Go Back   Cockos Incorporated Forums > REAPER Forums > newbieland

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-18-2017, 12:57 PM   #1
Woods1
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 93
Default How much arranging on paper before click record ?

I am new - but have posted in a couple other forums primarily about my first song and my first time in Reaper.
http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=187891
http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=187678

I have to re-do my scratch track guitar and vocal as the beginning of the "official" recording.

I am toiling with preliminary topics such as: tempo, click, intro bars, and how much arranging has to be decided on (on paper) before pressing record?

Can you help me with this stuff?

Ciao,
Woods
Woods1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2017, 03:52 PM   #2
Tod
Human being with feelings
 
Tod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Kalispell
Posts: 14,745
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woods1 View Post
I am new - but have posted in a couple other forums primarily about my first song and my first time in Reaper.
http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=187891
http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=187678

I have to re-do my scratch track guitar and vocal as the beginning of the "official" recording.

I am toiling with preliminary topics such as: tempo, click, intro bars, and how much arranging has to be decided on (on paper) before pressing record?

Can you help me with this stuff?
Hi Ciao, I very rarely use paper, but I do use other things in getting started. To best explain I'll use a scenario of one of my clients starting a new song. Now days most of them play guitar and write their own songs and I do all the arranging and midi recording. Basically I'm their producer.

Before I do anything on the computer, I'll have them play and sing the song, so I can get an idea of the flow, style, and tempo. I've got special SMPTE box that I can tap the tempo in and get somewhat of an idea for the BPM.

From there I'll decide how I'm going to record the guitar and vocal. I'll also decide on whether I'm going to have them play free form, or use a metronome track. Sometime a song seems to feel better in free form, which means I'll have to create a tempo map.

From there I'll set up the mics, get things plugged in, and set the earphones up. I've got several "Project Templates" set up so I'll select one that fits what I have in mind.

During the recording we'll make changes as they come up.

That's basically it, but of course every song and situation is different, so things are never accomplished in any one way.
Tod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2017, 04:14 PM   #3
Woods1
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 93
Default If not paper, then in the Head ?

I need to get started on this so ... ?

How do I find the tempo of my scratch tracks to enter into Reaper? I said I am numb with this part of the process.

I want to re-record the guitar part to my song. But don't I need to set the correct tempo in Reaper first? (Based on the scratch/guide demo)?

Or can I re-record the guitar track and then test for tempo and enter it then?

Ciao (means polite salutation in Italian and (some other languages),

Woods
Woods1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2017, 08:40 PM   #4
Woods1
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 93
Default What hind of intro do you think?

What hind of intro do you think my song should have?

Ciao,

Woods
Woods1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2017, 09:50 PM   #5
jerome_oneil
Human being with feelings
 
jerome_oneil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Seattle
Posts: 5,635
Default

None.

Press record. Listen. If you don't like what you hear, press record again.

I think you are falling into the "would rather fiddle with the computer than make music" trap, which is common for folks just starting out. The way you cure yourself of it is to stop fiddling with the computer, press record, and make some music.
jerome_oneil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2017, 10:26 PM   #6
Woods1
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 93
Default yOU ARE WORING

Just frustrated over here. So much to be learning.

We're trying to decide how to begin with tempo and click track and that kind of thing.

Thanks to everyone fro the help so far.
Ciao,
Woods

Last edited by Woods1; 02-19-2017 at 07:30 AM. Reason: After thought
Woods1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2017, 01:28 AM   #7
bucca
Human being with feelings
 
bucca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: near my POB
Posts: 388
Default

atm, dunno excatly who said it, but one of the known top 10 engineers hints, the most 3 important steps before cutting is pre production, pre production and pre production - that makes me thinking about any kind of "setup" before touching a knob - sometimes a lot of paperwork but worth it imo
bucca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2017, 10:03 AM   #8
jerome_oneil
Human being with feelings
 
jerome_oneil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Seattle
Posts: 5,635
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woods1 View Post
Just frustrated over here. So much to be learning.
That's because you're fiddling, and not playing.

Best way to learn this is practice. And you don't get practice on paper, you get it at the console.

Turn the mic on. You'll be glad you did.
jerome_oneil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2017, 04:54 AM   #9
g8torcliff
Human being with feelings
 
g8torcliff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,509
Default

For me I usually start with a midi highhat click track drug out to about 5 mins or so. I set the BPM to the speed I want to play at, rewind and hit the record button. I play the song thru on guitar with vocals as sort of a road map (scratch track that will be deleted later). Then I start adding the tracks that will be the final versions (guitars, bass, harmonica, vocals...)

I use a midi click track because I may want to add midi drums or some VSTi's later on. I give my self a couple measures of click track for intro (8 to 12 beats) so I have time to call up lyrics before i have to start playing....

stuff (intros..) can be edited so how long they are doesn't really matter to me.

I never do use any paper unless the chord progression is a little unruly....

cliff
g8torcliff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2017, 08:32 AM   #10
xaptronic
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 4
Default

I'm also a new to reaper / amateur audio "producer".

