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Old 01-13-2015, 11:52 AM   #81
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Ha, ha! Good one!


For my part, I have worn out two wives over the years -- and much of it the hours and recording and studio-related. Not that they had no idea what they were getting into, but I have felt sorry for them at times. Oh, well. Not going to ruin my life too by switching over to some boring-as-hell straight job!
Well to be honest, I ended up with a regular job so that helps!

You still in Carolina Beach? I used to gig there in the 90s until hurricane (Fran I think it was) destroyed where we gigged.
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Old 01-13-2015, 12:09 PM   #82
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To be totally honest, I worked in a good bit of music journalism for a while and PR. That went well with gigs and so on.

Yes, back at the Beach for the winter. But the weather has been so stink here lately that I'd rather go back to my other fave beach -- Cocoa Beach. Warmer, more laid back there and closer to bigger culture ... only about an hour from Orlando.

You do any beach band or shag stuff back then when here? Still goes on but economy has been hard on so many here. Fair amount of broke metal players around these days. I do at least 10% free studio work for these starving bands here ... was a great way to learn Reaper when I quit Cubase ... and no one cares what DAW you use when you provide free services!
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Old 01-13-2015, 12:13 PM   #83
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Yes, back at the Beach for the winter. But the weather has been so stink here lately that I'd rather go back to my other fave beach -- Cocoa Beach. Warmer, more laid back there and closer to bigger culture ... only about an hour from Orlando.
Been to Cocoa beach once or twice, have a friend who lives there, stark comparison to here for sure.

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You do any beach band or shag stuff back then when here?
No, it was a basic circuit cover band though at the time we covered a lot of ground.. anything from funk to disco to nine inch nails. I can't remember where we played there though it has been so long, we also played Wilmington, Wrightsville beach (Wallys?), Atlantic beach and so on. Good times except for the no money part.
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Old 01-13-2015, 12:18 PM   #84
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Asheville the hot spot in NC now. Even Chapel Hill has gone a touch sleepy of late. NIN in that mix. I like that.
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Old 01-13-2015, 12:24 PM   #85
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hotchick,

So it must have been reaper's sample accuracy issues that hindered your Abba clip.
How the hell did Abba get mixed in with all this?
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Old 01-13-2015, 12:29 PM   #86
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Thanks for bringing this back on topic.
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Old 01-13-2015, 01:04 PM   #87
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For your convenience, I've added bold and a blue color:
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Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by HotChick View Post
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When some start complaining "Reaper should just handle it" without quite understanding (or possibly not appearing to understand) information that reaper doesn't have in order to handle it....
Interesting, as I just searched this entire thread for that quote, and the only one who said it is you.

Interesting that you would hear, in your mind, someone saying those words, when no one has said them outside your mind, in fact.
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You can say having to "put gas in" the car is stupid. "It should just be automatic!" (Pretend you're some filthy rich sheltered type.)

Aligning the digital audio streams to and from interfaces is just as SOP and obvious to a DAW user.... just like with professional photography, when you need to get your hands on the nuts and bolts it's a wonderful thing.)
(Possibly it's the ASIO standard which is at fault here....)... There's no good reason alignment isn't automatic
What's interesting more than DAW technology, is your psychological condition where:

1. serr makes excuses for a design flaw, apparently on the part of the ASIO designers. Serr suggests that wanting improvements to ASIO is associated with be being sheltered, spoiled, presumably lazy, and even unskilled photographically.

2. I rebut his nonsense, still without accusing Reaper of any wrongdoing.

3. You get ants in your pants and compulsively defend Reaper, against some accusation that was all in your head.

Can't suggest an innovation on this or any other forum without upsetting the fanboys. Innovation is heresy, for the very idea implies that the fanboys' girlfriend (computer program, or in this case, ASIO standard) has room for improvement.
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Old 01-13-2015, 01:35 PM   #88
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What's interesting more than DAW technology, is your psychological condition where:
We are more interested in your technical and non-psychological analysis of how Reaper can/should do this alignment automatically and how you propose that should be done.

Nice try though, I'll give you that.
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Old 01-13-2015, 01:41 PM   #89
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We are more interested in the voices in my head's technical and non-psychological analysis of how Reaper can /should do this automatically and how the voices in my head propose that should be done.
FTFY, because you continue attributing to me statements which I've never made.

I type "ASIO", but you persistently read it as "Reaper".
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Old 01-13-2015, 01:45 PM   #90
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serr makes excuses for a design flaw...
Please don't mis-quote me like that! Make your own arguments to support your ideas without twisting around my words please!

