INPUT CHANNEL: assigns which channel (from a track hardware out or wherever) the CUE input comes from.
CUE OUTPUT CHANNEL: assigns which hardware out the CUE bus goes to.
CUE VOLUME: Volume control for the CUE.
I had to account for setups when you want to blend the CUE and MAIN. I think I got it correct, but needs to be put through it's paces.
*I will also fold in a dedicated Media Explorer input at some point as well - which can be routed to either the main or cue out.
Is more than one CUE in/out needed?
*made an edit here. the cue and regular input should mix when needed now, EXCEPT if output is set to "all".
Code:
desc: Harware Router for MONITOR FX
slider1: 1 < 0 , 3 , 1 { All , Main , Phones , Aux } >Master Out
slider2: 0 < -120 , 12 , 1 >Main Volume
slider3: 0 < -120 , 12 , 1 >Phones Volume
slider4: 0 < -120 , 12 , 1 >Aux Volume
slider5: 0 < 0 , 1 , 1 {Stereo , Mono} >Aux Channel Mode
slider7: 0 < 0 , 31 , 1 {1/2,3/4,5/6,7/8,9/10,11/12,13/14,15/16,17/18,19/20,21/22,23/24,25/26,27/28,29/30,31/32,33/34,35/36,37/38,39/40,41/42,43/44,45/46,47/48,49/50,51/52,53/54,55/56,57/58,59/60,61/62,63/64}>Input channel
//slider8: 0 < 0 , 31 , 1 {1/2,3/4,5/6,7/8,9/10,11/12,13/14,15/16,17/18,19/20,21/22,23/24,25/26,27/28,29/30,31/32,33/34,35/36,37/38,39/40,41/42,43/44,45/46,47/48,49/50,51/52,53/54,55/56,57/58,59/60,61/62,63/64}>ME channel
slider9: 0 < 0 , 31 , 1 {1/2,3/4,5/6,7/8,9/10,11/12,13/14,15/16,17/18,19/20,21/22,23/24,25/26,27/28,29/30,31/32,33/34,35/36,37/38,39/40,41/42,43/44,45/46,47/48,49/50,51/52,53/54,55/56,57/58,59/60,61/62,63/64}>Main output channel
slider10: 1 < 0 , 31 , 1 {1/2,3/4,5/6,7/8,9/10,11/12,13/14,15/16,17/18,19/20,21/22,23/24,25/26,27/28,29/30,31/32,33/34,35/36,37/38,39/40,41/42,43/44,45/46,47/48,49/50,51/52,53/54,55/56,57/58,59/60,61/62,63/64}>Phones output channel
slider11: 2 < 0 , 31 , 1 {1/2,3/4,5/6,7/8,9/10,11/12,13/14,15/16,17/18,19/20,21/22,23/24,25/26,27/28,29/30,31/32,33/34,35/36,37/38,39/40,41/42,43/44,45/46,47/48,49/50,51/52,53/54,55/56,57/58,59/60,61/62,63/64}>Aux output channel
slider15: 3 < 0 , 31 , 1 {1/2,3/4,5/6,7/8,9/10,11/12,13/14,15/16,17/18,19/20,21/22,23/24,25/26,27/28,29/30,31/32,33/34,35/36,37/38,39/40,41/42,43/44,45/46,47/48,49/50,51/52,53/54,55/56,57/58,59/60,61/62,63/64}>Cue input channel
slider16: 3 < 0 , 31 , 1 {1/2,3/4,5/6,7/8,9/10,11/12,13/14,15/16,17/18,19/20,21/22,23/24,25/26,27/28,29/30,31/32,33/34,35/36,37/38,39/40,41/42,43/44,45/46,47/48,49/50,51/52,53/54,55/56,57/58,59/60,61/62,63/64}>Cue output channel
slider17: 0 < -120 , 12 , 1 >Cue Volume
@init
@slider
//_global.hardwaresel=slider1;
//_global.outonelev=slider2;
//_global.outtwolev=slider3;
