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08-08-2014, 08:46 AM
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#1
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Chicago, Il USA
Posts: 706
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Is Reaper Idiot Proof
Just had a friend tell me he lost all 5 recorded audio tracks in his DAW when he forget to "save as" a .seq format at the end of the session. (his DAW to remain nameless)
Actually I thought Reaper would not allow such a thing to happen in that any take which was accepted would be written to disk so that it could be recovered, even if I did not save the sesson at the end. Does this sound right? Would Reaper protect us from our own stupidity?
__________________
"significantly better than bad..." - Dell XPS i7, 16G Ram, Win 10 64Bit, REAPER 64Bit, MOTU Audio Express, PG Music - BIAB 2020, Kontakt 5, more VSTs than I know what to do with. Will trade all to play the guitar and keys better!
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08-08-2014, 09:04 AM
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#2
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Seattle
Posts: 5,635
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You can always find a better idiot, but Reaper has auto-save as a feature for a reason.
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08-08-2014, 09:05 AM
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#3
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 21,551
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Which begs the question, does auto-save work if you haven't named and saved the song yet?
If so, what does it do?
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08-08-2014, 09:07 AM
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#4
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Banned
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: gently scraping your delicate sensibilities with a potato peeler
Posts: 6,791
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REAPER holds its own in protecting users from their own stupidity, sadly though, it will do nothing to protect you from the stupidity of others. Feature request!
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08-08-2014, 09:11 AM
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#5
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29,260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence
Which begs the question, does auto-save work if you haven't named and saved the song yet?
If so, what does it do?
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No it doesn't, only an idiot would start something important and not hit save so there is the answer. /thread
Side note: Sound Forge tries but fails miserably by saving a randomly named temp file. I lost three hours worth of improv work (meaning its gone forever) over it the other day because SF couldn't figure out what to recover making me the real idiot because I should have known better. I lost the actual WAV data it recorded. At least reaper can save the wave as a wav and you know where it is if it crashes. SF got confused over a previous session and recovered that OVER what I just recorded.
Lesson: Never ever, ever expect software to do your due diligence for something that is important to "you" regardless of the feature set.
__________________
Music is what feelings sound like.
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08-08-2014, 09:17 AM
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#6
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Location
Posts: 5,559
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Well, I'm an idiot and I work with it.
No, I'm really highly intelligent and .... bla bla
In fact I'm none of both but tend to (forget to) do (silly) things.
If one is not too dumb, it's quite unlikely that (s)he loses her/his work. It's just important to follow some simple rules. One of the most important is: Every project should go to its own folder!
To avoid data loss, you can use the settings at "Options -> Preferences -> General -> Undo settings" and "Options -> Preferences -> Project -> Project saving". They are quite versatile. They even allow to set Reaper up in a way that you can undo steps across sessions.
-Data
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08-08-2014, 09:25 AM
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#7
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Location
Posts: 5,559
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic
No it doesn't, only an idiot would start something important and not hit save so there is the answer. /thread
Side note: Sound Forge tries but fails miserably by saving a randomly named temp file. I lost three hours worth of improv work (meaning its gone forever) over it the other day because SF couldn't figure out what to recover making me the real idiot because I should have known better. I lost the actual WAV data it recorded. At least reaper can save the wave as a wav and you know where it is if it crashes. SF got confused over a previous session and recovered that OVER what I just recorded.
Lesson: Never ever, ever expect software to do your due diligence for something that is important to "you" regardless of the feature set.
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Well, I had that twice or eleven times as well with SF. IIRC I could recover things (at least partly) by renaming *.tmp files to *.wav or to *.raw and import them as raw data.
But I must admit, I haven't done any serious thing in Sound Forge for a long time, I just vaguely remember that it worked in some cases.
-Data
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08-08-2014, 10:22 AM
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#8
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 21,551
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic
No it doesn't, only an idiot would start something important and not hit save so there is the answer. /thread
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Lol. I only asked because someone on KVR actually did it in another daw, and then started a thread saying that auto-save was broken because he crashed and had never saved it once and there was no auto-save backup.
And yes, he's... that word you used above.
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08-08-2014, 11:35 AM
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#9
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 22,754
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Yeahbut Yeahbut how do you KNOW when you start out that its going to be important?
Reaper should have precognitive project awareness and artisitic discrimination built in!
I bet Cubendo and Studio one and Po Tools have it already.....
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08-08-2014, 11:45 AM
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#10
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-blänk-
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 11,359
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If you don't answer the dialog that comes up when recording is stopped with "Delete", then you never lose your recorded audio tracks, whether the project has been saved or not. I actually don't know of a DAW where such a loss can happen. With Reaper they will land in a folder called REAPER Media if you don't change that.
