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Old 09-09-2014, 05:20 AM   #1
Stroudy
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Default Reaper's Terminology - Conflicting terms

Reaper wouldn't be the only DAW to suffer from this, but some of the terms it uses can be haphazard. It makes searching for an action harder than it has to be.

Take for instance "Ignore Snapping". I've been trying to change a Mouse Modifier from "Deselect all items and move edit cursor IGNORING SNAP" to "Move edit cursor IGNORING SNAP".

Except in Actions it's not called IGNORE SNAP, it's NO SNAPPING.

Should there be a repository for terms that are inconsistent?
-----

Following my above post I've decided to list interchangeable (read inconsistent) terms here.

As much as I can, I'll try to keep this list up to date following people's suggestions. Although I'm not sure how I might handle this if future versions update some of the terms.

Please check your suggestions before submitting and include a Cmd ID


The List
=====

Ignore snap = No snapping View: Move edit cursor to mouse cursor (no snapping) 40514
play position = edit cursor: View: go to play position 40150
Deselect = Unselect: (numerous instances) e.g. Unselect all items 40289 and Mouse modifier "Deselect all items" 39579

Last edited by Stroudy; 09-09-2014 at 04:31 PM.
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Old 09-09-2014, 05:22 AM   #2
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Egh, that repository would be quite long indeed. :/
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Old 09-09-2014, 07:02 AM   #3
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I think we need an FR for a thesaurus in the Action List filter


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Old 09-09-2014, 07:06 AM   #4
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HAhahahhah Love it.

Maybe one of our own would be a bad idea - as it's good enough to allow the use of OR & AND it could be useful.

Can we think of any terms that are interchangeable?

Ignore Snap = No Snapping
Start/End = Left/Right Edge
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Old 09-09-2014, 08:12 AM   #5
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My favorite are the actions with "selected track" in the name but it really means 'last touched'. (ie. should have been named "last touched track" as 'last touched' & 'selected' are 2 different attributes)

Makes for a few rounds of WTF when writing a script!
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Old 09-09-2014, 08:33 AM   #6
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+1000 the names are a real mess...
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Old 09-09-2014, 08:58 AM   #7
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Just an FYI that the action search IIRC ignores order so you can just enter words or partial words making it much more useful minus semantic worries such as snap ignor.

Don't quote me until I pull reaper up and test though.
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Old 09-09-2014, 12:36 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
Just an FYI that the action search IIRC ignores order so you can just enter words or partial words making it much more useful minus semantic worries such as snap ignor.

Don't quote me until I pull reaper up and test though.

Yes it does, and it's how I use it when I'm making custom actions. It can stump you, but not much escapes you after two, three or four goes at different synonyms.

Maybe we should have a thread where people can report inconsistencies, maybe build up a keyword list so people can search it (or even add keywords to the filter in REAPER?)

Just an idea...


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Old 09-09-2014, 12:51 PM   #9
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"transpose" == "move notes up/down"
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Old 09-09-2014, 01:41 PM   #10
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'Unnecessarily Verbose' would be how I'd describe it.

"Move to Source Preferred Position (used by BWF)" = Move to Origin.
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Old 09-09-2014, 01:42 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
'Unnecessarily Verbose' would be how I'd describe it.
Yep, that.
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Old 09-09-2014, 03:03 PM   #12
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had to laugh ...

has anyone ever read a Roland manual from the 80s? uh ... best was the german version. they had words like "computer" or "MIDI Program Change" literally translated to german, regardless if there was a german word for it or not. :-))))

or have a look at microsoft ... :-((((

so in case of Reaper (as in every other software-case) there had to be a workgroup to lay down the rules of terminolgie. in science this is done by nomenklatura-conferences. the problem of name-the-thing-in-an-appropriate-way is everywhere existent.

I know what I am talking about, naming 1000s of scripts in application servers. the same problem.
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Old 09-09-2014, 03:32 PM   #13
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I always felt that this whole issue gets even worse when trying to localize Reaper.
In most cases the verbosity is not that a problem IMHO, because it helps newbies to understand what's going on and if you're not a newbie anymore you don't read eg. menu entries anyway, but choose them by their look or position in the menu.

EDIT: @ whiteaxxxe: not that I ignored your posting - I was just too slow writing it. Otherwise it would have been placed above yours.
But to pick up your thought: a company like Cockos wouldn't be able to develop a software like Reaper (that rapidly) if they had to build terminology committees.
But to imagine such a committee, how they're sitting around a table, bickering about words like "item" or so, is quite funny.

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Old 09-09-2014, 03:52 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Data View Post
But to imagine such a committee, how they're sitting around a table, bickering about words like "item" or so, is quite funny.

