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Old 01-20-2016, 05:47 PM   #1
mhuss
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Default Plugin DRM - what a nightmare

So the Windows 10 install on my main computer crashes and burns (the dreaded error 0xC000021A, then "automatic repair did not work"). Arrgh. No clone of my C: drive since I upgraded to Windows 10 -- double arrgh. After trying lots of different recovery approaches (and much googling) I had to give up, wipe the drive and reinstall.

Reinstalling Windows - pretty painless.
Reinstalling REAPER - pretty painless (I had to rescue some INI files from a recent backup).
Getting all the plugs working again -- WHAT A FREAKING NIGHTMARE. I have all my music software on a separate drive, so it was not touched by the C: drive problem. However, the @%^$@!! DRM software on C was gone along with all the registry entries, etc.

The non-protected VSTs were almost all fine, ready to go.

The protected ones ... every damn company has their own way of doing things, so I had to re-auth here, re-install there, re-register over there. It took me a whole long evening just getting most of my plugs working. Thank God I keep very good records of all my serials and auth codes.

I understand why companies do this, but it sure makes for a miserable user experience. One at a time is not too bad, but when you have to do them all at once...

Sigh.
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Old 01-20-2016, 07:10 PM   #2
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... No clone of my C: drive since I upgraded to Windows 10
Let's hope that the Microsoft plan of Windows 10 being the final version ever, will prevent this from happening to anyone again... assuming an image is available.
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Old 01-21-2016, 02:27 PM   #3
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It could have just as easily been the main HD failing (on any OS). I'd still have the same headaches getting the all the plugs going again. >:-(
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Old 01-21-2016, 02:31 PM   #4
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You would just have to recover the system drive from the image to the new HDD... everything would be intact without having to reinstall the vsts.
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Old 01-21-2016, 04:32 PM   #5
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Mhuss,
Cold comfort for you but I was glad how painless the upgrade (change) to Windows 10 was. The majority of licenses simply working as before.

I have backed up my Windows 10 drive and samples drive.

Gerry P,
Hmm, last ever operating system product branded Windows perhaps........
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Old 01-21-2016, 04:32 PM   #6
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Just went through the whole thing myself and agree completely. Re-installing a whole operating system and even setting up my fav programs was nothing compared to get the plugins going. It's a huge PITA.

In my case it even took several days as the FXpansion ones had 'run out' of authorizations (it's only been 3, what do you expect since Windows XP through to Windows 10 + whatever disk/system changes for godssake), so I had to send an old fashioned email to get more and that took a day (lucky it wasn't weekend), at which point the authorization manager stopped functioning for some bizarre reason even if I hadn't touched it since last try. Then it turns out my IK Multimedia stuff also takes an evening of fussing (once one thing is authorized, the other de-authorizes etc), and support ticket (another day) didn't help.

Neither my FXpansion or IK Multimeida stuff still works and this time I've had enough so just gonna sell or scrap all from those companies, even if it means a loss and old projects no longer working. Enough is enough.

The annoying thing is to know that they could just have used whatever others are using and which works, but they rather not even if it's bound to cause users hassle.
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Old 01-25-2016, 01:17 PM   #7
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Lost the access to my Waves licenses after replacing the wifi dongle. Reverted to using the old one (in hope the MAC address was all what's needed) but it didn't help. System restore - nope as well, still no Waves. Plugin DRM is indeed lovely.
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Old 01-25-2016, 02:13 PM   #8
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hah ... i´m currently doing the same, just took a break from the installation marathon.
My system harddisk decided to surrender on Saturday evening. Of course, literally seconds after the last store closed for the weekend. If it was the data harddisk, I could have replaced it with one of 2 backups without any hassle, as it only contains drag-and-drop´able files. But no, it´s the system, which I wasn´t able to make a backup before. Now I am, I tell ya...