I don't even use ASIO (or have any microsoft software of any kind at present actually*).

I think my analogies were fine.
A novice picture taker would get very bad results with a manual camera with no training but would get what they were after with a 'point & click' model. But for them to call the manual camera broken or that is has a bug would not be accurate.

I really don't think there's any disrespect from pointing out someone needs training when they aren't aware of how something really works. The point is not belittling the novice. It's to illustrate that a normal intelligent person without specific training or instruction will not just intuitively jump into something complex.

The car analogy is meant to illustrate that someone with a different background can indeed be aloof to things that are considered general knowledge in other circles.

Finally, I did give an exact specific example of digital equipment patched together in such a way that the system itself cannot "see" the latency from connections upstream and needs to be "told". There are many devices we use for audio that need to be configured correctly and don't have modern "smart ports" or some such to enable you to automate everything. It's not a design flaw.


*Oops, spoke too soon. I see I installed this Microsoft.NET thingy that was apparently needed for this Windows only AudioMuxer app I decided I needed to check out. But I run it in OSX. And I digress...

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Old 01-13-2015, 01:46 PM   #91
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FTFY, because you continue attributing to me statements which I've never made.
So you are avoiding actually answering anything about your suggestion at all costs because you simply do not know; that's cool. We should probably have this moved to the lounge where it is now better suited because this isn't really the place for all the psyco remarks.

But yes, some of the issues are because the DAW, any native DAW as I noted further up can't actually determine, hence manual, if they can't and someone makes that distinction, which I might add is a very important one when someone is blaming it on the DAW (again any native DAW), it isn't a fanboy remark, it's a technical one. Simple as that.
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Old 01-13-2015, 02:01 PM   #92
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C'mon, you're confusing us dumb ones with this rhetoric stuff. Specs, please or ...


And WHO is hearing voices in their head?
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Old 01-13-2015, 02:14 PM   #93
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C'mon, you're confusing us dumb ones with this rhetoric stuff. Specs, please or ...


And WHO is hearing voices in their head?
Ltl ole me?

#1 - the SC driver reports to the "DAW" the latency and the DAW subsequently accounts for it. In my experience what is reported isn't always correct and a loopback test is the way to know the true latency and to correct for it if needed. My personal exposure to it began with Logic around '98 or '99. The manual test is typically one time only and is sample accurate assuming nothing else changes. Been that way as long as I can remember and always worth performing the test just to be sure.

#2 - Any two disparate devices, lets' assume they are word clock linked and using ADAT for example. There is no way that I know of for Reaper (aka a native DAW) to know where the real starting points for both streams are (if it can, school me, great, I'm all for it). Thusly, the streams are tightly locked but the alignment may be off a few samples and stay off by exactly that amount. In other words they are locked but not aligned before the DAW even sees them AFAIK.

If the DAW (again any native one for pedantic reasons) can know that, they should fix that but from my experience they can't hence the manual adjustment that is required to the post recorded items if both devices are passing recording streams into Reaper (oops the DAW) simultaneously.

I hear plenty of voices in my head, that's where all my good ideas come from but not hearing the ones I'm being blamed for other than all the personal jabs making it difficult to reply accurately at times. That's why the technical part is more fruitful than the psyco stuff.
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Old 01-13-2015, 02:58 PM   #94
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karbomusic: 'In my experience what is reported isn't always correct ...'

That was always my understanding as well.
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Old 01-13-2015, 03:05 PM   #95
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What Serr said is true, as relates to "novice".

When people use words like that the first impression of some is to see elitism or something when the reality is that digital stuff is very complex and it takes time to really fully grasp all of it. These products are really affordable and everybody has them now so it's common to see people owning $400 audio workstations who don't even know what a bus is yet, let alone yet understand the many different cases or places where latency shows up as being potentially problematic.

It was the same for all of us. Those of us who grew up on analog never worried about latency because analog has no perceptible latency. When we went digital we had to learn about all that like everybody else.

It's not a knock, it just is what it is. For a person to just plug in any random ASIO device and have everything line up perfectly to the sample in every case with no intervention would be an amazing feat of engineering. That they do get as close as they do before we adjust it a little is in itself damn good engineering.

They (software vendors) put the adjustment in there because they already know it's not perfect. As a novice, you might only stumble on those settings and the reasoning behind them if you actually read the manual. But nobody does that.

That's why I chuckled when that question "How are they supposed to know that?" came up. Erhm... by reading the manual and also using basic common sense.

