Old 01-24-2017, 10:43 AM   #1
CouRea
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Default SOUND CARD/INTERFACE Selection

Hello Everyone - I'm considering a new piece of gear, but wanted to ask my fellow peers about any pro's and con's to upgrading or staying with what I have.

I know not one specific piece of equipment will make a HUGE difference, but as far as sound cards/audio interfaces go, would it make a noticeable difference if I upgraded my (don't laugh)...M-Audio Audiophile 2496

http://www.ebay.com/itm/M-Audio-Desk...3D121945553520

....yes, it's a very old sound card, but I must say it is CLEAN and hasn't caused me any problems with my work flow. I just know it's a outdated piece of gear and didn't want to miss out on any new tech that may help my recordings. Also, it's a PCI card and I plan on building my new PC soon and I'm not sure if my motherboard will be PCI compatible and if the current drivers will work with it. I know for a fact M-Audio stopped supporting this card years ago so I don't think Windows 10 will support it.

Long story short...are there any significant advances with audio quality with just the sound card? I don't need many ins/outs...I produce in Reason and bounce over to Reaper to record vocals....that's it. No multiple recordings or instruments, just one-take vocals and dubs. Any suggestions (brands and models) are welcome or if you think my current card is fine please let me know that also.

Thanks Reaper Family!!

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Old 01-26-2017, 04:51 PM   #2
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if I was going to get a soundcard today, I'd get one that doesn't rely on third party drivers, such as a Behringer uphoria. great reviews lately.

if it needs its own drivers, i won't buy it.
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Old 01-26-2017, 09:15 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by reapercurious View Post
if I was going to get a soundcard today, I'd get one that doesn't rely on third party drivers, such as a Behringer uphoria. great reviews lately.

if it needs its own drivers, i won't buy it.
Um, needing it's own drivers makes those drivers first party, not third party.

And if it doesn't have it's own drivers, you are never going to get really good low latency performance. ASIO4ALL is a kludge, better than nothing, but inferior to a proper driver written by the people who make the interface.

As for the OP, RME and MOTU. There may be some other decent options, but unless you have direct experience with them, or know someone who does, you're rolling the dice.
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Old 01-27-2017, 01:25 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by drumphil View Post
Um, needing it's own drivers makes those drivers first party, not third party.
Still third party, as most of the manufactuers don't roll their own...

Quote:
And if it doesn't have it's own drivers, you are never going to get really good low latency performance. ASIO4ALL is a kludge, better than nothing, but inferior to a proper driver written by the people who make the interface.
Bollocks. Depends on the quality of the USB audio class drivers in your OS. Or the third party ones you buy. And these are as low latency as the rest. Examples: Android is very bad, iOS is good.

There are some problems: USB audio class is in any OS and works. Simple as that. USB2 audio class is missing from Windows 10. You need to buy the Ploytec driver, or use a USB audio class device. But these are getting scarce and might have problems with USB3 ports.

Also, ASIO4all isn't a driver.
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Old 01-27-2017, 04:56 PM   #5
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RME, MOTU, Lynx. Best interfaces around.

Who writes their drivers? Do they perform better or worse than other interfaces that use class compliant drivers? Remember, he's using a PC. Not android or Ios.

What interfaces perform better with class compliant drivers and the ASIO4ALL wrapper than they do with their own native ASIO drivers?

Who buys an interface where you have to buy a driver to make it work properly in windows? What about getting one that just works out of the box?

Quote:
Also, ASIO4all isn't a driver.
Yah, it's a wrapper, so why would you want that rather than a native asio driver?


So, break this down for me. What would be the advantages of not getting a MOTU, or RME, or Lynx, and instead getting something with USB class compliance, and then apparently buying another driver for it anyway?

Can you give me an example of a setup running the way that you suggests that has lower latency and better low latency processing performance than an RME interface running with its native driver?

If I'm missing something here I'd love to know. If you've already got a device that doesn't have native ASIO drivers and is class compliant, then I can see buying the polytec USB driver making sense, but I've never had to do that, because I get interfaces that have their own native ASIO drivers.

Does the polytec driver have accurate input and output offset correction for all the USB devices it supports? My audio interfaces do with their native drivers.

I mean, there are three options.