With MIDI that's another story. No project - no MIDI recordings, if you don't change Reaper's default settings.
I know you know and that's not what you guys are discussing here, but lost audio files is what the OP is about, so I thought it should at least be mentioned .
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08-08-2014, 11:50 AM
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#11
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Argentina
Posts: 326
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How i quote???
Yeahbut Yeahbut how do you KNOW when you start out that its going to be important?
Im whit you!
If i hit save everytime i sit in the keyboard whit the mic on... the world just be a worst place.
For work you should hit save always.
__________________
Living la vida loca
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08-08-2014, 12:06 PM
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#12
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-blänk-
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 11,359
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I actually quite often just dabble around and save only when I think there's something interesting that starts to happen. Then I save with the option "move media into project directiory.
The only "problem" I have is that I have to go and empty the default media directory from time to time.
(quote by hitting the "Quote" button instead of "Reply", or do (quote)...blahdeblah...(/quote) but with square brackets)
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08-08-2014, 12:21 PM
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#13
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 21,551
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc
Yeahbut Yeahbut how do you KNOW when you start out that its going to be important?
Reaper should have precognitive project awareness and artisitic discrimination built in!
I bet Cubendo ... have it already.....
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Actually it does. Since you have to pick a folder for every song, auto-save (if it's on) starts working automatically even if you never hit save. It starts making backups named after the untitled song, so yeah, it would save that idiot too.
untitled1.bak
untitled1-02.bak
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08-08-2014, 12:30 PM
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#14
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 12,562
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzmandan
Just had a friend tell me he lost all 5 recorded audio tracks in his DAW when he forget to "save as" a .seq format at the end of the session. (his DAW to remain nameless)
Actually I thought Reaper would not allow such a thing to happen in that any take which was accepted would be written to disk so that it could be recovered, even if I did not save the sesson at the end. Does this sound right? Would Reaper protect us from our own stupidity?
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"Is Reaper Idiot Proof"
A challenge!
That other DAW would have had to have a feature that automatically deletes unused takes when you close the project for them to have been lost.
You would need to intentionally build custom actions into Reaper to have this happen. Out of the box, Reaper will. not. delete. anything.
Even if the power goes out, the recorded audio file is intact and a complete readable file right up to the point the power went off and recording stopped.
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08-08-2014, 12:33 PM
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#15
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 21,551
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I'm going to leave this alone now. But I have to ask...
Quote:
Out of the box, Reaper will. not. delete. anything.
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You say that as if that's actually not the case everywhere? You are certainly aware (or maybe not) that "non-destructive" editing is kinda... universal, and that if you want to literally delete a file you have to manually do that, in any pro workstation?
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08-08-2014, 01:03 PM
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#16
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-blänk-
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 11,359
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I read it as saying if the OP's friend is right, then his
Quote:
Originally Posted by serr
... DAW would have had to have a feature that automatically deletes unused takes when you close the project...
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I don't see serr saying that all other DAWs but Reaper or any at all do that. Myself, I know of none, but that doesn't mean much anymore these days.
Nevertheless, I'd advice the chap to do a search with his default audio recording format and the date of recording. Chances are that he's better off than he thinks.
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08-08-2014, 01:13 PM
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#17
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 12,562
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence
I'm going to leave this alone now. But I have to ask...
You say that as if that's actually not the case everywhere? You are certainly aware (or maybe not) that "non-destructive" editing is kinda... universal, and that if you want to literally delete a file you have to manually do that, in any pro workstation?
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I said it that way because I've seen features in other DAWs (how about ⌘. in Protools for example) for deleting audio. Whereas Reaper doesn't even have a delete take feature without going out of your way a little to add it.
That's all.
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08-08-2014, 01:23 PM
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#18
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29,260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Data
Well, I had that twice or eleven times as well with SF. IIRC I could recover things (at least partly) by renaming *.tmp files to *.wav or to *.raw and import them as raw data.
But I must admit, I haven't done any serious thing in Sound Forge for a long time, I just vaguely remember that it worked in some cases.
-Data
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Yes, it has. Didn't mean to imply never as much as I meant to imply the one time it appeared to be the most important feature ever, it failed which reminded me to never depend on such a thing no matter how much people think it is going to save the world. I did the rename but it was an older session with a newer date, kinda weird, but enough to aggravate the crap out of me.
__________________
Music is what feelings sound like.
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08-08-2014, 01:26 PM
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#19
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 12,562
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gofer
I read it as saying if the OP's friend is right, then his
I don't see serr saying that all other DAWs but Reaper or any at all do that. Myself, I know of none, but that doesn't mean much anymore these days.
Nevertheless, I'd advice the chap to do a search with his default audio recording format and the date of recording. Chances are that he's better off than he thinks.