Windows: done in 30 minutes, installation process runs on its own.
Drivers: maybe 5 minutes?
most plugins: done in seconds.
Reaper: ahahaha

at the moment I´m staring at the PACE folder, sweating and shaking all over.
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Old 01-25-2016, 02:27 PM   #9
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once in a similar situation I wished there were a tool, that tracks all system changes and registry keys while installing a plugin. and would export all folders with paths with relevant content and the relevant registry keys, so that you could after a systems clean install re-import all these things and everything works as before. assumed you have your plugins on another than the C:\-drive.

is there such a tool? would it be very complicated to make such a tool? I dont know, but I think it would be extremely useful.
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Old 01-25-2016, 03:04 PM   #10
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Some plugins like Sylenth1 didn't need to be done anything with, it was still authorized and worked straight away even with a complete format and new OS. There wasn't even a need to re-install it. I guess the dll is changed during authorization and nothing else which is very nice and makes perfect sense. If only they could all be like that there would be no need for the nightmare that is plugin re-installing.
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Old 01-25-2016, 03:32 PM   #11
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Lost the access to my Waves licenses after replacing the wifi dongle. Reverted to using the old one (in hope the MAC address was all what's needed) but it didn't help. System restore - nope as well, still no Waves. Plugin DRM is indeed lovely.
One more reason why I'll never buy anything from Waves.
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Old 01-25-2016, 04:37 PM   #12
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Oh yeah I hear you on this, and have learnt this the hard way when reviving old projects or transferring projects between computers. Challenge/response and Ilok systems are just not an option for me anymore.

That is why I only deal with companies that don't treat me like a crook, such as Cockos, U-he, Valhalla, Fabfilter and a few others that only use serial protection. Add to that the sheer number of high quality free plugins, and where there is a will, there is a way!

My last 2 holdouts are ez drummer and TH2, but they will eventually be replaced. Rompler products in general can be a pain, but fortunately don't get much usage for my work.
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Old 01-26-2016, 12:07 AM   #13
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One more reason why I'll never buy anything from Waves.
Infuriating stuff, good I don't do anything serious with those plugs but I can imagine how stressful this shit must be for pros. Let's see how helpful their support is.
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Old 01-26-2016, 01:53 AM   #14
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I will probably get flamed for this but that is one of the main advantages with ilok in my opinion.
I know a lot of people hate the thing but, when you have to reinstall everything and authorize plugins, ilok is super simple.
Install the licensemanager, install the software, done.

I have all my waves and plugin alliance licenses authorized on a usb stick, prevents some troubles in case of crashes, and enable the use of the plugins on several machines.
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Old 01-26-2016, 02:29 PM   #15
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iLok might be better than challenge/response or some software based license managers, but it's still a license manager program that's been known to cause issues in itself, as well as the hardware, + you have to pay for a hardware thing. ($40-50 is not far away from the price of a world class DAW) And then I believe some plugins need a certain version of iLok to work and then you need another type of dongle and whatnot?

Not sure about iLok, but I have eLicenser and there it turned out I couldn't remove licenses so no way to sell a plugin without buying another dongle to transfer etc. Add to that the research and hassle of all that as well.

Like you, I put Plugin Alliance license on a USB stick, but I remember spending more than a day with hassles getting that activated, and they ended up having to do it manually.

In the end I doubt all those methods will ever be better than serial or license files which almost always works without hassle straight away. As for use on several machines, some licenses allow you to do that with serials or files as well.
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Old 01-26-2016, 09:26 PM   #16
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This is the reason I use almost entirely free plugins, none of this crap.

What plugins I do buy are usually the kind that have a license key installed right beside the .dll.

Or I have NFR versions that are essentially factory-cracked and just work every time.


Your post is exactly why I do not use Kontakt or anything like it. Cannot friggin deal with it.

Reaper can be moved around willy-nilly no problem, especially portable but even non-portable is still easy to move. If my plugins can't keep up with that, they're out.


And the free plugin world is so massive and HQ now, what with the progress and available resources in DSP frameworks, that there is really no point in buying features. You don't buy features anymore, you buy workflow and customer service. This is why developers like FabFilter and Tokyo Dawn Records thrive, while others struggle to market their products.