1: Buy interface with USB class compliance, use windows USB audio driver with ASIO4ALL wrapper, and get shitty performance.

2: Buy interface with USB class compliance, and if your interface is supported, buy the polytec USB driver for better ASIO performance.

3: Buy interface with it's own native ASIO driver right out of the box.

Obviously option one sucks. So what about 2 & 3? Why 2 over 3?

Where does stability at high load and low latency figure in to this? How does the polytec option do compared to an RME interface with native drivers?

Last edited by drumphil; 01-27-2017 at 05:33 PM.
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Old 01-27-2017, 07:14 PM   #6
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Of the three you mention, The only one I know for sure to make their own drivers is RME.

MOTU makes their own drivers, at least for their higher end stuff. I've no idea about Lynx.

And note that RME has the same low numbers for latency when running in class compliant mode.

Quote:
Who buys an interface where you have to buy a driver to make it work properly in windows?
It's the other way around. People have an interface and upgrade to Windows 10 supposing that their "driverless" interface will still work. When that happens, they can sell the interface, or buy a 3rd party driver.

Quote:
What about getting one that just works out of the box?
Most USB2 class interfaces on the market today work perfectly on Windows, 7, 8, Linux and OSX. Some come with a Windows 10 driver. But you need to check.

I also have no idea what ASIO4all is supposed to be doing in all of this. Does it even work with a non-ASIO driver?

The Ploytec driver is stable with the interfaces that are supported. Obviously, I haven't tested all of those. But I have used it to be able to run a Sound Devices USB Pre, when Sound Devices no longer supplied software for their hardware. That works as good as the original software. If there hadn't been Ploytec software, this expensive hardware would have been useless...
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Old 01-27-2017, 07:38 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by cyrano View Post
Of the three you mention, The only one I know for sure to make their own drivers is RME.

MOTU makes their own drivers, at least for their higher end stuff. I've no idea about Lynx.
Pretty sure they all make their own drivers for all interfaces.

Quote:
And note that RME has the same low numbers for latency when running in class compliant mode.
OK, so show me some figures from a windows box at 64 and 128 samples buffer size comparing the latency between the native RME drivers using ASIO, and the USB class compliant drivers (using WDM I guess, unless you use the ASIO4ALL WDM wrapper to present an ASIO interface to your software).

Quote:
It's the other way around. People have an interface and upgrade to Windows 10 supposing that their "driverless" interface will still work. When that happens, they can sell the interface, or buy a 3rd party driver.
If they want acceptable latency performance in windows they are going to have to buy the third party driver as soon as they get their interface. Good interfaces already come with ASIO drivers that work well at low latencies, and the 3rd party drivers don't support all class compliant interfaces.


Quote:
Most USB2 class interfaces on the market today work perfectly on Windows, 7, 8, Linux and OSX. Some come with a Windows 10 driver. But you need to check.
Again, show me some round trip latency figures from a windows box using the built in class compliant drivers.

Quote:
I also have no idea what ASIO4all is supposed to be doing in all of this. Does it even work with a non-ASIO driver?
ASIO4ALL is a wrapper that presents an ASIO driver interface to your software, and talks to the WDM driver (in this case the USB class compliant driver built into windows).

Quote:
The Ploytec driver is stable with the interfaces that are supported. Obviously, I haven't tested all of those. But I have used it to be able to run a Sound Devices USB Pre, when Sound Devices no longer supplied software for their hardware. That works as good as the original software. If there hadn't been Ploytec software, this expensive hardware would have been useless...
Never had to worry about that because I get interfaces from companies that support their products well and have excellent performance right out of the box.
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Old 01-27-2017, 07:54 PM   #8
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To sum things up a bit.

If you get class compliant interface it will work without first party drivers on just about any platform (yay!) (well, the RME wont in windows, so boo!)

But if you are using windows the latency performance is terrible (boo!)

But you can get third party drivers that replace the class complaint drivers, and give you a low latency ASIO driver option (yay!)

But even then it won't perform as well as something like an RME interface (boo!)

So, you get the RME, and discover that you don't need third party drivers to get good performance out of it in class compliant mode (if the third part drivers will even work with the RME), because of the excellent performance and stability of the first party RME drivers in native mode. (yay/boo?)