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Exactly
In Reaper, if the power went off after recording a take but 30 seconds before an auto-backup would fire off (and you simultaneously discover the batteries are getting old in your studio UPS)...
Open the last saved session. Browse the project folder for the audio you just recorded. Drag it into the track you want. Then select it and click 'Move items to source preferred position' in the item menu.
True story
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08-08-2014, 01:26 PM
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#20
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 21,551
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Ah, ok. (That PT key) Does that literally delete (erase) the file or just remove it from the timeline?
As to the second thing, anyone recording without BWF timestamps is kind of asking for trouble, no clue (except for compressed formats that maybe don't support it) why anyone would ever do that. Any daw that can't spot an audio file from it's timestamp is not a pro daw.
That's in every pro daw I've ever owned, but it's ok to be impressed by it if you've never seen it before.
Last edited by Lawrence; 08-08-2014 at 01:33 PM.
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08-08-2014, 01:27 PM
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#21
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29,260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc
Yeahbut Yeahbut how do you KNOW when you .
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The same reason I put safety glasses on when I'm using power tools and don't know if/when one is going to send shrapnel into my eyes.
For all, not knowing is exactly why it's better to just save first no matter what. That way you are the one who gets to be in control of what gets kept. As my example above, SF had the feature, it failed me when it was most important. It was a great reminder to me to never depend on a feature where data loss is concerned. I you can't be bothered to save it and be proactive, it's your own damn fault, feature or otherwise. - the proverbial you of course. If one is so inspired musically that they can't hit CTRL+S without losing the inspiration, seek help for that.
As far as Reaper saving untiled.xxx, have at it, fine by me but it does the true idiot no real good.
__________________
Music is what feelings sound like.
Last edited by karbomusic; 08-08-2014 at 01:35 PM.
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08-08-2014, 02:32 PM
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#22
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 22,754
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence
Actually it does. Since you have to pick a folder for every song, auto-save (if it's on) starts working automatically even if you never hit save. It starts making backups named after the untitled song, so yeah, it would save that idiot too.
untitled1.bak
untitled1-02.bak
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Ya got a point there....
I was being facetious as usual, but in my haste to mock I HAD forgotten this aspect of new projects in Reaper.
Makes a bit of a mockery of the original question now I come to think of it.
As I said earlier, some very weird threads about on here currently.
Me included, it seems....
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08-08-2014, 04:40 PM
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#23
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Super Moderator (no feelings)
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: On or near a dike
Posts: 9,834
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic
If one is so inspired musically that they can't hit CTRL+S without losing the inspiration, seek help for that.
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I really wonder what kind of person or institution could provide that help? Yoko Ono?
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08-08-2014, 05:25 PM
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#24
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29,260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ollie
I really wonder what kind of person or institution could provide that help? Yoko Ono?
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Yes, basically if you don't hit CTRL+S, she starts singing till you do. Pretty effective I hear.
__________________
Music is what feelings sound like.
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08-08-2014, 05:32 PM
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#25
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 6,551
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I still have unused takes and tracks from projects I abandoned without saving cluttering my hard drive from like... six, seven years ago? So yes, Reaper should be alright in that department. Worst case, you have to look through a few of the most recent files in your media folder to find the ones you want.
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08-08-2014, 06:42 PM
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#26
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Right Hear
Posts: 15,618
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it might be idiot proof but do you have proof of being an idiot? I am not foolish enough to say it is foolproof...
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08-08-2014, 08:26 PM
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#27
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Kalispell
Posts: 14,745
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hopi
it might be idiot proof but do you have proof of being an idiot? I am not foolish enough to say it is foolproof...
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Heh heh, well this idiot ran into one today that wasted half my afternoon.
Options-> Sync editor transport to project transport
If your not careful it just might reach out and grab you some day.
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08-14-2014, 08:31 PM
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#28
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Location
Posts: 5,559
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gofer
I read it as saying if the OP's friend is right, then his
I don't see serr saying that all other DAWs but Reaper or any at all do that. Myself, I know of none, but that doesn't mean much anymore these days.
Nevertheless, I'd advice the chap to do a search with his default audio recording format and the date of recording. Chances are that he's better off than he thinks.
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This reminds me of a 'very nice' accident that happened to me a few years ago with an even 'nicer' video software called "Pinnacle studio" or "Pinnacle video studio" bla bla or something.
I played around with that software to test it and at the and of the session (I know, it wasn't automatically and I triggered it) I chose something like "Clean project directory" or whatever it was called. It took just a few seconds to make me wonder why that process took that long.
The answer: Since I had not given a project directory Pinnacle began to delete the root and all subdirectories on the harddrive I was working on. That was a 'nice' experience and a good example of 'well-coded' software.