-Data
that was the intention. :-) was not meant as a real suggestion.
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Old 09-09-2014, 03:58 PM   #15
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Howl due eye looke uhp ann akshion bye kname when eye kant spel mweye weigh owlt uv eh papper bhag?

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Old 09-09-2014, 04:33 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serr View Post
My favorite are the actions with "selected track" in the name but it really means 'last touched'. (ie. should have been named "last touched track" as 'last touched' & 'selected' are 2 different attributes)

Makes for a few rounds of WTF when writing a script!
Couldn't find that. Can you give an example with Cmd ID?
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Old 09-09-2014, 04:40 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whiteaxxxe View Post
that was the intention. :-) was not meant as a real suggestion.
Yes, I know.

-Data
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Old 09-09-2014, 07:06 PM   #18
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Perhaps this thread should be merged with this one http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=122241
And this one
http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=121094
And probably a half dozen others.

I suppose it's ok to dream, but I'm not getting my hopes up that this will ever change.
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Old 09-10-2014, 12:37 AM   #19
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It ain't just Reaper - Spot on import = insert at origin = move to origin = time stamp = sync broadcast wave = use sync positions = paste in place = sync in place = original time stamp = sync tab = move to source preferred position

- all are supposed to mean 'read time-code' but no person not steeped in audio jargon and gobbledygook would know this.

There may be copyright and other IP considerations that prevent using some of these phrases, but the words 'time-code' are not protected and they actually mean something.

Even simple things are turned by some programmes into obscure gibberish. Import becomes place, spot, insert, anything but what it actually is. As for 'render' there must be dozens of silly words that mean nothing to anybody.
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Old 09-10-2014, 01:23 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Byre View Post
It ain't just Reaper - Spot on import = insert at origin = move to origin = time stamp = sync broadcast wave = use sync positions = paste in place = sync in place = original time stamp = sync tab = move to source preferred position

- all are supposed to mean 'read time-code' but no person not steeped in audio jargon and gobbledygook would know this.

There may be copyright and other IP considerations that prevent using some of these phrases, but the words 'time-code' are not protected and they actually mean something.

Even simple things are turned by some programmes into obscure gibberish. Import becomes place, spot, insert, anything but what it actually is. As for 'render' there must be dozens of silly words that mean nothing to anybody.

The timecode nomenclature is a funny one as it has a specific meaning.

Timecode is SMPTE LTC or VITC to most users; what is stored in a BWF wave file is sample offset, and to get timecode from that you need the sample rate (given) and also the frame-rate (which doesn't have to exist, you can use BWF offset without recourse to film or video).

So what do you call it if it isn't strictly "timecode"? Sample offset is actually much more accurate, it has a much higher resolution and is something you can derive timecode from (given the frame-rate).




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Old 09-10-2014, 01:55 AM   #21
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I know that and you know that, but most users of Reaper, PT, Logic, Soundscape, Cubase etc., etc., etc., do not. We speak fluent gobbledygook, they do not!

I spent years writing about this (and other technical) stuff and mostly for executives making all those bogus executive decisions - and they needed their information in words they understand. Many, many, many years ago, an executive did not even need to know how to drive a car - he had a man for that. He did not need to know how to type a letter, he had a secretary for that. He did not need to even understand the books, he had an accountant for that.

Today we live in the age of self-drive. The record producer has to edit and mix the recordings, just as the executive has to drive his own car, make his own calls and even type his own letters.

To that end, he or she needs computer programmes that are easy to use and have commands that are familiar. If he or she wants to import a file, the command 'IMPORT' would be the logical choice. If they want to render out a bit of audio, the command 'RENDER' would be the best. If they want some file to comply with its original time-code, a command that makes mention of TIME-CODE would be the easiest to understand.

Loose talk of SMPTE and sample-offset will only confuse the poor sap! If he/she looks up these terms, they will assume that it has something to do with television or an Akai sampler from the 80s.

Right now this very day, I am trying to teach an old muso friend the basics of Reaper and he is struggling, not because he is stupid, but because each and every command uses a word and refers to a concept that he is totally unfamiliar with. When DAWs use words like 'bounce' and 'spot' or 'glue' and 'insert' they just frighten off those unfamiliar with the deeper arts of gobbledygook.
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Old 09-10-2014, 03:15 AM   #22
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I had a think about this and I do actually use the term offset when teaching clients: "Drag-in (import) a wav-file and it appears as an item. Make sure it's selected and press Alt-T to move it to its time offset..." However I cannot swear to never having used the term "timecode" to describe the offset. REAPER's Source Properties also calls it a "start offset"

The standard that put that information into a chunk in the waveform calls it a "time reference", "First sample count since midnight", so "source preferred position" doesn't sound so convoluted after all...

