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03-20-2011, 09:15 PM
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#1
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Toronto, Ontario Canada
Posts: 825
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What Do You Guys Think Of This Mix?
I think I'm getting somewhere but just need a knowlegable objective opinion.
http://www.box.net/shared/lbmxb567dl
Last edited by Guncho; 04-03-2011 at 08:04 AM.
Reason: New link with corrected timing errors
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03-20-2011, 09:33 PM
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#2
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Buffalo NY
Posts: 1,091
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Perhaps host it somewhere where i dont need to sign up.
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03-20-2011, 09:35 PM
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#3
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Toronto, Ontario Canada
Posts: 825
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Quote:
Originally Posted by junioreq
Perhaps host it somewhere where i dont need to sign up.
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Sorry I always forget to post the public link.
[ http://www.box.net/shared/lbmxb567dl
Last edited by Guncho; 04-03-2011 at 08:05 AM.
Reason: Fixed timing issues
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03-20-2011, 09:41 PM
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#4
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Buffalo NY
Posts: 1,091
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Seems like the drums are clipping/ distorted. Lots of mud. Not much of a high end. Sounds pretty lo-fi.
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03-20-2011, 09:56 PM
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#5
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Toronto, Ontario Canada
Posts: 825
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Quote:
Originally Posted by junioreq
Seems like the drums are clipping/ distorted. Lots of mud. Not much of a high end. Sounds pretty lo-fi.
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Hmm nothing seems to be clipping. Drums are me playing a Roland TD-3 with EZdrummer Vintage Kit. Drums are registering on track as -7.4. On the drum track I have EZdrummer vintage rock kit on the Roomy preset with slight kick boost, a JS:UTILITY/Limiter set to -3 and TAL reverb set to Gentle drum ambience. On the master track I have Kjaerhus Classic Compressor on the Mix Down present and JS:LOSER/Masterlimiter with a threshold of -3.9 and limit of -.06.
Here's a sample of just drums.
http://www.box.net/shared/kma0869tl3
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03-21-2011, 01:06 AM
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#6
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Auckland NZ
Posts: 938
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Sounds slighty out of pocket to me - like at times the drums and guitars are slightly out of sync.
Enjoyed it tho - You almost have a Joe Walsh vibe to your voice, other times it reminds me of Tom Petty.
Keep it coming!
Cheers
Jed
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03-21-2011, 01:19 AM
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#7
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Down Under
Posts: 2,148
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I really like the song, great chorus, is this your song?, if so good work.
The main problems i hear are timing issues, sounds like the Bass & drums mostly.
If you work to tighten up the playing this will help a huge amount.
With a song like this its the Drums and bass that really drive the song so they have to be tight, try to choose a kick sound that compliments the bass sound or vice versa, then it will be much easier to eq them to sit together right.
Then bring the voice more forward in the mix, not necessarily louder just more in front of everything else.
The mix does sound a bit dark so some high end eq here and there , maybe rhe drums and vocals for a start and see how that goes.
HTH's, again really like the song.
Cheers
Last edited by Wolffman; 03-21-2011 at 02:19 AM.
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03-21-2011, 02:00 AM
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#8
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Norway
Posts: 409
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I would say that the mixing isn't the problem, but the playing is. It has to be a lot tighter. It will overshadow any good mix you do. If you can't play drums tighter, quantize that bitch
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03-21-2011, 03:57 AM
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#9
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Toronto, Ontario Canada
Posts: 825
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Thanks guys! Yeah I wrote this a long time ago but never got around to recording it.
Will work on eq and tightening up the tracks.
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03-21-2011, 04:23 AM
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#10
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Buffalo NY
Posts: 1,091
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Plus, when the timing is off just a snatch hair, you smear or lose the attack of the instruments etc.. Grid it..
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03-21-2011, 05:19 AM
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#11
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Toronto, Ontario Canada
Posts: 825
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Could anyone point me to a good tutorial on using quantize in Reaper?
