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Old 12-17-2014, 12:54 PM   #1
Wedoh
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Default Imported audio is louder in Reaper

Today i imported 5 recorded 5 sec long sine waves at different frequencys. 50,100,200,1600,12800 Hz, all peaking at -12 dBFS.
When i sum them all together in different DAWs the outcome is mostly the same and at the same level, but when i did the same in Reaper the master sum level got to high and distorted.

I have not changed any setting in Reaper, and Pan law is set to default at 0dB. I imported 24 bit audiofiles and exported in fulltime offline mode at 24bit.

Are files level normalized in someway in Reaper? Or what could be wrong? :S

I add some information bellow.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Export in Reaper.jpg (63.4 KB, 218 views)
File Type: jpg FFT Comparison - Cubase, Pro Tools, Reaper.jpg (51.0 KB, 264 views)
File Type: jpg Spectogram Comparison - Cubase, Pro Tools, Reaper.jpg (38.5 KB, 242 views)
File Type: jpg Waveform Comparison - Cubase, Pro Tools, Reaper.jpg (42.6 KB, 270 views)
Attached Files
File Type: rpp DAW Test - Reaper.RPP (11.6 KB, 183 views)
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Old 12-17-2014, 03:34 PM   #2
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Man, these images are small. I am getting old. Sorry, can't help. Please post better pics.
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Old 12-17-2014, 03:38 PM   #3
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I can't see your project, and the pictures don't really help me much, but I can say that if you were to sum 5 identical signals, each peaking at -12dbfs, then the result will peak at just about +2dbfs. Now, these are not identical signals, but there pretty much has to be at least one point (probably several) in that 5 seconds where all of the peaks "accidentally" line up.

I think the question is not why Reaper is clipping, but rather why the others aren't. What was the pan law on the other DAWs?
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Old 12-17-2014, 04:23 PM   #4
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50,100,200,1600,12800 at -12 in Sum=+0.3
if i export the master sum(44.1/24) in different daws without changing anything (Level etc. pp) and import these render files and make a null test(phase) - than the(my)level is -inf.
So every DAW render the same thing.. +0.3 dbfs
the question is really:
"Quote:I think the question is not why Reaper is clipping, but rather why your others aren't. "
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Old 12-17-2014, 04:31 PM   #5
Wedoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashcat_lt View Post
I can't see your project, and the pictures don't really help me much, but I can say that if you were to sum 5 identical signals, each peaking at -12dbfs, then the result will peak at just about +2dbfs. Now, these are not identical signals, but there pretty much has to be at least one point (probably several) in that 5 seconds where all of the peaks "accidentally" line up.

I think the question is not why Reaper is clipping, but rather why the others aren't. What was the pan law on the other DAWs?
Cubase Pan law was "Equal power" and i could not find any pan law in my PT 8 LE.

I have now created a test to see the outcome when using only 1kHz sine waves.

I recorded one 5 sec long 1 kHz sine wave peaking @ -20 dBFS in PT and added it into 5 separate channels. After that i imported the same recorded sine wave into Cubase and Reaper and did the same thing. At playback in PT/Cubase the master peaked at around -9 dBFS and in Reaper the master peaked at around -6 dBFS (Peak meter).

After bouncing/exporting the mixdown of all 5 channels in each DAW and analyzing the results in Sonic Visualiser i found out that the frequency response and peak level for each DAW was different. In Reaper the peak level was some dB louder when compared to Cubase and Pro Tools.

Bellow are the results from this test. The two different FFT pictures are the results of analyzing the three master mixdowns together at various time spots. From the top is the results for Cubase, Pro Tools and Reaper in this order.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg FFT 1.jpg (54.0 KB, 249 views)
File Type: jpg FFT 2.jpg (56.9 KB, 225 views)
File Type: jpg FFT level.jpg (48.7 KB, 182 views)
File Type: jpg Pro Tools - Master level.jpg (53.1 KB, 284 views)
File Type: jpg Reaper - Master level.jpg (47.9 KB, 245 views)
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Old 12-17-2014, 04:46 PM   #6
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"Equal power" and 0db are not the same.
" in Reaper, and Pan law is set to default at 0dB"

Eq power = -9 in Sum
0 db =-6 in Sum
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Old 12-17-2014, 04:52 PM   #7
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Yup, Pan Law is the problem. In those other DAWs, centered material is being attenuated by 3db, which is exactly the difference between the mixes.
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Old 12-17-2014, 04:56 PM   #8
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cubase and PT default=-3db

Selecting the 0dB option effectively turns off con-
stant-power panning.