However I agree with you about common word usage and terminology simplification, and timecode should be a broader term than its specific usage in film/video/post.

Dammit, you've got me looking through my REAPER script tools looking at the parameter terms, and even the names I gave some of the variables in the script...


Edit: The bit that does gall me about REAPER is the usage of the word "volume" for fader gain, it is terribly incorrect and sounds so "Fisher-Price" that it could have been written for A&R...


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Old 09-10-2014, 03:34 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by planetnine View Post
I had a think about this and I do actually use the term offset when teaching clients: "Drag-in (import) a wav-file and it appears as an item. Make sure it's selected and press Alt-T to move it to its time offset..." However I cannot swear to never having used the term "timecode" to describe the offset. REAPER's Source Properties also calls it a "start offset"

The standard that put that information into a chunk in the waveform calls it a "time reference", "First sample count since midnight", so "source preferred position" doesn't sound so convoluted after all...

However I agree with you about common word usage and terminology simplification, and timecode should be a broader term than its specific usage in film/video/post.

Dammit, you've got me looking through my REAPER script tools looking at the parameter terms, and even the names I gave some of the variables in the script...


Edit: The bit that does gall me about REAPER is the usage of the word "volume" for fader gain, it is terribly incorrect and sounds so "Fisher-Price" that it could have been written for A&R...


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You're killing me.... I guess I've become gobbledegeeky too. I had my wife read what you just wrote. She looked at me and asked, "WTF?". Ha...

Now she thinks I'm really smart. Waaaaaay over her head.



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Old 09-10-2014, 04:01 AM   #24
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With reaper there's huge amount of small stuff that should be addressed.

There's documentation not thoroughly kept up to date, there's no good system to read feature requests / bug reports through to find ones already addressed or ones you would want to vote for, lots of stuff in feature requests/bug reports hasn't been addressed since they were proposed and they have had the time to sink well below the radar because of it. Even if they were really badly in need of fixing (reaInsert anyone?)

Many misdirected posts or solved issue that haven't been marked as fixed in the tracker... or as you found out: inconsistencies with terms used in the API and program itself.

Refactoring of forums, the code itself and documentation would be in order imho.

But the software somewhat works... so maybe no-one ever does anything to fix these little buggers.
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Old 09-10-2014, 04:27 AM   #25
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Not sure about "offset" for time stamp. To me (mmv) offset is something offset from it's origin time and origin is the time you hit the record button, where the recording started.

If you name origin offset, what do you then call it when you offset a clip from it's origin?
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Old 09-10-2014, 05:12 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icchan View Post
there's no good system to read feature requests / bug reports through to find ones already addressed or ones you would want to vote for,
On Google:

<your search string here> site:cockos.com/project.php? -issuelist

Quote:
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Many misdirected posts or solved issue that haven't been marked as fixed in the tracker
Please list/report/bump those. http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=119434
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Old 09-10-2014, 05:33 AM   #27
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Parent / Child

It's just weird in the context of an audio application.

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Old 09-10-2014, 05:45 AM   #28
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Parent / Child

It's just weird in the context of an audio application.
Yeah, maybe. Automation parameters have to have a parent, an origin, they have to have come from somewhere as (like real children) they can't just pop into existence alone, they have to have been birthed from something else.

Where the automation track gets the additional flexibility is that the "children" aren't always locked in the house with the parent, they can roam.

Technically speaking, that's the difference between a track and a lane, that a track has no parent but the arrange space while lanes have parents that are tracks. If you can't put a thing directly on the arrange space by itself, it's not a track, more a child of a track.

In this case you could say that automation tracks allow automation lanes (the children) to "grow up" a little. Reaper's automation lanes are like toddlers, in some cases (like with editing multiple envelopes) they can't even play together or move freely inside their own house, let alone playing with other people's kids outside.

Last edited by Lawrence; 09-10-2014 at 06:02 AM.
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Old 09-11-2014, 01:44 PM   #29
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Funny, because REAPER seems targeted towards the engineer mentality such as myself, yet there's still organization and consistancy issues everywhere. Nothing horrible, but definitely makes you think, "Why?" Well, why not?
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Old 09-11-2014, 11:43 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Byre View Post
they needed their information in words they BARELY understand.
FIFY
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Old 09-12-2014, 12:09 PM   #31
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Parent / Child

It's just weird in the context of an audio application.
This one also confuses the hell out of the new users!

Looks for all the world like the vestigial remains from when Reaper was only a 2 track Bias Peak-like editor and didn't have the routing abilities it has now.

By all means keep the checkbox shortcut but have the master track send appear like a normal send to any other track for consistency!