//_global.outrestlev=slider4;
chIN=2*slider7;
choM=2*slider9;
choP=2*slider10;
choA=2*slider11;
volumeM = 10 ^ ( slider2 / 20 );
volumeP = 10 ^ ( slider3 / 20 );
volumeA = 10 ^ ( slider4 / 20 );
cueIN=2*slider15;
cueOUT=2*slider16;
cueVOL = 10 ^ ( slider17 / 20 );
@block
//sliderchange(15);
//slider1=_global.hardwaresel;
//slider2=_global.outonelev;
//slider3=_global.outtwolev;
//slider4=_global.outrestlev;
/*
chIN=2*slider7;
choM=2*slider9;
choP=2*slider10;
choA=2*slider11;
volumeM = 10 ^ ( slider2 / 20 );
volumeP = 10 ^ ( slider3 / 20 );
volumeA = 10 ^ ( slider4 / 20 );
cueIN=2*slider15;
cueOUT=2*slider16;
cueVOL = 10 ^ ( slider17 / 20 );
@sample
inputC0=spl(cueIN); inputC1=spl(cueIN+1);
inputM0=spl(chIN); inputM1=spl(chIN+1);
inputP0=spl(chIN); inputP1=spl(chIN+1);
slider5 ? (
inputA0=spl(chIN)+spl(chIN+1) ;inputA1=0;
):(
inputA0=spl(chIN); inputA1=spl(chIN+1);
);
slider1 == 0 ? (
spl(choM)=inputM0 * volumeM;
spl(choM+1)=inputM1 * volumeM;
spl(choP)=inputP0 * volumeP;
spl(choP+1)=inputP1 * volumeP;
spl(choA)=inputA0 * volumeA;
spl(choA+1)=inputA1 * volumeA;
);
slider1 == 1 ? (
activeOUT=choM;
choM==cueOUT ? (
spl(choM)=(inputM0 * volumeM) + (inputC0*cueVOL);
spl(choM+1)=(inputM1 * volumeM) + (inputC1*cueVOL);
):(
spl(choM)=inputM0 * volumeM;
spl(choM+1)=inputM1 * volumeM;
);
spl(choP)=0;
spl(choP+1)=0;
spl(choA)=0;
spl(choA+1)=0;
);
slider1 == 2 ? (
activeOUT=choP;
spl(choM)=0;
spl(choM+1)=0;
choP==cueOUT ? (
spl(choP)=(inputP0 * volumeP) + (inputC0*cueVOL);
spl(choP+1)=(inputP1 * volumeP) + (inputC1*cueVOL);
):(
spl(choP)=inputP0 * volumeP;
spl(choP+1)=inputP1 * volumeP;
);
spl(choA)=0;
spl(choA+1)=0;
);
slider1 == 3 ? (
activeOUT=choA;
spl(choM)=0;
spl(choM+1)=0;
spl(choP)=0;
spl(choP+1)=0;
choA==cueOUT ? (
spl(choA)=(inputA0 * volumeA) + (inputC0*cueVOL);
spl(choA+1)=(inputA1 * volumeA) + (inputC1*cueVOL);
):(
spl(choA)=inputA0 * volumeA;
spl(choA+1)=inputA1 * volumeA;
);
);
cueOUT !=activeOUT ? (
spl(cueOUT)=inputC0*cueVOL;
spl(cueOUT+1)=inputC1*cueVOL;
);
*Just a note here... the plug mutes un-active assigned outputs. If a hardware output is unassigned, the signal passes normally. i.e if you have 1/2, 3/4, 5/6, outputs assigned to main/aux/phones, you can still add a hardware out from a track to be 7/8 and the signal is unaffected.
Last edited by James HE; 04-11-2014 at 11:26 AM.
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04-11-2014, 09:52 AM
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#14
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 21,551
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Looks pretty interesting. Thanks James.
