Old 03-26-2017, 04:06 AM   #1
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Default Looking for mp3 vs wav blind tests

Anyone know of a good blind test I can give to friends who believe they can discern modern 320kbps .mp3s from uncompressed .wav?

I have some friends who are very anti-mp3 :P
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Old 03-26-2017, 04:30 AM   #2
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You could do what I did, and take some PCM or FLAC originals and render them both in PCM and MP3 in reaper at -3db on the master bus or so to avoid clipping from MP3 encoding and to keep them both at the same level so that he volume difference isn't the giveaway, and then send them both to your friend to compare using the foobar media player foobar ABX comparator to see if they can pick the difference.

So long as you have reaper setup to see your lame mp3 encoder you're good to go, well, so long as you have some PCM original files, or can rip them from CD.

If you get stuck or have any questions, feel free to ask. I can help you construct the most objective test possible given whatever limitations of your setup.

Ask your friend to pick some tracks where he feels the difference is obvious, and that you have PCM copies of. Do the MP3 conversion in reaper, and use the foobar ABX comparator to see if he can actually pick the difference between the original and the MP3 render.

The foobar ABX comparator is a great tool for introducing some realistic perspective to these issues.

I'll be amazed if you follow the methodology properly, if he can reliably pick 190Kbs MP3 from the original.

NOTE: Edited. Please read again from the top if you already read it.

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Old 03-26-2017, 05:04 AM   #3
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The thing is, he's on the other side of the earth, so I'd need to email him 2 files, and he's know by the extensions.

What if we encoded 2 files as you said, but then reconverted the mp3 back to .flac so that they were both .flac files, but one had been encoded as an .mp3 before returning to flac?


I'd also like to try to test at 192 (I know I can't do 320, but if 192 is possible but difficult... I'm curious how good my ears are.
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Old 03-26-2017, 05:37 AM   #4
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The thing is, he's on the other side of the earth, so I'd need to email him 2 files, and he's know by the extensions
That's why you use an ABX test app/plugin.
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Old 03-26-2017, 05:40 AM   #5
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this:
http://www.npr.org/sections/therecor...-audio-quality

For me the difference between mp3 320 and wav is noticeable, i even spotted some of the wavs listening thru a cell phone.
But i'm not anti-mp3, wav vs mp3 320 it's so subtle that can be negligible for enjoying music, even 192 is good for me. When it's lower it starts to bother me but i can live with it, for me 128 is the absolute minimum to have a listenable song
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Old 03-26-2017, 05:55 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by euga View Post
this:
http://www.npr.org/sections/therecor...-audio-quality

For me the difference between mp3 320 and wav is noticeable, i even spotted some of the wavs listening thru a cell phone.
But i'm not anti-mp3, wav vs mp3 320 it's so subtle that can be negligible for enjoying music, even 192 is good for me. When it's lower it starts to bother me but i can live with it, for me 128 is the absolute minimum to have a listenable song
Oh cool. So I could pick the 128kbps, but not between the wav and the 320 (about half the time I picked wav, and half the time 320)
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Old 03-26-2017, 06:10 AM   #7
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We know that there's a lot of work showing that sensible BR mp3s can't be reliably distinguished from uncompressed, and there's evidence for small but highly significant preferences for higher BR (e.g) 320kbps over 128kbps. I've heard that there are preferences for particular lossy codecs - even though they're not individually distinguishable from lossless. Which, if true, implies there's something not completely understood going on.


Incidentally, why is the OP so keen to burst his friends' bubble(s)? I can't reliably tell the difference (but I am ancient & decrepit), and I'm told most folks can't, but I don't feel the need to rub anyone's nose in it.
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Old 03-26-2017, 06:56 AM   #8
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Well, an older musician (bit of a snob IMO, but a good guy overall) made a comment about young musicians yada yada can't hear quality. When I called him out about the mp3 tech improving and not being bad anymore (though he's totally right on that his generation made better music), called me an idiot/deaf etc.

Anyhow, he seems to have deleted my remark. He can serve as a reminder to myself to always stay humble.
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Old 03-26-2017, 08:40 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Mr. PC View Post
Anyone know of a good blind test I can give to friends who believe they can discern modern 320kbps .mp3s from uncompressed .wav?

I have some friends who are very anti-mp3 :P
Do it with 192kbps. I bet you they can't even tell that from wav. I can't and have done many tests.