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Old 01-13-2015, 03:23 PM   #96
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...if you actually read the manual. But nobody does that.
And, more commonly these days, suggesting people actually read and learn how their tools work is also met with cries of elitism
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Old 01-13-2015, 03:28 PM   #97
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Interfaces should be designed to report the latency they introduce, and then DAW's should be designed to use this information to automate latency compensation in more cases. Anything to contrary just sounds like old guys preaching, "When I was a kid we used slide rules instead of calculators, and we walked through 4 feet of snow 8 miles to school, so you should too."
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Old 01-13-2015, 03:38 PM   #98
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Where you go wrong is the assumption that doing that, reporting and adjusting automatically, always result in timing accuracy down to many tens of thousands of a second sample accuracy, in a hardware box that cost $200 and a software app not much more expensive than that.

It's supposed to be dead perfect because.... why exactly?

It's off a tiny bit. So what? Adjust it and move on to more important things.

Maybe worry about stuff you can't so easily correct, not so much stuff you can. Or not.

Humans can't even detect intervals less than x milliseconds. Translate that value (look it up) to samples and tell me how many samples you need at 88.1k to reach a point where humans can even hear that interval.
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Old 01-13-2015, 03:39 PM   #99
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Interfaces should be designed to report the latency they introduce, and then DAW's should be designed to use this information to automate latency compensation in more cases. Anything to contrary just sounds like old guys preaching, "When I was a kid we used slide rules instead of calculators, and we walked through 4 feet of snow 8 miles to school, so you should too."
I don't think anyone would disagree with you. Anything that gets in the way of the music should be addressed and solved.

However, "should" doesn't help anyone right now. People still have to learn how to use the tools they have.
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Old 01-13-2015, 03:46 PM   #100
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Interfaces should be designed to report the latency they introduce, and then DAW's should be designed to use this information to automate latency compensation in more cases.
Absolutely!

The part you're not acknowledging is that interfaces are designed to plug digital signals into. Digital audio streams that have no sync (as in start point of audio stream) information. Sample rate clock yes, but no sync. We build studio "systems" using such gear. The DAW gives us manual overrides to line that stuff up. It's really as simple as that.

If we're talking about just plugging a single audio interface into a computer then I agree with you 100% and the discrepancy raises my eyebrows as well.

I'll risk another analogy with you. You're asking for the driverless car. People are working on it but it's not a common thing yet.

Seen that TNG episode where Picard just tells the computer what tracks to record/play with his flute thing? We're not quite there yet.

Old guy preaching up the past? Hell no! I find this new technology very liberating. In the past, just making the machines behave was an art form sometimes. Now the creativity can be directly channeled into the music with no distractions.
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Old 01-13-2015, 03:47 PM   #101
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I've never recorded a singer and on playback they said...

"Hey! That sounds 175 samples late! Your daw is broken!"

Maybe if I record Superman one day that might happen.

But i still align my system because I want it to be as close to analog as reasonably possible, the playback against the cue signals.
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Old 01-13-2015, 04:08 PM   #102
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and the discrepancy raises my eyebrows as well.
Slightly OT but just to be clear and helpful as possible, it's one of those things we verify, set and forget as needed. To be more clear, it isn't one of those things where I'd sit around snobbing that I hear something special when it is off by 70 samples or so. However, I do have enough of my own timing problems playing, I need all the alignment help I can get.

Seriously though, in cases such as this, as in something we can very easily control, I simply do that and I never need to even consider the hearing part. IE: I just calibrate what needs to be calibrated and don't have to get into all the GS type minutia. Not directed at this thread just the general benefit of doing so.
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Old 01-13-2015, 04:09 PM   #103
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@Lawrence, just saw your post LOL, I swear I had not seen it when typing mine.
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Old 01-13-2015, 04:15 PM   #104
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"should" doesn't help anyone right now.
You don't think it helps developers decide what to improve?

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It's off a tiny bit. So what? Adjust it....
I wouldn't know how to provide such poor service to my customers as telling them, "So what? Adjust it." It's easy to advocate poor customer-service when it's not your company on the line; actual developers who tried "so-what'ing" their customers wouldn't be able to compete with developers who "I'll-try-to-save-you-time" their customers. My customers don't have as much time to waste as you seem to have.
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Old 01-13-2015, 04:20 PM   #105
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I've never recorded a singer and on playback they said...

"Hey! That sounds 175 samples late! Your daw is broken!"

Maybe if I record Superman one day that might happen.

