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Old 04-09-2015, 05:29 AM   #1
mikeypee
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Default Your experience using Figure-8 for VOX/Acoustic isolation?

Hey guys,

I'm still struggling to determine if I should actually get a figure 8 ribbon, or make do with what I already have.

At the moment, I choose between an MXL 770 condenser and an SM57 for vocals. The MXL has a little more bleed (kind of in the high frequencies), but seems to have a somewhat good "null" zone off to the sides (weird, considering it's supposed to be carioid ... I don't get that). The SM57 obviously has better isolation, but it's just not as present and sharp as the MXL.

The guitar gets played fairly loudly, but the isolation isn't totally awful. I'm just wondering if any of you have gotten better results with a figure-8? Maybe some of you have VOX/Acoustic tracks I can listen to on pico song or something, that show how well the figure-8 helps isolate?

Also, my room *sucks*, so this is something to keep in mind regarding a figure 8's tendency to pick up the room more. (is it more than a condenser though?)

My price range is around $125... maybe $150 I think. Definitely cheap end stuff for me, unfortunately.

Also ... I really need to figure out how to tell if any particular figure 8 is immune from phantom power death. I've read some have built in protection, but I've also heard horror stories.

Any advice appreciated!
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Old 04-09-2015, 06:17 AM   #2
mdmiller
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If your room sucks, a figure 8 may not be the best choice since it picks up from the front and the rear. You'll get more bleed from the guitar. How about a mic that has switchable pickup patterns? I believe MXL makes some. This way you could experiment.

There's some companies that make isolation kits that attach to a mic stand. I don't remember their names though. One of these might help when using your MXL. I've never used them so you may want to check some reviews first.
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Old 04-09-2015, 06:23 AM   #3
Jae.Thomas
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I have used 2 figure 8 mics to attempt to "cancel" each other out on this guy's album of covers, which was recorded and mixed quickly (within 4 days, as a benefit for him was coming up).

https://soundcloud.com/barrybutler

I would say the results are partly because of having to work around the limitations of:

1. the performer not being comfortable doing separate tracks
2. time limits

but I think they were certainly passable. It was harder to work on, that's for sure
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Old 04-09-2015, 01:27 PM   #4
Fran Guidry
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I've done a demo using condensers rather than ribbons: http://www.homebrewedmusic.com/2009/...figure-8-mics/

My room is treated, so it may not apply to your situation, but when I've gotten everything lined up right the results have really impressed me.

Fran
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Old 04-09-2015, 03:58 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeypee View Post
Hey guys,

I'm still struggling to determine if I should actually get a figure 8 ribbon, or make do with what I already have.
I was in your exact possition a couple of years ago and i ended up biting the bullet and buying a pair of cascade flathead ribbon mics with the intention of recording vocals & acoustic guitar simultaneously and taking advantage of the
benifits figure 8 side rejection would achieve.

I'm sorry to report that i never did a single recording i was happy with using the ribbon mics, i don't know if the flatheads are particularly dark sounding or i need better mic pres for them but i always ended up with dull sounding tracks.

So i just went back to using condenser mics and focused on good performance and mic position, much better results, ( not as good isolation though )

I haven't even had the ribbons out of the case for over a year now, i should probably sell them and get a pair of multi pattern condensers but the price has been the obsticle there.



Cheers
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Old 04-09-2015, 04:10 PM   #6
jerome_oneil
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I did a duo in a really crappy room using a figure 8 pattern (AKG 420). There was an HVAC fan 90 degrees opposite of the two artists, who I had placed on either side.

It was a mono signal, but it worked wonders getting the equipment out of the space. There's a fiddle and a mountain dobro in this, if it helps.