Take the 192 or 320 converted files and convert them back to wav so your friends have two wav files to compare that have a numbered key to tell you which is which. To include yourself, have your wife/mom rename the files and key.
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Old 03-26-2017, 09:15 AM   #10
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Well, an older musician (bit of a snob IMO, but a good guy overall)
If it's an "older musician", just send him a 15khz tone. I bet he can't hear that for starters. :-)
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Old 03-26-2017, 09:17 AM   #11
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If it's an "older musician", just send him a 15khz tone. I bet he can't hear that for starters. :-)
I'm 57 and I'm constantly turning DOWN highs, so many bad mixes out there.
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Old 03-26-2017, 10:05 AM   #12
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I'm 57 and I'm constantly turning DOWN highs, so many bad mixes out there.
I'm 55 and I can't hear anything over ~12.5k in my right ear and my left is worse. Of course, that means there's still scope for annoying XS "brilliance", but "air" is something that happens to other people.
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Old 03-26-2017, 10:08 AM   #13
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There is this new ABX feature of JRiver Media Center:

https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/ind...,107924.0.html

For those not familiar it is a no compromise media player with a lot of high end features. They don't subscribe to the "audio magic" crowd of crystals to tape to your cables and $500 power cords etc.
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Old 03-26-2017, 10:32 AM   #14
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I'm 55 and I can't hear anything over ~12.5k in my right ear and my left is worse. Of course, that means there's still scope for annoying XS "brilliance", but "air" is something that happens to other people.

I'm hyper cautious too. I wear earplugs when mowing the lawn or running any power tools and I bring earplugs to all concerts.
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Old 03-26-2017, 01:13 PM   #15
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I'm hyper cautious too. I wear earplugs when mowing the lawn or running any power tools and I bring earplugs to all concerts.
Very wise. Course, some of it's just down to miles on the clock. How do your ears test?
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Old 03-26-2017, 01:47 PM   #16
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Very wise. Course, some of it's just down to miles on the clock. How do your ears test?
They test great. I think it's all the great Les Paul / Marshall amp sounds that keep my ears happy.

I've been adjusting them all day with my latest fav band:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1avXmWKnjsE
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Old 03-27-2017, 09:26 AM   #17
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I can hear up to 15.5 (and it doesn't sound good up there).

In my opinion, those frequencies actually aren't useful unless it's for shakers etc.. and a lot of stuff sounds better low-passed (I realized this after obsessing about condenser mics and wanting to capture that range. I was totally wrong).


I would like to preserve my hearing the best I can... sometimes I wonder if I should just sleep with ear-plugs or something, to give my ears an extra rest (though the only noise I really get is music from my earphones. I compose / mix / listen on over-ear headphones a few hours per day).
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Old 03-27-2017, 09:38 AM   #18
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I can hear up to 15.5 (and it doesn't sound good up there).

In my opinion, those frequencies actually aren't useful unless it's for shakers etc.. and a lot of stuff sounds better low-passed (I realized this after obsessing about condenser mics and wanting to capture that range. I was totally wrong).


I would like to preserve my hearing the best I can... sometimes I wonder if I should just sleep with ear-plugs or something, to give my ears an extra rest (though the only noise I really get is music from my earphones. I compose / mix / listen on over-ear headphones a few hours per day).
sleeping with earplugs won't help unless it is loud when you are sleeping. i hope not. Always being conscious of your surroundings is important. keep earplugs with you and if you are in a loud part of town, drop em in. wear them for all power tools of course, hell, anything that is not music. Mute it !
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Old 03-27-2017, 11:36 AM   #19
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sleeping with earplugs won't help unless it is loud when you are sleeping. i hope not. Always being conscious of your surroundings is important. keep earplugs with you and if you are in a loud part of town, drop em in. wear them for all power tools of course, hell, anything that is not music. Mute it !
But do low levels of sound harm your hearing over time?

For example, someone watching TV in the next room, or vacuuming. Will these affect my hearing? If so, I'll gladly buy earplugs.

Also, the comment about jriver media player. I never realized there was any difference between players. I use VLC, but also, I keep all volumes at 100% and only control volume using my DAC's analogue volume amping. Does that mean it doesn't matter which player I use? Or will I still get better quality with jriver?

https://www.jriver.com/audiophile.html
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Old 03-27-2017, 11:45 AM   #20
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But do low levels of sound harm your hearing over time?
It's all about how loud and how long... You can search around for OSHA documents. Here is a quick search of some...