Then follow up and make the 'parent' bus tracks (folder version) appear in the correct columns in the routing matrix so you can use the routing matrix with the older style folder busing method. Currently any 'parent' tracks appear as the 'master' track in the routing matrix. (ie. in the same column so you can't tell them apart)
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Old 09-12-2014, 12:14 PM   #32
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move to originally recorded position (using BWF)

the (using BWF) needs to be there in order for people to know you can't use it on just about any file... if it wasn't recorded in reaper with BWF info...
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Old 09-13-2014, 03:12 AM   #33
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FIFY
@ Ivan - I have to admit, when I hand out with business people today, they LOVE to use jargon to an extent that makes your head spin. When they are not obsessing about all things on-line ("Since the G has changed the SEO algorithms and is moving into a PPC matrix, we are moving from WP to a more modular authoring.") and I am forced sometimes to ask them what the hell they are talking about.

I attended a board meeting once, where one person said that we have to consult stake-holders and do DD when issuing a OFW.

After about two minutes of discussion, we discovered that he meant we need to tell employees what we are up to and perform due diligence (i.e. a credit and other checks) when ordering services from outside the company (all that OFW meant order for works).

I was once asked by some researcher "To what degree is the compensation incentive structure of business line employees at your organisation linked to risk management?" When I asked him to rephrase that in English, he couldn't!

Or as one Lancashire business owner said, after being asked to 'touch base' about a 'structural matrix' - "Either you learn to speak English, or get out!"

I must go now, as I am being incentivised and may suffer a paradigm shift. (You can do it too, after I've finished!)
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Old 09-13-2014, 07:36 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill View Post
move to originally recorded position (using BWF)
Edit: I erased all that stuff, Reaper just doesn't work that way.

Last edited by Lawrence; 09-13-2014 at 09:09 AM.
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Old 09-13-2014, 08:24 AM   #35
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Wavpack carries the timestamp with it, so that's a plus. Reapers Wavpack files include that as well.

If you unpack WAVPACK files that Reaper produced, it'll contain the timestamp as well.

If you pack up a WAV file with the external commandline Flac compressor, you'll need to engage the switch for keeping all extra chunks.

--keep-foreign-metadata (Save/restore WAVE or AIFF non-audio chunks)

Then it'll unpack to include the BWAV chunk as well. Maybe that's a decent FR to present to Cockos, since they do it for Wavpack. An "Include timestamp" for the Flac exporter that then uses that --keep-foreign-metadata .

I'm sure I wasn't the only one that pestered Josh(Flac author) for that function after David (Wavpack) was kind enough to keep all chunks by default in an update.
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Old 09-13-2014, 08:27 AM   #36
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Beat me to it Airon, I was about to mention Wavpack.


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Old 09-13-2014, 08:28 AM   #37
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Wavpack carries the timestamp with it, so that's a plus.

If you pack up a WAV file with the external commandline Flac compressor, you'll need to engage the switch for keeping all extra chunks. Then it'll unpack to include the BWAV chunk as well. Maybe that's a decent FR to present.
Yeah, what's (was) happening above was being done by the daws, not the file format. I mean, if I have a timestamped audio file recorded at X:XX time, for what reason (if the file is never leaving the daw, just being format converted) would I just toss the timestamp info when it can still be useful and I already know what it is?

It's just a small collection of numbers that can still be associated with a media clip. Of course, that won't follow the clip on export if the export file format metadata doesn't support it, but inside the daw it's tracking it's own media clips, or rather, holding on to that information.

At any rate, that was just a bad assumption on my part.

The difference there between those two (removed) examples and Reaper as relates to that may be that both of those products allow converting file formats directly on the timeline, in place, and Reaper does a render and (I guess) import of the new file ... but it could maybe still associate a known timestamp in that case. Inside the daw it's just another clip property, like the clip name.

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Old 03-10-2018, 05:34 AM   #38
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It's 2018 and this is STILL a problem.

Physical screen shots, with number on top, and explanations below would go a long way.

Mouse modifiers that depend on an undefined position is killing me. Media item, edge, bottom half, etc. Then there is some undefined hierarchy of defaults. This is unnecessarily painful and I have wasted a ton of time on it.
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Old 03-10-2018, 10:39 PM   #39
hopi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Schenk View Post
Howl due eye looke uhp ann akshion bye kname when eye kant spel mweye weigh owlt uv eh papper bhag?

:-Don
I think the correct spelling is "bhage"... but the 'e' is silent
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...should be fixed for the next build... http://tinyurl.com/cr7o7yl
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Old 07-02-2018, 08:52 AM   #40
Stroudy
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Selected Area / Time Selection

Argh!! Pick one!!

Thought it would be fun to revive this thread
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