Having a look through the list of interfaces that polytec makes the driver for, I can't see anything that does as well as the good interfaces we already know of at round trip latency, and performance at high system loads.


From RME, regarding class compliant mode:

Quote:
1. General remarks

The Fireface UCX operates in three different modes: driver-based USB 2, stand-alone mode, and Class Compliant mode. The latter describes a standard that is natively supported by operating systems like Windows, Mac OSX and Linux. No proprietary drivers are required, the device will be directly recognized when the CC firmware is loaded. Obviously, native features will be limited in comparison to those provided by the RME driver for the UCX. For example there will be no (Total) Mix and no settings for the effects.

The Class Compliant mode can be activated and deactivated by the button on the front panel at any time.

Most Class Compliant audio devices use the USB 1.0 standard, released in 1996 for USB 1.1. The UCX features USB Audio 2.0, therefore supports USB 2.0 and will be ready for future upgrades. USB Audio 2.0 offers a bandwidth performance comparable to operation with the RME drivers, and should allow the transmission of all the unit's channels. It won't be comparable to the RME drivers in terms of latency, though.

Windows does not support USB Audio 2.0 directly. The UCX will be detected, but automatic driver installation will fail.

Mac OS X supports USB Audio 2.0, even with more than 2 channels. The UCX offers 2-channel and 18-channel mode. Linux should work as well, but this has not been tested and will likely depend on the individual distribution.

Neither of these systems is relevant, though, since there are dedicated and matured drivers for both OS X and Windows, which provide ALL the device's features at lowest latencies. The main reason for implementing Class Compliant mode was to allow connecting the UCX to any Apple iPad!
http://www.rme-audio.de/en/support/techinfo_cc_mode.php

So if you run it in class compliant mode in windows it won't work, and even if it did, the latency would be terrible, and even if you used the polytec drivers (assuming they work with it) you won't have access to Totalmix and other features, and you probably won't get as good performance as the native drivers anyway.

If you were using a mac you'd get decent latency performance using the class compliant drivers, but you still wouldn't get access to Totalmix or other custom features.

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Old 01-28-2017, 06:36 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CouRea View Post
I know not one specific piece of equipment will make a HUGE difference, but as far as sound cards/audio interfaces go, would it make a noticeable difference if I upgraded my (don't laugh)...M-Audio Audiophile 2496

....yes, it's a very old sound card, but I must say it is CLEAN and hasn't caused me any problems with my work flow. I just know it's a outdated piece of gear and didn't want to miss out on any new tech that may help my recordings. Also, it's a PCI card and I plan on building my new PC soon and I'm not sure if my motherboard will be PCI compatible and if the current drivers will work with it. I know for a fact M-Audio stopped supporting this card years ago so I don't think Windows 10 will support it.
I have 2 machines with an Audiophile 2496 in them, one running win 10, great little cards. The win 10 machine was first just upgraded and then when i found everything worked ok in win 10, i formatted and did a clean install. I then installed the win 7 Audiophile 2496 drivers and the audio works fine.

So it works fine for me in my machine but of course thats no guarantee that it will work for you with your hardware.
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Old 01-28-2017, 06:59 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by drumphil View Post
Having a look through the list of interfaces that polytec makes the driver for, I can't see anything that does as well as the good interfaces we already know of at round trip latency, and performance at high system loads.
That's true for Windows. But I've used several RME interfaces with iOS, Linux and BSD on occasion and that works very well.

People are always a little amazed when you record 8 channels on an iPad...

Quote:
So if you run it in class compliant mode in windows it won't work, and even if it did, the latency would be terrible, and even if you used the polytec drivers (assuming they work with it) you won't have access to Totalmix and other features, and you probably won't get as good performance as the native drivers anyway.
It works in Windows in USB2 class compliant mode, just not in Win 10. But class compliant mode is meant for iOS, Android, Linux and any other platform that RME doesn't develop drivers for. Of course, latency depends on that platform, so it's not very good on Android, but good on iOS, for example.

There's even a separate startup setting for Mac and Windows because USB behaviour is different and RME can do that because they develop their own USB/FW driver chips. Well, chips, it's an FPGA, really, for the technically interested.