I guess it's to be inserted on the master bus?
What I'm not clear on is how the aux summing coming from the console, the cue mixes being built with various sends across the entire console, get into the plugin to be managed in the way were were talking about above, since those streams will never hit the master bus. Or is the general idea there to manually pull all those streams in via the "Aux Input" drop downs?
If you do get a chance to sit down and do a 5 minute video explanation while doing some of that with it, might be cool to help the clueless like me.
Nice work in any case.
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04-11-2014, 10:02 AM
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#15
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: I'm in a barn
Posts: 4,467
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence
Looks pretty interesting. Thanks James.
I guess it's to be inserted on the master bus?
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goes in the MONITOR FX. you could put it in the master and send mutichannel out from the master to hardware, but that might complicate rendering, and it wouldn't effect track hardware outputs.
so basically it intercepts and reroutes the input to either of the assigned outputs - from anywhere. If the input is set to 3/4 and you set a track, or the master, or the ME, or even ReaInsert to output on hardware output 3/4, the plugin will route that signal to the active outputs, instead of 3/4.
MONITOR FX sits just before your hardwareouts - so any switching can be done with a plugin there.
I'll be trying my best to ignore the inlaws this weekend so I'll try to get together the GUI (my library is at a farenough along point where I can start making stuff) while I sit by a fake fireplace. I'll do a vid after a bit of the GUI is in place - just being able to alais the ins and outs will make it much easier.
Last edited by James HE; 04-14-2014 at 07:56 PM.
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04-11-2014, 12:27 PM
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#16
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 232
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hey James good plugin
how does the plugin deal with my Mono plugins?
Specially the ones that I do not want double processing specially on Eq's and comps where you want complete MONO processing.
I have several of those auto Mono/Stereo plugins and it's always the "Remember to uncheck second pins" hassle but it's getting better.
With so many plugins installed this would take a while to go through all the plugins and make setup defaults for MONO then save them on the plugin.
I have made the savings for the most common ones I use that makes it better
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04-11-2014, 02:13 PM
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#17
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Zürich
Posts: 1,008
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While I highly appreciate the approach here, I would like to point to a more elaborated solution, which in fact requires a (hopefully) minor change in reaper:
Now: In classic terms reaper always provides a n x 2 mixer with with n being the amount of tracks directly pointing to the main channel. So if you have 16 tracks with no auxes etc you will have a 16 x 2 mixer.
Proposed: If all active/enabled pairs of physical outputs could be used as "main" channels , reaper would provide a
n x m mixer with n being the amount of tracks directly pointing to any main channel and m being the number of physical outputs. So if you have 16 tracks with no auxes etc and a sound card with 8 outputs you will have a 16 x 8 mixer.
In the tcp and mcp this could be visualised like the group assignment switches on a hardware mixer.
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04-11-2014, 02:36 PM
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#18
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Zürich
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mockup:
2 tracks, 8 physical outputs (masters) aligned to the right. Configured as 2/8 mixer....
The send area is not used for visualisation, as these would be auxes / FX channels (= tracks)
now rename Group 7 / 8 with "Master" and rename Group 5 / 6 with CR route the outputs of group 1/2 and 3/4 to Master and CR and the 2/8 Mixer has become a 2/4/4 Mixer
Last edited by Mink99; 08-19-2015 at 08:42 AM.
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04-14-2014, 05:24 AM
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#19
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: East London
Posts: 1,719
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James HE
*I will also fold in a dedicated Media Explorer input at some point as well - which can be routed to either the main or cue out.
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Would be amazing
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04-14-2014, 07:39 AM
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#20
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 21,551
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That graphic two posts above won't really work.
That's more like a console bus assignment where the channel fader is the level control. You can't just assign multiple signals to multiple busses like that without having a level/pan control for each one, there wouldn't be any way to mix them into the bus?