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03-21-2011, 06:18 AM
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#12
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 415
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well apart from the obvious timing problems, i find the sound a little muddy in the mid range. try carving out some of the low mid frequencies on some instruments to make a little more space in the mix. otherwise nice song
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03-21-2011, 06:19 AM
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#13
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Toronto, Ontario Canada
Posts: 825
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Are there certain sections of the song where the timing is that off? Maybe I've listened to it too many times.
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03-21-2011, 06:38 AM
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#14
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Norway
Posts: 409
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Well, especially the breaks that start at about :46 sound really off. But i would also have to say that the pulse in the song seems sloppy, in lack of a better word. Don't have a link to quantizing in Reaper. But try to figure it out, and re-record the bass with quantized drums. If i were to describe the problem in a word, i would say it sounds lagging. Like the pulse, which here should be the drums and bass are hanging behind the rest of the song. And that doesn't quite suit this type of song where i would think you would want more of a driving feeling. Sorry i don't have any tips on the mixing, more of a musician than an engineer
Good luck!
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03-21-2011, 06:40 AM
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#15
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Toronto, Ontario Canada
Posts: 825
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No worries it's totally appreciated. Sometimes it's hard to be objective with your own stuff. Without you guys, this would gone up on myspace last night in present form. Back to the woodshed to whip this song into shape.
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03-21-2011, 11:01 AM
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#16
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 106
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Great tune, man! Aside from the timing stuff already mentioned, for my taste, the guitar that comes in at around 4:00 is cool, but is a bit overbearing. I'd like to hear it a little farther back in the mix so it still pumps up that awesome chorus you have without drowning out the vocals. Again, fun, catchy tune!
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03-21-2011, 11:02 AM
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#17
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Toronto, Ontario Canada
Posts: 825
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Yeah that was hard as the vocals and guitar are in the same frequency. I'll try to notch it a bit more.
Thanks for the feedback!
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03-21-2011, 02:01 PM
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#18
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,347
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As others have pointed out, the big problem in this song is sync/timing between instruments. The mix sounds rather good in my ears. How was this recorded? To help eliminating sync problems, it's best to record drums first (maybe just preceded by a little something so you know what you are playing to when recording the drums).
Btw, I have also made a tune called "Changes":
http://boray.wontek.net/shareware/Bo...05_Changes.mp3
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03-21-2011, 02:04 PM
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#19
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Toronto, Ontario Canada
Posts: 825
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Yeah I'm going to go through the song track by track and make sure everything is tight as a drum.
The song was recorded by figuring out the tempo. Looping 6 minutes of a stock rock beat from Ezdrummer and then playing over it. Once I had enough stuff I redid the drums with my Roland Kit.
I think this really comes down to me being lazy. I'll try harder!
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03-21-2011, 02:27 PM
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#20
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Buffalo NY
Posts: 1,091
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Grid the sucker. Slip edit the guitars and bass right to the grid. Solved It is 2011 after all and you only have 1 year left until we all die in a scorching fireball..
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03-21-2011, 02:45 PM
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#21
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 300
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aye to everything above, and the intro is a bit naked and perhaps not executed very precisely. With all the caveats mentioned above, I like the tune, and the lead vox has some character . . .
__________________
DualCore Pentium D 920 2800 MHz, XP sp3, emu 0404 usb, Licensed Reaper user
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03-22-2011, 06:40 AM
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#22
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Toronto, Ontario Canada
Posts: 825
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Timing=Better?
I quantized the drums and went over them manually where needed, redid the bass completely and went over the guitars with a fine tooth comb.
http://www.box.net/shared/lbmxb567dl
Last edited by Guncho; 04-03-2011 at 08:05 AM.
Reason: Fixed timing issues
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03-22-2011, 07:09 AM
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#23
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,347
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A lot better now.
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03-22-2011, 07:15 AM
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#24
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Norway
Posts: 409
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The timing is definately much better overall, but you might want to go over the breaks a bit more careful, especially the ones i mentioned before, at about :42. And i'm not sure, but i think the bass might be a little off key, and you might want to re-record it anyways, just to get it more in sync with the quantized drums. Remember that in a rock song like this, the bass should correlate very much with the kick drum to get a stable grove. Or sumath :P But an improvement overall, and i think when you do a bit more tweaking and get the vocals on top, it'll gel nicely.