First, I think you should take advantage of the fact that Reaper allows you to record and throw away tracks as no cost with practically no overhead. You don't need to "use tape" or move hardware around (for the most part). Use Reaper as your paper - particularly if you are in writing mode.

If you have a track that is fully arranged and performance ready, as in you could get together with your band and play the song all the way through, more or less the same way everytime, then what do you need to worry about what you have on paper before starting to record? You could tap out the tempo and have that set, but even that doesn't _really_ matter if you have the song fully written.

On the other hand, if you have a riff or some concept or idea you want to explore, then while you could use paper perhaps to scratch out a couple notes on form, you can also use reaper to go from idea to full song. Start with a scratch track, then figure out a tempo, maybe add in a basic drum beat. Then maybe you come up with a second riff get a transition from idea "A" to idea "B", perhaps flush out the drums with some fills and variation, maybe rerecord your guitar parts and there you go.

The great thing about Reaper, and other popular DAW software, is that it's flexible enough to be both a writing tool and a production tool for when you have your ready to go song.

Part of my learning process, is that sometimes I will take songs I already know and just make covers out of them. This is useful as will let you focus on "figuring out how to do XYZ" in Reaper vs. trying to write and figure out Reaper at the same time. After a few covers, you'll have figured out how to produce certain effects and where all the various functions are so that when you are writing and go ah yes I want to have this effect, and I know I can do it with envelopes or with such and such a plugin.

Hopefully that helps.
xaptronic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2017, 08:41 AM   #11
insub
Human being with feelings
 
insub's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Louisville, KY, USA
Posts: 1,075
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woods1 View Post
I have to re-do my scratch track guitar and vocal as the beginning of the "official" recording.

I am toiling with preliminary topics such as: tempo, click, intro bars, and how much arranging has to be decided on (on paper) before pressing record?
This is a workflow question. In the end you'll have to determine what works best for you. You can either arrange songs on paper or inside Reaper. Arranging in Reaper will be much easier if you have recorded to click, but you can still do it in free-time recordings.

When I made hip-hop and techno, arranging in the DAW was a no-brainer. Everything was already run from a sequencer at strict tempo. But, when working with a band it becomes more complex. Especially if the members are unable/unwilling to play to click/metronome or if they are not good at conceptualizing changes in arrangement without hearing them first. In these cases you may need to work on your arrangements in the DAW.

You need to read up on these topics in the Use Manual:
Markers & Regions
Time Stretching

I have a link in my signature for directions on how to quantize free-time recorded scratch tracks. Once the scratch tracks have been stretched to the grid then it will be much easier to move regions around for arranging. The time-stretched audio will sound bad, but you will be overdubbing later anyway once the arrangement is set.

EDIT: I forgot to save my new signature with the link.
http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...9&postcount=12
__________________
Everything you need to know about samplerates and oversampling... maybe!
My Essential FREE 64bit VST Effects, ReaEQ Presets for Instruments
Windows 10 64 bit; MOTU 828 MKII, Audio Express, & 8PRE; Behringer ADA8000

Last edited by insub; 03-17-2017 at 12:16 PM.
insub is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2017, 10:24 AM   #12
Fergler
Human being with feelings
 
Fergler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 5,207
Default

You said 'we're' so this is a band?

Just play. Forget the computer, write and play the songs again and again and again. No paper, no daw.
Fergler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2017, 11:16 AM   #13
jerome_oneil
Human being with feelings
 
jerome_oneil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Seattle
Posts: 5,635
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fergler View Post
You said 'we're' so this is a band?

Just play. Forget the computer, write and play the songs again and again and again. No paper, no daw.
Dude actually posted up his first efforts somewhere around here. To his credit, it was pretty damn good.
jerome_oneil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2017, 02:17 PM   #14
DVDdoug
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Silicon Valley, CA
Posts: 2,779
Default

I'd say it's best to get all of the preliminary stuff done first. But, I'm a "technical guy" (not an artist) and that's the way I think.

It's certainly OK to hit record (or turn-on a portable recorder) whenever the inspiration hits you, but that's more to capture & remember the song/tune, etc., and most likely won't be used in the actual production.

The more organized of an approach you take, the more likely you are to actually finish the recording. A lot of recordings are never "finished" and that's often due to a lack of a methodical approach... and the lack of a deadline...

Of course, it's OK to make changes. But, it's probably best to have a "finished song" before you start recording.

Or if you're not a "structured" person, it's probably a good idea to have a checklist of things that have to get done.




...I've read some stuff about the early days of rock and roll... Back when studio time cost money and the record company was paying for it... The Beatles would record one song in the morning and another song in the afternoon, and the record was in the record store the next week! Then when they became mega-stars they were allowed to spend a month or more in the studio (with the tape rolling most of the time) and most of the time they were just fooling-around, writing songs, or just jamming, or whatever. At some point Jimi Hendrix had his own home studio and he could fool-around and experiment. (I don't know if any of his released songs were recorded at home.0
DVDdoug is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2017, 09:55 PM   #15
insub
Human being with feelings
 
insub's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Louisville, KY, USA
Posts: 1,075
Default

I don't know how good it is to compare home recordists with top 40 legends in this regard.