But i still align my system because I want it to be as close to analog as reasonably possible, the playback against the cue signals.
I _would_ agree if I hadn't recorded a pretty fast muted guitar pattern in a pretty fast tune once. It was SO off, oh lord :/

Besides that: are you NEVER re-amping or the like? Then blend the re-amped sound with the original?
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Old 01-13-2015, 04:21 PM   #106
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You don't think it helps developers decide what to improve?


I wouldn't know how to provide such poor service to my customers as telling them, "So what? Adjust it." It's easy to advocate poor customer-service when it's not your company on the line; actual developers who tried "so-what'ing" their customers wouldn't be able to compete with developers who "I'll-try-to-save-you-time" their customers. My customers don't have as much time to waste as you seem to have.
If you draft an open letter to send to the major interface manufacturers and DAW developers, I'd be happy to sign it!
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Old 01-13-2015, 04:25 PM   #107
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I wouldn't know how to provide such poor service to my customers as telling them, "So what? Adjust it." It's easy to advocate poor customer-service when it's not your company on the line; actual developers who tried "so-what'ing" their customers wouldn't be able to compete with developers who "I'll-try-to-save-you-time" their customers. My customers don't have as much time to waste as you seem to have.
Huh? You can't be that dense.

I meant adjust the record alignment in the software - for your system - so it doesn't do that anymore, so you can move on to the next minutia jihad. Takes all of 5 minutes.

The developers give you facilities inside their software to correct that for any hardware, what else should they do, take all of the device mfg's to Guantanamo Bay and water board them so they all get it right? "If your device reporting is off by one sample we will hang you."

Aside from that, ASIO can't "report" and correct for the latency of an external converters latency anyway? Not everyone is using a USB audio card. People install their hardware, take measurements of the offset, line everything up, make the correction, and never think about it again.

This is way beyond silly now. Just align your system so the timing is right and let it go. Gosh. Do you expect a software developer to come and do that for you?

If your "customers" knew that you - the audio engineer? - didn't even know how to correctly align your own studio system they might not be your customers.

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Old 01-13-2015, 04:29 PM   #108
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Huh? I meant adjust the record alignment in the software - in your system - so it doesn't do that anymore, so you can move on to the next jihad. Takes all of 5 minutes.

The developers give you facilities in their software to correct that for any hardware, what else should they do, take all of the device mfg's to Guantanamo and water board them so they all get it right?

Aside from that, ASIO can't "report" and correct for the latency of external converters latency anyway?

This is beyond silly now.
I presumed the chick of hotness was suggesting an entirely new audio protocol.
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Old 01-13-2015, 04:34 PM   #109
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Life is too short for this.

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Old 01-13-2015, 04:47 PM   #110
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Takes all of 5 minutes.
You're projecting the cheapness of your own time onto other people. I wouldn't know how to tell my customers that they shouldn't mind wasting 5 minutes of their time.

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Just align your system so the timing is right and let it go. Gosh. Do you expect a software developer to come and do that for you?
I expect developers who tell their customers "just-spend-another-five-minutes-and-let-it-go" to lose out to developers who tell their customers "I-just-developed-a-way-to-save-you-five-minutes-of-time".

I get it: Your time is cheap. Five minutes of your time is worth $0. What you don't seem to understand is that other people's time is worth more.

I sweated over every second of my customers' time, and as a result I was able to retire in my 20's; but you keep telling me I'm looking at things wrong. Who are you to tell people not to worry about 5 minutes? Just some jerkoff whose time is worthless.
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Old 01-13-2015, 04:57 PM   #111
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You are truly special.

It took me - days - to fully setup my studio, this last one, weeks for the brick and mortar one before that, so the 5 minutes it took to align my daw's audio placement was like... well... five minutes. I did all of that - before - I opened for business, not after.

But carry on. I hope you get what you're after, whatever that is.

Go HotChick! You Rock Girl! Assuming you are female.

Best of luck to you on your sample accuracy jihad. Send Cockos an angry email. i'm sure they'll get right on that.

Ivan, you're right. We've been successfully trolled.

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Old 01-13-2015, 05:06 PM   #112
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You are truly special.

It took me - days - to fully setup my studio, this last one, weeks for the brick and mortar one before that, so the 5 minutes it took to align my daw's audio placement was like... well... five minutes. I did all of that - before - I opened for business, not after.

But carry on. I hope you get what you're after, whatever that is.

Go HotChick! You Rock Girl! Assuming you are female.