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03-22-2011, 09:52 AM
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#25
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Toronto, Ontario Canada
Posts: 825
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anokah
The timing is definately much better overall, but you might want to go over the breaks a bit more careful, especially the ones i mentioned before, at about :42. And i'm not sure, but i think the bass might be a little off key, and you might want to re-record it anyways, just to get it more in sync with the quantized drums. Remember that in a rock song like this, the bass should correlate very much with the kick drum to get a stable grove. Or sumath :P But an improvement overall, and i think when you do a bit more tweaking and get the vocals on top, it'll gel nicely.
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The breaks are hard as they're so dense but I'll try.
Where do you think the bass is off key? It's weird cause I tuned my bass last night, re-recorded the bass track and listened back and the low E string was not in tune with the guitars. So I manually lowered the E string a bit until it sounded in tune to me and re-recorded it.
Do you think it sounds out of tune at :16 or 1:14?
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03-22-2011, 11:01 AM
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#26
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Norway
Posts: 409
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It just sounds out of tune all the way. Might just be the timbre of the bass or something else mucking up my perception. Or the intonation in your bass might be wacked. You do use a tuner to tune up?
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03-22-2011, 11:02 AM
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#27
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Toronto, Ontario Canada
Posts: 825
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I do yeah. I'll check it tonight and redo if need be.
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03-22-2011, 11:18 AM
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#28
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Buffalo NY
Posts: 1,091
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When tracking, re-tune after every take. Intonation must be DEAD on. Make sure you are not pressing the strings down too far because that causes them to go sharp etc. Lol its a pain in the but, but tracking, isn't just go have fun and play lol..U gotta be gently and precise. When your done with the bass part. Use slip editing and line up all the transients to the beat. Do you know how to slip edit?
BTW, do not try to get the whole track in one take. If you feel you missed something, or you hit a note that doesn't sound the same volume as the rest. Stop, go back a bit and punch in.
Also, as your fingers get tired on bass, you may get sloppy near the end of the track. Stop halfway through, wait awhile and punch in and finish the rest of the song. Keeps it sounding consistent. Remember too, there shouldn't be a real need to do any AGGRESSIVE compression on the bass guitar, just maybe 3-4 db at peaks. Your playing and finger technique IS THE COMPRESSOR. Keep it even.
~Rob.
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03-22-2011, 11:34 AM
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#29
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Toronto, Ontario Canada
Posts: 825
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I'll check the intonation tonight but does it sound out of tune to you? It doesn't to me.
No I don't know how to slip edit. I adjusted any timing problems manually or by punching in.
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03-22-2011, 11:38 AM
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#30
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Buffalo NY
Posts: 1,091
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Oh man, slip editing is necessary these days man. Look it up on here and learn it today. You will NOT be sorry. Gotta love manual audio quantizing <3
~Rob.
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03-25-2011, 01:35 AM
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#31
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Buffalo NY
Posts: 1,091
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All tracks should be slip edited such as this one guitar track:
~Rob.
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03-25-2011, 06:05 AM
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#32
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,347
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Hmmm... If you want it to sound like a computer playing, you can slip edit all your tracks to death... Or you could do like me and just edit out the obvious errors. I want to keep the fun of making music alive you see...
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04-03-2011, 02:02 AM
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#33
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Here
Posts: 3,000
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I have no real issue with the drum sound. But the playing and timing are, um, not great.
I couldn't tell at first if it was real drummer playing (or trying to play) to recorded tracks, or unquantized MIDI drums that were played on a keyboard or tiny pads, or what. Your explanation of how you did them accounts for what they sound like.
I like the style of the first guitar solo. The second lead (non 'solo') gtr also has a nice loose feel to it, but the drums are already more looseness than the production can carry.
The vocals on the cho brought to mind something like the Band crossed with the Eagles -- hmm interesting... both of those bands had singing drummers. The diff being, those drums usually were tight and listenable -- not to pour salt into the wound. ;-)
I don't see any point in using 'live' drums just for some theoretical feel thing -- not that that's necessarily what yr doing... just saying. Better off with an undistinguished drum part than something that calls attn to itself in a not good way.