Recording and utilizing the DAW can be a great tool. "Just keep playing it over and over" doesn't mean that you'll make the best arrangement. Pro recording artists have a lot of help to get it right. They may have a producer, the recording engineer, and other talent around to help them.

I'd say, that most people these days are at home trying to do it all themselves. Arranging a song and playing it at the same time may be really easy for some people, but for the rest of us we need to be able to step back and give it a listen to make decisions. Recording gives us that perspective. A ballet dancer doesn't learn to dance without a mirror. Why shouldn't musicians take advantage of recording in the same manner?

Our band is working on new material right now. I record practically everything because the song material is new and people are figuring out parts and changes. Some of the one-off riffs are really stellar, and without having that recorded it is just dust in the wind. We can stop at any time and say, "Hey, what you just did was awesome! Work that in." And, sometimes, those little moments don't get noticed by others until playback.

People just need to figure out what works best for their band. Some can make arrangement decisions on the fly. That's great. I like to get into the moment with the song and just keep recording it all. Then pick the parts that are best and get each member to use those cool parts.

A lot of which method you choose may be related to available practice time. I can only have band practice once a week. So, we try to create as much as possible in a few hours as we can. We made two "songs" (instrumentals) tonight in about 1.5 hrs. That's not enough time to just play it over and over while working out the arrangement. That would be pointless anyway, because we will arrange the music around the vocals when they get figured out later. Having the recording is crucial for our band to document and distribute song ideas to be pondered between practice sessions.

I don't think we'll be chopping the songs up in the DAW to work out the arrangements, but certainly, the option is there if the need arises.
__________________
Everything you need to know about samplerates and oversampling... maybe!
My Essential FREE 64bit VST Effects, ReaEQ Presets for Instruments
Windows 10 64 bit; MOTU 828 MKII, Audio Express, & 8PRE; Behringer ADA8000
insub is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2017, 02:15 PM   #16
martifingers
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 2,695
Default

I always think Mike Oldfield was the home recordist writ large in that nowadays many of us try and combine composing, arranging, performing and engineering and he was doing it er. nearly 50 years ago! (I know others like Les Paul were even earlier but Oldfield's music seemed to develop along with the technology.) And he seems to have used paper for arrangements etc. See http://www.mike-oldfield.es/fotos/409.jpg

But equally others simply press play and then overdub, cut and paste punch-in etc etc.
I wonder if for instance Brian Wilson had his music already notated before recording?

Personally I think sometimes being a bit organised on paper can help focus effort and assist in actually completing something but like a lot of things in music there don't seem to be any rules. Wasn't it Thelonius Monk who always said "Wrong is right"?
martifingers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2017, 02:41 PM   #17
Tod
Human being with feelings
 
Tod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Kalispell
Posts: 14,745
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by martifingers View Post
I always think Mike Oldfield was the home recordist writ large in that nowadays many of us try and combine composing, arranging, performing and engineering and he was doing it er. nearly 50 years ago! (I know others like Les Paul were even earlier but Oldfield's music seemed to develop along with the technology.) And he seems to have used paper for arrangements etc. See http://www.mike-oldfield.es/fotos/409.jpg

But equally others simply press play and then overdub, cut and paste punch-in etc etc.
I wonder if for instance Brian Wilson had his music already notated before recording?

Personally I think sometimes being a bit organised on paper can help focus effort and assist in actually completing something but like a lot of things in music there don't seem to be any rules. Wasn't it Thelonius Monk who always said "Wrong is right"?
Back in those days everybody used charts and there were very few musicians who couldn't read them.

Even today a client will come in with the words and chords on paper. But it don't take me long to get it all in Reaper as text.
Tod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2017, 07:26 PM   #18
Sinner
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 453
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woods1 View Post
I need to get started on this so ... ?

How do I find the tempo of my scratch tracks to enter into Reaper? I said I am numb with this part of the process.

I want to re-record the guitar part to my song. But don't I need to set the correct tempo in Reaper first? (Based on the scratch/guide demo)?

Or can I re-record the guitar track and then test for tempo and enter it then?

Ciao (means polite salutation in Italian and (some other languages),

Woods
Like the other poster, I usually decide whether I'm going to play to a metronome or not. Depends on the type of music sometimes. More pop stuff, a lot of time I start out with a click. More rock, I record without, and tempo sync it post.

But if you want to get the tempo ahead of time, a few ways...you can tap the tempo right into Reaper with your mouse on the bpm button if I recall correctly.

I usually have a midi pedal myself, Disaster Area Smartclock, but I have that for other reasons. There are also smartphone apps for counting bpm.

If Im doing it to a click. I dont use any paper. I usually do a scratch track with guitar and vocals. Then I use markers in Reaper for stuff like intro, verse, chorus. That makes it easy to change my mind, e.g. insert an extra couple bars here or there, add a space for a solo or break.

Though sometimes I do have chords or sheet music written out, but I think of that as more learning the song more than arranging. I dont usually record something I havent played a few times.
__________________
My band: www.foglings.com

Last edited by Sinner; 03-18-2017 at 07:32 PM.
Sinner is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:02 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.