Think something like Pro Q 2 or SlickEQ only exists if you buy them from those companies? Not even close. But their refinements in workflow and their response to customers is what earns my money.

So IMO, **** DRM.
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Old 01-27-2016, 12:33 AM   #17
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Lost the access to my Waves licenses after replacing the wifi dongle. Reverted to using the old one (in hope the MAC address was all what's needed) but it didn't help. System restore - nope as well, still no Waves. Plugin DRM is indeed lovely.
Turns out it wasn't the wifi dongle, it was the old Avaya VPN client I didn't use in months (due to that VPN gateway being closed) and finally removed few days ago! Of all the things it could identify my computer by, Waves central choose the virtual VPN card that wasn't connected to anything and did nothing. Brilliant. And now I can't enable it back and will have to try to spoof the MAC somewhere.

Yeah, USB stick licensing thing starts to look tempting. Can you do backups of that stick?
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Old 01-27-2016, 06:03 AM   #18
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Can you do backups of that stick?
Officially: No. (that would mean you can duplicate licenses)
With the proper (shady) tooling: Yes, you can duplicate storage/HW UID's

btw, You can recover licenses with the Waves license manager. In case something happens like you had, you can recover them into your account.
You can do this once a year. It resets when the device/license is online again. The last opens creative possibilities
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Old 01-27-2016, 07:07 AM   #19
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Yeah, USB stick licensing thing starts to look tempting. Can you do backups of that stick?
You can backup the license files (Waves, Plugin Alliance) that are stored on the USB stick. In case the files on the USB stick are deleted by mistake, you can simply copy them back to the stick.

USB sticks contain a hidden identification number. The the license files will only work if returned to the USB stick they were copied from. Other USB sticks can hold the license files, but they will not authorize the plugins.
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Old 01-28-2016, 01:24 AM   #20
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Turns out it wasn't the wifi dongle, it was the old Avaya VPN client I didn't use in months (due to that VPN gateway being closed) and finally removed few days ago! Of all the things it could identify my computer by, Waves central choose the virtual VPN card that wasn't connected to anything and did nothing. Brilliant. And now I can't enable it back and will have to try to spoof the MAC somewhere.
Last update - dicking around with MACs didn't help, so I wasted my once-a-year license recovery option to retrieve the licenses. Support claims my problems were because activating the product trough a VPN connection - which is impossible because my VPN connection was used sparingly and never even had an internet access, it was for workplace network exclusively. So looks like Waves licenser just takes a random network device from your computer, used or not, and identifies your machine by that. Recipe for disaster, given virtual network cards in Windows are pretty common nowadays. Altough gotta give it to them - support's very responsive and eager to help.

Anyways, I have my licenses back, together with a sense of how tenuous my hold on them is.
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Old 01-28-2016, 12:29 PM   #21
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I'll say it again, in spite of my misgivings with Waves DRM (and lack of REAPER support!) their support team has always been quick, courteous, and genuinely helpful.
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Old 07-30-2016, 04:01 AM   #22
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Great bump opportunity:

Waves Central is completely dead now - installed the new version and still doesn't start. Wanted to move my licenses safely to the cloud before I replace the mainboard and CPU, but can't. So new CPU and mobo I bought after really lenghty waiting and thinking lie there on the table, distinctly noninstalled. Second time this year Waves puts a stick in my spokes, nice.

I think there's some certain, constant number of seemingly innocent and harmless DRMed apps installed on a single computer crossing of which makes system completely paralysed, un-touchable and un-changeable, due to fear of upsetting some important app you need. There should be a law name for that.
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Old 07-30-2016, 04:59 AM   #23
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Interesting. I have found Waves Central to be MUCH more reliable than the old iLko system was. Although my iLok stuff is also pretty reliable these days, too.