-Data
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08-14-2014, 09:36 PM
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#29
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Japan
Posts: 1,162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Data
This reminds me of a 'very nice' accident that happened to me a few years ago with an even 'nicer' video software called "Pinnacle studio" or "Pinnacle video studio" bla bla or something.
I played around with that software to test it and at the and of the session (I know, it wasn't automatically and I triggered it) I chose something like "Clean project directory" or whatever it was called. It took just a few seconds to make me wonder why that process took that long.
The answer: Since I had not given a project directory Pinnacle began to delete the root and all subdirectories on the harddrive I was working on. That was a 'nice' experience and a good example of 'well-coded' software.
-Data
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whoa, that's enough to give me chills!
But to answer your question, no program is idiot proof... No matter how hard you work to make it as "safe" and "easy" as possible, there will always a fool who will find a way to eff everything up.
that being said, some software is coded a lot better than others...
Like reaper compared to that very scary pinnacle software.
Note to self, avoid pinnacle at all cost!
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08-15-2014, 04:52 AM
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#30
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Scribe
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Van Diemen's Land
Posts: 12,167
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Nothing in this world is idiot proof. Quite scary really.
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08-15-2014, 07:53 AM
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#31
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Location
Posts: 5,559
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g4greg
whoa, that's enough to give me chills!
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Well, I got a sweating attack back then, I reckon. The best thing about all this was, that there wasn't even a warning or something. As soon as I released the mouse button from the menu item, the harddrive jolly began to move its heads back and forth.
-Data
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08-15-2014, 09:10 AM
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#32
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 4,630
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How can someone avoid the save button for so long? That is a feat of faith in fate worthy of any dedicated religious devotee...
...or the interval of naivety before someone learns an important lesson about the value of their wasted time and creative efforts.
Five tracks? Now that's a real stuntman.
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08-15-2014, 10:45 AM
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#33
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 21,551
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hopi
it might be idiot proof but do you have proof of being an idiot? I am not foolish enough to say it is foolproof...
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Lol. Yeah, like Jerome (I think) said, there's always a better idiot. And of course we're all idiots at one time or another, those of us willing to openly admit it anyway.
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08-15-2014, 11:03 AM
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#34
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2006
Location: L.A. Cahleefornia
Posts: 305
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As the old saying goes, you can't make anything foolproof because fools are much too resourceful.
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08-15-2014, 12:20 PM
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#35
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 6,290
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In order for things to be "idiot proof", there would have to be no involvement of human beings, at any stage in the game.
__________________
"F" off.
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08-15-2014, 01:30 PM
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#36
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Oblivion
Posts: 10,255
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reaper's definitely not fool proof. computers are unforgiving and idiots will get many lessons.
but reaper will not throw away your recordings.
haven't found a way to get unnamed projects to auto-save but the recordings will always be in this directory unless you do something with them:
not sure those are default settings though...
EDIT:
on second thought i don't think those settings do anything til you save at least once. more likely the default project settings will save/burn your ass:
Last edited by foxAsteria; 08-15-2014 at 03:53 PM.
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08-15-2014, 01:38 PM
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#37
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Lincoln, UK
Posts: 7,924
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As soon as you start something in REAPER you want to keep -save it.
No excuses, no petty reasons, save the bloody thing!
Computers have 1001 ways of losing stuff you do save without giving a grouchy system a free pass to spoil your day, so I don't want to hear any more -save it or shut up!
>
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08-15-2014, 05:13 PM
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#38
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Montreal, Canada
Posts: 295
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I'm just gonna leave that here....
__________________
RTFM or google it!!!
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08-15-2014, 05:29 PM
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#39
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Europe
Posts: 153
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People who look at options and enable these preventive features aren't "idiots", though.
But anyway, losing a bit of data can be a good lesson. Happens and you learn. If not, it happens again and maybe then the person learns.
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08-15-2014, 06:03 PM
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#40
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 20,859
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Better autosaving
I think it would be good if Reaper autosaved unnamed projects. If an autosaved/unnamed project crashes, there would be the option to jump right back into it upon restarting Reaper.
The problem with saving is that it isn't always known if a project will be worth saving (and under what name?). Or, a quick little ditty turns into a song, and saving the project hasn't entered the brain as the thing develops within a short span of time. The user could always delete an autosaved/unnamed project, but with the current scheme, once it's gone, it's gone.
It would also be good if Reaper [optionally] autosaved upon user selected events. Adding a plugin to a track? - option to autosave before adding new plugin. This can be done via actions, but it isn't ideal.
Also, maybe there could be some distinction made between user saving and autosaving via project naming.
My current scheme for autosaving (somewhat manaul) is kind of clunky, because Reaper's autosave doesn't cover the above.
__________________
It's time to take a stand against the synthesizer.
Last edited by brainwreck; 08-15-2014 at 06:10 PM.
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