Old 12-05-2016, 03:54 AM   #1
vitalker
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Default Dither or not? That is the question

Hello.

I've found recently an audio show "The mastering show" with Ian Shepherd and Jon from ReaperBlog.net:

https://soundcloud.com/themasteringshow/24-streaming

The additional links(from the page above):

http://productionadvice.co.uk/why-mp3-sounds-bad/
http://src.infinitewave.ca/
http://themasteringshow.com/episode-21/
http://productionadvice.co.uk/online-loudness/
http://themasteringshow.com/episode-6/
http://productionadvice.co.uk/what-i...ed-for-itunes/

Vote for stoping the Loudness war: https://www.change.org/p/music-strea...e-loudness-war .

The question is: dither or not?
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Old 12-05-2016, 09:01 AM   #2
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Yes or no?
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Old 12-05-2016, 09:24 AM   #3
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Yes. When you're done messing with the levels and really ready to render to fixed point final file, add dither.
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Old 12-05-2016, 11:06 AM   #4
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Dither every time you reduce word length.

Only use shaped dither on the final render.

e.g.: bounce from REAPER project to stereo 24bit file - flat dither.

Process that 24bit file and render to 16bit for final format - shaped dither.
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Old 12-05-2016, 12:18 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashcat_lt View Post
Yes. When you're done messing with the levels and really ready to render to fixed point final file, add dither.
Did you listen to/read the info under the links?
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Old 12-05-2016, 12:27 PM   #6
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Quote:
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Did you listen to/read the info under the links?
I couldn't find any mention of dithering in the links you gave.
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Old 12-05-2016, 12:33 PM   #7
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I couldn't find any mention of dithering in the links you gave.
Really? The links were under the audio show on soundcloud.
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Old 12-05-2016, 12:35 PM   #8
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Really? The links were under the audio show on soundcloud.
Have you read them?

I don't have time right now to listen to a whole show. Could you give us the gist of what they said about dithering?
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Old 12-05-2016, 12:44 PM   #9
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Have you read them?

I don't have time right now to listen to a whole show. Could you give us the gist of what they said about dithering?
They've said a lot of things, therefore I can't do it. Yes, I've read them. One of the links contains some links to the good articles. Here are they:

http://productionadvice.co.uk/when-in-doubt-dither/
http://productionadvice.co.uk/when-to-dither/
http://productionadvice.co.uk/no-sta...digital-audio/
http://www.audiocheck.net/blindtests..._NeilYoung.php
http://www.audiocheck.net/blindtests_16vs8bit.php
http://productionadvice.co.uk/dither-or-distort/
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Old 12-05-2016, 12:59 PM   #10
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Just looked at the first one. Gave the same advice as me. Flat dither (triangular) whenever you reduce word length (reduce bit depth), and shaped dither for final products (if reducing word length).
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Old 12-05-2016, 01:40 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Judders View Post
Just looked at the first one. Gave the same advice as me. Flat dither (triangular) whenever you reduce word length (reduce bit depth), and shaped dither for final products (if reducing word length).
Ok, thanks for the suggestion!
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Old 12-05-2016, 02:22 PM   #12
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Vitalker, do you know what dither actually does? Why it is used?

Try this: Digital Show and Tell (Monty Montgomery @ xiph.org) for an accessible introduction and start watching at about 8:40 for bit-depth (more correctly, word-length) with the detail on dither is 11:35 onwards. TBH, everybody here should watch this annually to ground themselves


This should help you understand it and why it is used, and help you gauge the relative importance of it in the audio recording/mixing/mastering process.




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Old 12-05-2016, 02:29 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by planetnine View Post
This should help you understand it and why it is used, and help you gauge the relative importance of it in the audio recording/mixing/mastering process.
Ok, thank you! This video is great, especially if you are not a native English speaker
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Old 12-05-2016, 03:20 PM   #14
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Cool video fro xiph. It was a big turnaround for me to realise that dithering actually prevents distortion rather than masking it.
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Old 12-05-2016, 04:21 PM   #15
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Yeah, watched it multiple times and recommended to many people I know.

One thing I disagree about with the guy from XIPH is that consumer-grade A/D converters are any good. There are more effects in play than he accounts for, mainly in the clock stability domain.
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Old 12-11-2016, 07:31 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avocadomix View Post
One thing I disagree about with the guy from XIPH is that consumer-grade A/D converters are any good. There are more effects in play than he accounts for, mainly in the clock stability domain.
Jitter manifests as distortion, and if it was a problem with consumer grade A/D converters it would show up in their distortion figures.

Have a look at this page and the graph on it.

http://audiosciencereview.com/forum/...ing.461/page-2

Even 1ns peak to peak jitter only produces distortion at around -90db below full scale at 20Khz. If an audio interface has lower distortion than that at 20Khz it has less than 1ns jitter, and that includes a lot of cheap gear.

It isn't that jitter doesn't matter, it's just a question of reasonable perspective. If you can't make a brilliant sounding recording with a $50 Sound Blaster Audigy FX, you can't blame the sound blaster. Better fidelity than most bands in most studios had up till the mid 90's. Miles better than the tape machines Pink Floyd had to record The Wall.

Last edited by drumphil; 12-11-2016 at 10:17 PM.
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Old 12-11-2016, 09:29 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by planetnine View Post
TBH, everybody here should watch this annually to ground themselves This should help you understand it and why it is used, and help you gauge the relative importance of it in the audio recording/mixing/mastering process.
Yes, should be required watching before anyone is allowed to say anything about digital audio.
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