“Equal Power" means that the
power of the signal will remain the same regardless of the
pan setting.
Which is near default -3 db in center

jope ashcat_lt ^^
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Last edited by ELP; 12-17-2014 at 05:01 PM.
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Old 12-17-2014, 05:11 PM   #9
Wedoh
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Now i think i understand. But why attenuate with 3 dB at the panning stage?

Whats the benefit from not attenuating the signal at the pan?

Btw do any one have an idea of why the frequency response varies? :S

Last edited by Wedoh; 12-17-2014 at 05:29 PM.
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Old 12-17-2014, 05:51 PM   #10
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If you send the same signal to two speakers in a room, they will add together acoustically and be louder than if you sent it to only one or the other. So, if you move the signal around, there can be a perceived shift in volume as it goes through the center. It's not a huge deal unless you're automating pans (flying things around) because you'll naturally just adjust the volume fader, but some folks find it that one or the other of the pan laws just plain feels better and more intuitive. Note that the pan law from the track is compounded by the pan law of any bus/folder that it runs through. For that reason, and just simplicity, I leave mine at 0db.

Edit -
Pan Law per Wiki

Edit again - freq response varies because of the distortion artifacts.

Last edited by ashcat_lt; 12-17-2014 at 06:04 PM.
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Old 12-17-2014, 06:07 PM   #11
Wedoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashcat_lt View Post
If you send the same signal to two speakers in a room, they will add together acoustically and be louder than if you sent it to only one or the other. So, if you move the signal around, there can be a perceived shift in volume as it goes through the center. It's not a huge deal unless you're automating pans (flying things around) because you'll naturally just adjust the volume fader, but some folks find it that one or the other of the pan laws just plain feels better and more intuitive. Note that the pan law from the track is compounded by the pan law of any bus/folder that it runs through. For that reason, and just simplicity, I leave mine at 0db.

Edit -
Pan Law per Wiki

Edit again - freq response varies because of the distortion artifacts.
Now i think i understand, thank you. And thank you all for your answers and help.
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Old 12-17-2014, 07:04 PM   #12
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Ableton live for example use generell -3dB +Gain compensation

That means -20dB mono source at center = -20dB sum
komplette pan to left or right = -17dB

-3dB without Gain compensation
-20db mono source at center = -23dB sum
komplette pan to left or right = -20db
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Last edited by ELP; 12-17-2014 at 07:10 PM.
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Old 12-18-2014, 04:53 AM   #13
Wedoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ELP View Post
Ableton live for example use generell -3dB +Gain compensation

That means -20dB mono source at center = -20dB sum
komplette pan to left or right = -17dB

-3dB without Gain compensation
-20db mono source at center = -23dB sum
komplette pan to left or right = -20db
Thank you for clearing this out.

And i guess the -3 dB without gain is equal power? Meaning when the sound is panned center it gets attenuated 3 dB to not create a perceived louder level while both speakers play the same thing. Thus a panned signal will sound equal in loudness while being panned all over the stereopanorama, without being affected by the acoustical amplification/perceived loudness boost of using two speakers reproducing the same material.

If i record in stereo with an X/Y configuration, does the equal power pan law even out the center where both microphones pic up the same thing?
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Old 12-18-2014, 06:20 AM   #14
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Panning is after record.

"-3 dB without gain is equal power?"
no near.

In between center and max pan the values are a little bit different .
Equal power is maybe more for your ears, during -3dB is static curve.
For me EqP is more a gimmick for marketing.
You can run into problems if you shared those eqp mix with other DAWs or Hardware.

The best is really you use generell 0db and only change different mono sources to other values if you need this for realistic pan automation or want to share with other DAWs and or Hardware.

The different between Reaper and other Daws is, you can change this everywhere and not only global.

I personally think -3 dB+Gain is better than -3db without gain.
With gain the level of mono sources in center are not changed.
That is also what Abelton use.

But otherwise I use global 0dB and change only selectively.
One reason is for example:
"Quote ashcat_lt Note that the pan law from the track is compounded by the pan law of any bus/folder that it runs through"

and the other reason is..... you can see it here if files shared with other DAWs and the Pan law levels between DAWs/Harsware are different. Just a yoke
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Last edited by ELP; 12-18-2014 at 06:49 AM.
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Old 12-18-2014, 11:19 AM   #15
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It's worth mentioning that most analog mixing boards have some type of pan-law in play, and so it has been the standard in mixing for years. A person who's very used to mixing out of the box may find the 0db thing unsettling for a while.
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Old 12-21-2014, 12:31 PM   #16
Wedoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashcat_lt View Post
It's worth mentioning that most analog mixing boards have some type of pan-law in play, and so it has been the standard in mixing for years. A person who's very used to mixing out of the box may find the 0db thing unsettling for a while.
Interesting, i dident know that. I only knew Studer uses some type of HRTF timedifference panlaw.
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