Quote:
If you were using a mac you'd get decent latency performance using the class compliant drivers, but you still wouldn't get access to Totalmix or other custom features.
That's a completely different matter. You can store all the settings you need in the interface. Even mixes. But you'd still need a Mac or a Windows machine with RME drivers to set that up.

Hec, you can even store several setups and select one of them with the encoder on the interface.
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Old 01-28-2017, 06:28 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Rodal View Post
I have 2 machines with an Audiophile 2496 in them, one running win 10, great little cards. The win 10 machine was first just upgraded and then when i found everything worked ok in win 10, i formatted and did a clean install. I then installed the win 7 Audiophile 2496 drivers and the audio works fine.

So it works fine for me in my machine but of course thats no guarantee that it will work for you with your hardware.
The Audiophile 2496 is a great card. I have one of it's siblings, the delta 1010lt, running just fine in windows 10.

The limiting factor is modern motherboards. None of the brand new intel chipsets have native PCI support, and use bridge chips that cause problems with low latency operation.


Back to the OP. You have a very good sound card. I have a similar card, the delta 1010lt, and it is capable of extremely low latency operation and high stability. Absolutely nothing wrong with the sound quality.

What interface were you thinking about getting? You might gain some sound quality, but the difference may not be detectable, and it's very hard to find anything with latency figures as good as what you've got. Balanced IO would be an advantage you could gain from getting something else, but if that doesn't make much difference to you, then I'd have to ask what you expect to gain from this upgrade?


Regarding the discussion over class compliant drivers: He's thinking about replacing a very low latency internal PCI card. I think we need more information before deciding that getting a class complaint interface is more important than other aspects of performance.

Last edited by drumphil; 01-28-2017 at 06:38 PM.
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Old 02-06-2017, 03:16 AM   #12
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I'm running an AP2496 w/W10 using the last driver they issued - v6.0.8 - in 'compatibility mode'.
It works better than I expected, not perfect, but fine for what I do, for the time being. I've been using the card since XP, through Vista/7/8.1 and the only OS it had real trouble with was 8.1. I've always been able tp get ~10ms latency on my modest setups.
If/when I'm 'forced' to go USB, I'll be disappointed if I can't get <12ms latency, but since most are claiming they can get circa 3ms... and the one I'm considering comes with W10 drivers.
It's a bit of a tangent here, but I'm not getting this obsession with ultra low latency. You can argue the toss all day long, but you can't detect lower than 12ms - let's say 10ms to be generous - with your ears; it's a fact.
When you're mixing the latency doesn't matter - just increase the buffer. If you're tracking live instruments, don't piss about with plugins until the instruments are done or freeze the tracks. The latency is almost irrelevant once you're doing it 'in the box'.
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Old 02-06-2017, 08:48 AM   #13
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That AP2496 was a great card, not sure how long it's been since I sold mine but seem it's still working for people now.

I use a small Behringer U202 for piping in audio digitally to some extra sources and while it performs fine overall there was one glaring problem with the drivers.

For some reason it polls the system about every 5 seconds producing large cpu spikes on all my cores. This then resulted in Cubase 8 producing dropouts on my main card (SonicCore). The only workaround was to disable the device. Luckily the digital input still passes audio in this situation so I can use it to monitor what I need.

I'd be wary of any of their other devices because of this.

If I had to buy something now it would most likely be an RME device.
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Old 02-06-2017, 04:01 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by drumphil View Post
RME, MOTU, Lynx. Best interfaces around.
maybe overkill for "I produce in Reason and bounce over to Reaper to record vocals....that's it."

like i said, nothing wrong with a Behringer USB interface. I'd take the plunge on one myself if I were going to buy right now. I mean, really unless you've got a tuned mastering room with 20,000 dollar speakers and interns, i defy you to tell the difference between the most expensive RME and a Behringer for doing vocal overdubs in Reason.
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Old 02-06-2017, 04:03 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Rodal View Post
I have 2 machines with an Audiophile 2496 in them, one running win 10, great little cards. The win 10 machine was first just upgraded and then when i found everything worked ok in win 10, i formatted and did a clean install. I then installed the win 7 Audiophile 2496 drivers and the audio works fine.

So it works fine for me in my machine but of course thats no guarantee that it will work for you with your hardware.
+1 for "if it aint broke, dont fix it"
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