Best of luck to you on your sample accuracy jihad. Send Cockos an angry email. i'm sure they'll get right on that.
If you had an ounce of the business acumen HotChick does, you'd know that bitching on forums and needlessly insulting people with more knowledge than you is how things get done these days
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Old 01-13-2015, 05:12 PM   #113
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You are truly special.

It took me - days - to fully setup my studio, this last one, weeks for the brick and mortar one before that, so the 5 minutes it took to align my daw's audio placement was like... well... five minutes. I did all of that - before - I opened for business, not after.

But carry on. I hope you get what you're after, whatever that is.

Go HotChick! You Rock Girl! Assuming you are female.

Best of luck to you on your sample accuracy jihad. Send Cockos an angry email. i'm sure they'll get right on that.

Ivan, you're right. We've been successfully trolled.
It would take a special kind of idiocy to imagine that I'm expressing anger towards Cockos.

You haven't been trolled, you've just taken to stupidly telling strangers that 5 minutes of their time doesn't matter, and you don't like the response. Go on telling the internet how cheap 5 minutes of your own time is, but you are only foolish telling strangers their time is worth as little as yours.
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Old 01-13-2015, 05:27 PM   #114
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It would take a special kind of idiocy to imagine that I'm expressing anger towards Cockos.

You haven't been trolled, you've just taken to stupidly telling strangers that 5 minutes of their time doesn't matter, and you don't like the response. Go on telling the internet how cheap 5 minutes of your own time is, but you are only foolish telling strangers their time is worth as little as yours.
How much is your hourly rate for being nasty on forums?

You're screwing yourself out of a fortune if you're doing it for free

Why not be productive and actually do something about creating a new digital audio protocol and getting developers and manufacturers to adopt it?
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Old 01-13-2015, 05:40 PM   #115
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being nasty on forums?
Interesting, as it was the "Shut up about your 5 minutes and go make some music" gang who initiated the nastiness.
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Old 01-13-2015, 05:46 PM   #116
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Interesting, as it was the "Shut up about your 5 minutes and go make some music" gang who initiated the nastiness.
I don't think I've been reading the same thread.

Anyway, if you come up with anything productive to do about it I'll lend my support, for what it's worth. Even though I'm on Mac and don't have to deal with ASIO, anything that helps get the technology out of the way of the music is a good cause in my book
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Old 01-13-2015, 06:35 PM   #117
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Slightly OT but just to be clear and helpful as possible, it's one of those things we verify, set and forget as needed. To be more clear, it isn't one of those things where I'd sit around snobbing that I hear something special when it is off by 70 samples or so. However, I do have enough of my own timing problems playing, I need all the alignment help I can get.

Seriously though, in cases such as this, as in something we can very easily control, I simply do that and I never need to even consider the hearing part. IE: I just calibrate what needs to be calibrated and don't have to get into all the GS type minutia. Not directed at this thread just the general benefit of doing so.
Actually my honest reaction isn't so much "Hey, what the heck it didn't offset perfect out of the box!"

More like "Oh, they have automatic correction stuff built into the driver now? Huh... I'll have to check that out. I just do it manually when setting up a new system."

Takes an hour to go through all the sample rates and combinations.
Kind of fun in a geeky way.

Wait... Hot chicks don't like geeks... I see what's going on here!

It took me 2 weeks of tweaking to get the cartridge aligned in my turntable a number of years ago! Progress!

Last edited by serr; 01-13-2015 at 06:43 PM.
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Old 01-13-2015, 07:24 PM   #118
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Been to Cocoa beach once or twice, have a friend who lives there, stark comparison to here for sure.
It's one of the few areas of Florida I like. I spend a lot of time in Jacksonville, Melbourne, and points in between. I'm down there in April again, as a matter of fact.
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Old 01-13-2015, 07:33 PM   #119
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I sweated over every second of my customers' time, and as a result I was able to retire in my 20's; but you keep telling me I'm looking at things wrong. Who are you to tell people not to worry about 5 minutes? Just some jerkoff whose time is worthless.
Getting paid extra in the champaign room doesn't make you qualified for much, audio wise.

My time goes for about $200 an hour. Does that qualify me to have an opinion?
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Old 01-13-2015, 07:45 PM   #120
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My time goes for about $200 an hour. Does that qualify me to have an opinion?
It qualifies you to have an opinion about how much your own 5 minutes are worth, and whether you yourself should quit talking on forums about products and just stfu and make music; but it doesn't qualify you to tell anyone to else to stfu and go make some music.

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Getting paid extra in the champaign room doesn't make you qualified for much, audio wise.
You would know about extra payments in the champaign room wouldn't you.
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