Quote:
Hearing Damage Risk Levels in Decibels:

•85 dB: Beginning of OSHA regulations
•90 dB: Risk of Hearing Damage After 8 Hours of Sound Exposure ◦Lawn Mower
◦Truck Traffic

•95 dB: Risk of Hearing Damager After 4 Hours of Sound Exposure ◦Motorcycle
◦Power Saw

•100 dB: Risk of Hearing Damage After 2 Hours of Sound Exposure ◦Chainsaw
◦Stereo Headphones

•105 dB: Risk of Hearing Damage After 1 Hour of Sound Exposure ◦Jackhammer
◦Helicopter

•110 dB: Risk of Hearing Damage After 30 Minutes of Sound Exposure ◦Snowmobile from Driver Seat

•115 dB: Risk of Hearing Damage After 15 Minutes of Sound Exposure ◦Baby's Cry
◦Stadium Football Game

•120 dB: Risk of Hearing Damage After 7.5 Minutes of Sound Exposure ◦Rock Concert
◦Sandblasting

•140 dB: Immediate Hearing Damage ◦Gunshot
◦Jet Engine Taking Off

So, there is nothing wrong with protecting your ears but knowledge is power, meaning, I can mow my yard for >7 hours straight before that mower can hurt my hearing. Beyond that, simply existing and aging is going to naturally roll off hearing over time, nothing you can do about it and 20-20k basically applies to newborns.
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Old 03-27-2017, 12:43 PM   #21
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I am "lucky" enough to have started with a bit of an extended range. I never really tested my limits, but every once in a while somebody would bring a dog whistle to school and think it was funny and it completely was not fun or funny for me.

I sure am glad my environment isn't full of CRTs anymore!

So I've got some to spare which is good because earplugs freak me out. I got a good pair that is nice and flat across a decent range, but I can't stand the disconnect between body buzz and volume and I think I miss the natural compression and filters that my ears and brain apply. It doesn't sound right and it doesn't feel right.
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Old 03-27-2017, 12:49 PM   #22
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I sure am glad my environment isn't full of CRTs anymore!
~15kHz if memory serves. Nevertheless, when I was younger I had the same problem, CRTs drove me crazy and would even give me motion sickness if I went to sleep with the TV on at night. Same thing with some alarm systems in public places back then, mom and dad would look at me funny when I complained about the high pitched whine I heard that they nor my brother or sister heard when we visited the local mall.

Not a problem now, I'm 53 and I can't really tell any more. All the marshal stacks and years of live mixing probably diminished much of that. I can still hear pretty well considering what I've put them through over the decades.

Quote:
natural compression and filters that my ears and brain apply. It doesn't sound right and it doesn't feel right.
Hmm... I got some reasonably flat plugs a couple of weeks ago and didn't like them. I wonder if it is a similar effect because what I didn't like was my rig sounded much cleaner than it did without the plugs.
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Old 03-27-2017, 01:27 PM   #23
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But do low levels of sound harm your hearing over time?

For example, someone watching TV in the next room, or vacuuming. Will these affect my hearing? If so, I'll gladly buy earplugs.

Also, the comment about jriver media player. I never realized there was any difference between players. I use VLC, but also, I keep all volumes at 100% and only control volume using my DAC's analogue volume amping. Does that mean it doesn't matter which player I use? Or will I still get better quality with jriver?

https://www.jriver.com/audiophile.html

Any constant noise is bad for the ears. I would not worry about noise like a TV unless you are constantly exposed to it. I prefer to consider the total amount of noise I get in a day and to minimize where I can to have a lower daily total.
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Old 03-27-2017, 01:52 PM   #24
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Hmm... I got some reasonably flat plugs a couple of weeks ago and didn't like them. I wonder if it is a similar effect because what I didn't like was my rig sounded much cleaner than it did without the plugs.
Yeah probably. It really just shows you that you don't actually sound as good as you think you do.

It's kind of funny, though, because if I record what I did and then play it back at lower volume, it doesn't sound as much worse as it did when I had the plugs in.

I'm only 41, but I spend a lot of time in small basements with people whose idea of great tone is to turn it up as loud as it gets and hit it as hard as you can. I know it's causing damage, but as long as my Yamaha monitors still sound a little harsh, I feel like I'm doing ok.
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Old 03-27-2017, 02:14 PM   #25
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Yeah probably. It really just shows you that you don't actually sound as good as you think you do.
Can't be that. It was really more, possibly from being a TS circuit (that allows some clean through) to get through the plugs more than the distortion which bugged me because if I wanted that, I'd not engage the pedal to begin with which made me take the plugs out because I couldn't hear what was actually happening minus the plugs. If it wasn't for that, I'd have loved them. I'd also wish I could find some plugs that knock off maybe 10 dB instead of say 30 dB. I just want it reduced some, not extreme.
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Old 03-27-2017, 06:50 PM   #26
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Does that mean it doesn't matter which player I use? Or will I still get better quality with jriver?

https://www.jriver.com/audiophile.html
In some circles that kind of question could lead to many users having varying opinions that they will defend religiously. I don't want to have that happen here, so I'll just generalize to some extent and not claim one is "better than the other".