In this song, you have those rhythmic fills with the gtr and drums (kind of Kinks, kinda Who, kinda Charlie Watts 1966 Brit Invasion) and I like that kind of thing a lot. But, if those aren't done right, they're better off not being done -- certainly as a final. If the idea is to get a template for a part to be played later 'for real', or to get ideas for MIDI programming, that's another thing.
Producing tracks to a grid doesn't have to mean lifeless. Better to have to manually shift things off-grid when you want some elasticity, than to have to map poorly played stuff to a grid. IMO. AS it is now, it sounds like the drums were tracked while the drummer was fighting latency, or in another room room sans headphones.
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04-03-2011, 06:46 AM
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#34
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 4,025
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Good catchy tune Guncho. I can't get past the timing, personally so I can't get to the point of picking the mix apart. I do really like the song though. The chorus melody and the harmonies are especially catchy.
Actually, I like the vocal verb. Nice and natural. What are you using?
I knew what the bass line was going to be before it started. Not a critique, just thought it was cool that my mind hooked that up and wanted to mention it.
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04-03-2011, 08:08 AM
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#35
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Toronto, Ontario Canada
Posts: 825
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Ouch! Haha no worries, any feedback is appreciated. The drums are me playing a Roland kit into Ezdrummer. Did you guys listen to the version after I had corrected some timing issues?
http://www.box.net/shared/lbmxb567dl
I don't yet know how to slip edit but I quantized them and corrected things manually where needed on all tracks.
The reverb is Reaverb with stock impulses and the SweetVerbo preset with a send of -25db.
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04-03-2011, 12:54 PM
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#36
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,696
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im still hearing some timing problems. mostly between the drums and bass, but even at times the vocal phrases aren't really in the pocket either, and some guitar too. If you have the drums quantized, then go through the audio next. This really is a good song, and would IMO be worth trying the full blown audio surgery to get the timing nailed. Plus, after this song, you'll be really good at editing. My suggestion going forward would be to get the drum track nailed before any instrument tracking.. then you won't have the whole project to try to fix.
Good luck, and this definately is a gem waiting to be cut
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04-03-2011, 01:36 PM
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#37
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Toronto, Ontario Canada
Posts: 825
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I think maybe the problem is I redid the drums after I had recorded everything so when I recorded the guitars and vocals, I was playing to a different drum track.
I will have to do some more editing.
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04-03-2011, 01:46 PM
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#38
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Toronto, Ontario Canada
Posts: 825
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Junioreq offered to do a remix and I took him up on it of course. He didn't do any timing surgery but he definetly made it sound a lot "clearer" and "brighter". Some things he did that I noticed were he used judicious amounts of saturation and eq. More than I ever would have thought to be acceptable but it sounds great. He used JS:liton/nonlinear for saturation a lot which is a plug I have never used before. He also used the technique of duplicating the lead vocal and the bass trick, heavily effecting one and not the other, then blending them together. I'm sure there's lots more going on as well in here that I haven't figured out yet.
Check it out!
http://www.box.net/shared/u0p9f7dchv
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04-03-2011, 02:28 PM
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#39
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Buffalo NY
Posts: 1,091
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No, this was my mix:
http://www.robrokkenaudio.com/stuff/rob-changes.mp3
Headphone mix, warning haha.. with that uber horrible vocal double up too loud (not the singing thats horrible, that i had the second vox up too loud is lol) and tippy kick haha..
Overheads are spaced pair, had to keep the pan tight on the overs otherwise the snare was jumping out the side, also way too much snare in the overheads with way too much snares sound crackling.....
~Rob.
Last edited by junioreq; 04-03-2011 at 02:37 PM.
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04-03-2011, 09:26 PM
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#40
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Toronto, Ontario Canada
Posts: 825
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Wow I've been slip editing for hours and it is labourous. I've had to abandon my work and start over like twice as everything got screwed up beyond recogntion. Is it going to be possible to line the rest of the instruments up to the drum track when I'm done it? Is slip editing the entire song the way to go at this point or should I just spot fix? Seems like maybe slip editing is something you do after you record the drums and before you record anything else.
Also what's the difference between slip editing and 100% quantizing?
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