That only works is you assume all the bus mixes are always exactly matching the main mix. Now if each one of those little yellow buttons had a little pop-up fader/pan, sure.
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04-14-2014, 10:30 AM
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#21
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Zürich
Posts: 1,008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence
That only works is you assume all the bus mixes are always exactly matching the main mix. Now if each one of those little yellow buttons had a little pop-up fader/pan, sure.
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If it works on hardware, why not on software ?
This is a replication of the bus / assignment logic of at least those two consoles I know quite well.
You might have a look at http://www.mackie.com/pdf/8bus_om.pdf. Page 4 / assignment switches .. or at http://www.behringer.com/assets/SX4882_M_EN.pdf page 7 routing and muting
Last edited by Mink99; 04-14-2014 at 10:44 AM.
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04-14-2014, 11:15 AM
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#22
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: I'm in a barn
Posts: 4,467
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each TRACK in REAPER is basically a 64 x 64 mixer in and of itself. (including the MASTER and the MONITOR FX section) Contemplating the possibilities is like stepping into the friggin matrix or something
You can add "fake" hardware outputs beyond what your actual interface allows from within preferences! You can then alias these in preferences, and then use the monitor FX section as another mix layer - routing these "fake" outputs to real ones, and do some processing if you want before it actually hits the output!
I outlined a bit of how to do that in this thread - in relation to using fake outputs with SPAN. http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.p...highlight=SPAN
once you pad and alias your output list - you can then use hardware outputs as sort of a "utility" send - like with the SPAN trick. The Monitor FX plug I'm working on uses this - and (hopefully) creates a usable mixer / matrix that can tap into that easily. I end up putting my fake outs in the list before my real outs, as I use them more.
Some diagrams and a vid will be in order, me thinks, it's hard to wrap your head around.
You can do anything you want, basically. However, it's just as complicated (if not more so) as having that many channels and busses on a hardware mixer. Hardware is limited by it's topology, so the interface becomes more direct.
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04-14-2014, 11:53 AM
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#23
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Zürich
Posts: 1,008
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As long as one stays itb there are various opportunities. But real life begins when you leave the box. Hardware inputs and outputs do not scale, they are in fact the limited topology. ...
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04-14-2014, 12:38 PM
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#24
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 21,551
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mink99
If it works on hardware, why not on software ?
This is a replication of the bus / assignment logic of at least those two consoles I know quite well.
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Busses and cue mixes aren't the same thing, which is why they have different paths and consoles don't use it's mix busses for cues and headphones.
I think we're talking about at least two different things... unless you plug your phones into bus direct outs and not aux outs.
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04-14-2014, 12:45 PM
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#25
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 21,551
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James HE
You can do anything you want, basically.
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Not really. Again, everything actually isn't "routing", some things consoles do require isolating on dedicated busses and if you can even get there with some complex routing it's going to be a lot more trouble in practice.
I can turn a phillips screw with a pocket knife, possible, but do i want to do that or would i rather use a phillips screwdriver?
Anyway, it gets pointless trying to explain it. There are simply some things Reaper and other daws cannot do yet, or do well enough to be reasonable.
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04-14-2014, 03:33 PM
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#26
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Zürich
Posts: 1,008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence
Busses and cue mixes aren't the same thing, which is why they have different paths and consoles don't use it's mix busses for cues and headphones.
I think we're talking about at least two different things... unless you plug your phones into bus direct outs and not aux outs.
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My mixer is hooked to the daw so that I record from the group busses, I use auxes as fx channels. That is where my analogy comes from.
The cue mixes are done ... differently as the sources for this are usually already recorded. But... even on the different approaches, I still see a strong requirement for an improved support for multiple physical outputs.
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04-14-2014, 03:52 PM
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#27
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 21,551
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I was only saying that the FR, see the first post, has to do with cues, not mix busses, so i think your comments aren't really related to this particular FR.
Maybe create a new FR for mix busses.
Otoh, it doesn't matter that much anyway. Thanks.
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