According to my wife I am officially one of the Luckiest People In The World(TM), which is probably why I dont seem to get much in the way of computer issues....
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Old 07-30-2016, 07:53 AM   #24
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Hate DRM schemes. They've played a major role in my buying decisions for several years now (don't like your DRM, I'm not buying). Best I've seen: the Renoise guys and Xfer Records. Others are catching on also. You pay, you get access to a member-only area where you download a version of the software that is "stamped" with your license info. You install it and run and never see or hear a whisper of DRM bullshit, it just works.
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Old 07-30-2016, 07:57 AM   #25
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Getting all the plugs working again -- WHAT A FREAKING NIGHTMARE. I have all my music software on a separate drive, so it was not touched by the C: drive problem. However, the @%^$@!! DRM software on C was gone along with all the registry entries, etc.

The non-protected VSTs were almost all fine, ready to go.

The protected ones ... every damn company has their own way of doing things, so I had to re-auth here, re-install there, re-register over there. It took me a whole long evening just getting most of my plugs working. Thank God I keep very good records of all my serials and auth codes.

I understand why companies do this, but it sure makes for a miserable user experience. One at a time is not too bad, but when you have to do them all at once...

Sigh.
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Old 07-30-2016, 11:19 AM   #26
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I've heard all the complaints and I avoided all the plugins that use certain DRM.. then I gave in (when Ultrachannel was made free) and I've never had any problems (that I can recall) with any of them.
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Old 07-30-2016, 11:58 AM   #27
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Call and whine and make em jump!

Treat it like you received the product DOA. They either find a way to pick up the pace and email you whatever codes or files are needed or they get to process a return and refund for a DOA. Period!

Drumagog writes some secret list of all the drives in your system to some hidden file. Any time you change a drive - could be a data drive with no OS/apps - their license file updates. It defaults back to demo mode and the last authorization code no longer works.

I call them up: "Yeah, it self destructed again. I changed a non-system drive. Should have been unrelated. I think you've got some license thingy going wild." Hold for a minute, then they email me a new code.

I'll say something like "OK. I'll keep this on file. (But I did that with the last one that stopped working.)" and I'll get a quick "mumble mumble thanks, bye".
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Old 07-30-2016, 12:14 PM   #28
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Drumagog writes some secret list of all the drives in your system to some hidden file. Any time you change a drive - could be a data drive with no OS/apps - their license file updates. It defaults back to demo mode and the last authorization code no longer works.
Nice. This is even better than Waves binding the license to a MAC of an unused virtual network card. Can't find any other reason for such practices than being deliberate asshole.
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Old 07-30-2016, 10:55 PM   #29
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Waves support responded quickly again and I got it working. You know what was the problem? GOG galaxy - application that was installed together with the latest Witcher game. Central won't start while its running o_O.

I'm not gonna buy another computer just to have plugins satisfied. This is a hobbyist operation goddamnit, I want my vidya games right here
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Old 03-25-2018, 11:34 AM   #30
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Ah, here it is, my official "dump waves problems" thread. Ran out of USB ports today so unplugged my trusty wifi dongle for a while to plug other stuff in. That'd be the signal for Waves to kill my licenses of course, even when the wifi dongle is installed back where it was.

Whatever, I basically only used L1 maximizer anyway, ditched GTR couple of licensers disasters back. Anyone knows the free L1 replacement, with the same easy operation, nice gain reduction gauge and the same louderizing abilities?
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Old 03-25-2018, 02:26 PM   #31
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This is the reason plugin licensing is a deal killer for me. I refuse to deal with it.

Your circumstances might be different, but I think being dependent on a company for anything simply because I bought a product from them is a fools game.

And, generally, companies I did depend on in the past have consistently vanished, dropped support, or refused to assist, or have been incompetent to be of any help. There are dozens of them, some plugoin makers, some interface makers, some other types, but Waves, Presonus, MAudio and a handful of others are on my "never buy from" list. One great way to get on the list is to cease driver support whenever a new Windows version comes out. Another way is to require dongles or a live internet connection to use the product.

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Old 03-25-2018, 03:08 PM   #32
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Anyone knows the free L1 replacement, with the same easy operation, nice gain reduction gauge and the same louderizing abilities?
http://sonic.supermaailma.net/plugins

"Unlimited".