The devil is in the details really. There are certain players that try to be bit perfect and not alter the signal in any way. That is much easier said than done and some players are better than others. I don't think it matters that much myself, as "sounds better" is subjective. Video is a different matter and it is quite obvious between some players. However, if you are a purist, you could do some research and find out which players stand up better than others.

Then there is the feature set. That is more factual than opinion really so I can elaborate there a bit more. JRiver has things like built in support for convolution, VSTs, DSD, etc. One of their employees is the author of LAV filters, the author of MadVR is a regular on the forums and even Bob Katz make appearances and has put the player through its paces. I'll leave it at that.

It is has media library features, an HTPC interface, streaming support, apps for various smartphone os's, etc so it is a lot more than just a player.

It has a lot in common with Reaper actually. You should see the threads on people that "don't like the interface" vs the fact that it is a Swiss army knife and can do almost anything...
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Old 03-28-2017, 05:01 AM   #27
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I'm 57 and I'm constantly turning DOWN highs, so many bad mixes out there.
+1

There's way more highs and a lot of those are distorted. You can even see it if you care to look at an RTA, fi.

In the old days, these got lost in the system. And everybody was wary about distortion, so nine out of ten instruments were real and clean. The last festival we did, the largest band had four musicians. All the others were solo or duo, but played a gazillion gizmo's.
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Old 03-28-2017, 07:46 AM   #28
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I'm 57 and I'm constantly turning DOWN highs, so many bad mixes out there.
Seriously!

I'll turn the volume down and maybe still listen to the too loud ones but the blinding high end stuff gets turned off nowadays! Money doesn't get spent unless I see a 24 bit master for sale. A surround sound mix really helps seal the deal too.

The "portable device" mastering style is pretty over the top with the slammed brick wall limited and high end eq hype!

Things are improving. Not the "portable device" mastering mentioned but for those who chose to also release their master mixes in HD without the brutal hyping. (The "without the brutal hyping" part being the important part.)

It goes without saying that if you are 'blind testing' between mp3 and lossless formats with any of these brutally slammed masters you will hear absolutely no difference. It would be like trying to compare a 4k screen to a 5k screen using a Youtube video that has been uploaded/downloaded/uploaded a number of times.

You'll want to use classical music or art music that has been mastered with care. Get the 24 bit HD edition (either download or bluray disc) and make the mp3 from that yourself. The official release version of the CD & mp3 will almost certainly have the portable device style hyping done to at least some level and this will overshadow anything in the format critique.

Highly dynamic music on a full fidelity system can show off limitations of mp3 or CD. Already damaged music (ie. historical recordings that already have some layers of generation loss) will snowball further with lossy and low res formats.

If anyone thinks they are hearing gross differences between mp3 and anything else for hyped chirpy masters, I suspect you're really hearing volume differences in playback.

The formats: 24 bit HD master, 24 bit SD, 16 bit CD, mp3
It's almost more of a calling card with the shitty sounding releases out there. You COULD put a lot better sound into a lowly 16 bit CD but nobody does. So you expect a more refined listening experience with the 24 bit HD master and you expect volume war when you just buy the CD.

Someone made a post a while back exposing some of these online "mastering" services a while back that are doing absurd over the top slammed bright mastering. They all sounded ridiculous. For that kind of thing the damage has already been done are it goes FAR beyond anything even mp3 squashing will do!

I guess when you want to be able to understand the lyrics clearly, from an iThing, with cheap earbuds, and said iThing with earbuds plugged in and sitting in the next room away from you... then buy the CD or mp3 for the portable device mastering. And forget about any blind tests!

Deaf tests?


Don't get me wrong. I'm one of the card carrying audiophile snobs when I can be! That we have a consumer format now (24/96) that contains absolutely ANY audio program with zero loss (and no matter it is and what might have happened to it before) is awesome. But for the crude releases, there's more to talk about regarding the production than the formats.

Classic example:
That vinyl pressing you're hearing that is a better representation of the master tape than the CD. It's because someone did a shitty job mastering the CD. Not because vinyl is THAT much better a format.

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Old 04-11-2017, 06:18 AM   #29
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So I installed JRiver.

It's quite annoying. Wants to import libraries... bugging me with ads and trials... Is this normal?

It seems to sound better, but maybe just a placebo.
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