https://soundcloud.com/jerome-oneil/...to-move-that-1
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Old 04-09-2015, 04:56 PM   #7
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Ribbon and Fig-8 aren't the same thing. Ribbon's just happen to be Fig-8. Just use a condenser that has selectable patterns then you have the best of both worlds. Ribbons are almost always "earthy" sounding in comparison, if you don't want that sound and prefer bright and chimey, don't get a ribbon.
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Old 04-09-2015, 05:09 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
Ribbon and Fig-8 aren't the same thing. Ribbon's just happen to be Fig-8. Just use a condenser that has selectable patterns then you have the best of both worlds. Ribbons are almost always "earthy" sounding in comparison, if you don't want that sound and prefer bright and chimey, don't get a ribbon.
I am a ribbon mic geek, I have more ribbons than any other type of mic (some cheap, some a bit pricey, all have uses though). But what Karbo said is spot on...they are darker by nature, or "earthy". I like that they have a natural high-end roll-off, acts sort of like a LPF, but often I will boost the 10k range 2-4 db's to add back a little sparkle. But with all of that said, if i know ahead of time that I need "crisp" or"chimey" from an acoustic, I will use one of my few but coveted condensers instead. I have to add though that 1 or 2 ribbons along with a dynamic and/or a fat condenser on a guitar cab is a great combo, almost never need to eq after finding a good balance with the mics.....Oops, different topic.
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Old 04-09-2015, 05:12 PM   #9
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I love my Royer 121s (outstanding on crunchy electric guitars) and you're right, gotta know when to use 'em and when not to use 'em.
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Old 04-09-2015, 06:05 PM   #10
mikeypee
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Thanks for your input, everyone!

I think I have a chronic brain block or something. I keep forgetting you can buy cardioid's that have figure-8/multi patterns. I think I got confused because the other day I was reading about ribbon's, and defaulted back to thinking only ribbon's have figure 8 patterns.

MdMiller - I'll look around for isolation kits.. that sounds cool.

Jason Brian Merrill - Those were nice to listen to though! Do you happen to have a copy of the bare vocals lying around, so I can listen to how much guitar bleed you had to deal with?

Fran Guidry - Haha oh my god dude... I'm one of your youtube fans, and we've talked back and forth via comments a few times. You rock! I'll message you on youtube so you know who this is. Great blog/video on the topic. I think you were able to get slightly less high frequency spill than I was able to accomplish.

Wolffman - Sorry to hear about your situation and thanks for the info. Maybe ribbons aren't always the best for vocals .. but might be fun for guitar sometimes? I dunno.

Jerome - Dang ... I really cannot hear the fan at all. Did you use ReaFir to reduce the noise too? PS, love the banjo wielding scarface!

Karbo - Yeah I'm finally remembering that, lol. I think I'll probably forget again in a couple months if I don't end up buying a multi pattern condenser by then.

Richie - I think I'm interested in a Ribbon still, but at this point much more off in the future, as it'd be a stylistic choice for me only, now that I understand/remember that condensers can do figure8 too. Some of the demo's I heard did sound pretty sweet.

I think a multi/figure8 condenser is what I'm going to shoot for next. Hopefully I won't have another brain lapse and post about this topic again until then, lol
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Old 04-09-2015, 06:25 PM   #11
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Ribbon mics pick up on both sides so maybe not the best for ignoring room.. however they can be amazing for minimizing other instruments. A common approach to recording a singer that is also playing an acoustic guitar is to use a ribbon or other figure 8 of some type and use the vocal one with its off-axis pointing at the guitar, and the guitar one pointed down toward the guitar as much as it sounds ok to do so. This makes for great isolation allowing you to freely pan the guitar or otherwise use the vocal separately from the guitar without worrying about artifacts caused by bleed.
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Old 04-09-2015, 07:10 PM   #12
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Deja vu lol...

Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
Fig-8 mics have a null point outside the polar pattern (basically a 360 degree circle that follows the rim of the diaphragm). So, by aiming one at the guitar and the other at the vocal, one can get each to basically null the other's source.

Of course it takes a fig-8 or two in one's possession but it's one additional good reason to add one to the future list of things to have.
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Old 04-09-2015, 07:10 PM   #13
mikeypee
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Yeah total
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Old 04-09-2015, 07:13 PM   #14
Jae.Thomas
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for my examples above I used a multipattern tube and a ribbon mic.
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Old 04-10-2015, 08:23 AM   #15
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Quote:
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Jerome - Dang ... I really cannot hear the fan at all. Did you use ReaFir to reduce the noise too?
Yes, a wee bit of ReaFir to lower the noise floor, a wee bit of Haas delay for stereo fakupery, some EQ to bring up the vocals over the instruments, and a touch of verb on the master.

That was recorded in a basement storage room of a hotel, so the walls were concrete, the room was pretty much square, and there was the fan. If you sat down to design the most acoustically shitty room you could, it would probably look something like that. I do a lot of field recordings (live impromptu acts) so I've gotten pretty good at reducing noise. ReaFir is indispensable in that regard. The other two tools are multi-pattern mics, and knowing how to use them in the space you're in.

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PS, love the banjo wielding scarface!
The animated GIF is the best.
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