It's not as simple as L1, but it's worthwhile learning how it works. And it's still easy enough since you'll probably mostly just use a couple controls (then fiddle with a couple to change how it reacts/sounds).

If you use Mac, the "5.1 Master Limiter" plugin is the previous version and it works really well too. It's available as a JS plugin in Reapack (his Reapack repository is https://github.com/Sonic-Anomaly/Son...ster/index.xml), or directly at this link.)

Check out his other plugins while you're there!

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This is the reason plugin licensing is a deal killer for me. I refuse to deal with it.

Your circumstances might be different, but I think being dependent on a company for anything simply because I bought a product from them is a fools game.

And, generally, companies I did depend on in the past have consistently vanished, dropped support, or refused to assist, or have been incompetent to be of any help.
+1
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Old 03-25-2018, 03:54 PM   #33
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Also had really good help from the Waves support team, last weekend. Heck the guy spent over an hour with me. 2 days ago, I bought an iZotope mastering plugin. Very good luck the installation.

But moving to Windows 10 ? I have steared clear of it.
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Old 03-25-2018, 04:56 PM   #34
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Quote:
2 days ago, I bought an iZotope mastering plugin. Very good luck the installation.
was that a good experience, or was it a bad experience..
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Old 03-25-2018, 11:58 PM   #35
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http://sonic.supermaailma.net/plugins

"Unlimited".

It's not as simple as L1, but it's worthwhile learning how it works. And it's still easy enough since you'll probably mostly just use a couple controls (then fiddle with a couple to change how it reacts/sounds).
It does look completely different indeed.

But tried Loudmax already - seems to be what I'm looking for, exact number of controls I want and mix still sounds surpringly good (for my standards) even with a ton of compression. Will leave Unlimited at the back of my head if I observe any problems with Loudmax.

Yes, Waves support is helpful, shame I have to actually use it. Waves is seriously least reliable software I used - and its disheartening its "reliability" problems are basically deliberate move on their part instead of just a crappy coding.
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Old 03-26-2018, 12:40 AM   #36
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It does look completely different indeed.

But tried Loudmax already - seems to be what I'm looking for, exact number of controls I want and mix still sounds surpringly good (for my standards) even with a ton of compression. Will leave Unlimited at the back of my head if I observe any problems with Loudmax.
If all you're trying to do is totally smash the mix and make it as loud as possible, Unlimited might not be the best. It's actually a very good limiter. It can be used as a "make-it-super-louderizer" but it's best appreciated for its ability to make the mix reasonably louder while not changing its sound too much.

For mix-smashing loudness, there are plugins included in Reaper that'll do the job (mostly JS plugins). Basically anything with clipping, loudness, or limiter in the name. Mix and match (use a little of one, a little of another, in series). I've only discovered some of these recently such as "2 compressors and a limiter in series".
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Old 03-26-2018, 01:13 AM   #37
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I'm not into a hardcore sausage compression, it's just the limiter I used early on did that crappy pumping effect when it things weren't even moderately loud, I'd rather avoid that . I'm okay with things being as loud as my not-extremely-loud reference tracks(I'm usually measuring everything to Nil Recurring EP by Porcupine Tree).
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Old 03-26-2018, 01:39 AM   #38
JamesPeters
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeekat View Post
I'm not into a hardcore sausage compression, it's just the limiter I used early on did that crappy pumping effect when it things weren't even moderately loud, I'd rather avoid that . I'm okay with things being as loud as my not-extremely-loud reference tracks(I'm usually measuring everything to Nil Recurring EP by Porcupine Tree).
You might really like Unlimited then. Don't let the extra few controls discourage you. It's a sensible enough plugin to use anyway.
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Old 03-26-2018, 02:46 AM   #39
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Toneboosters are cool. Simple license files, like Reaper. Easy to backup. Barricade rocks. Easy to demo too.
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Old 03-26-2018, 03:27 AM   #40
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The fabfilter limiter is also kickass, very easy to set levels including true peak.
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