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Old 08-13-2014, 11:54 AM   #1
Mizuki
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Default Problem with Roland piano and Reaper

Hi

I'm new to midi and reaper.

I have a Roland 401 piano and using reaper programs

I have connected Roland to the computer with usb and can record in midi fine. But when I choose Roland as output device I can only hear my standara piano sound. Even when I'm clearly using other sounds on my piano while i record in reaper.

So my question is how can I record so that the midi track will play the correct sound Im using when I record to reaper?

I'm new to midi so maybe im just thinking wrong here and its not possible to use the piano as a sound bank from a midi file.

I should say that I managed to connect the headphone output on the piano to my in-line jack on the computer soundcard and I can record correct sounds with Audacity. So seems I have at least connected something correct.
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Old 08-13-2014, 12:27 PM   #2
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you can do the same thing in reaper as you did in audacity

set up another track to record the audio out of your piano..

I don't know your piano and it's settings but I imagine what you need to have in the midi file is a program change to set the piano to its correct program at the start of the midi file...

what the number of that program change would be I can't at all say, you'd have to find that in your piano manual...

In the reaper midi editor, you can go to List View and insert a program change value at the top of the midi file...

you still are going to need a way to get the audio out of the piano... audio and midi are two very different things and midi only carries data and not sound.
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Old 08-13-2014, 01:02 PM   #3
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Ok thx I will try and find this and check the program change on reaper.

Also if I were to record with a midi track in reaper, do you mean I can chose in-line jack for that as input device, like where i chose Roland piano for the track when i recorded it?
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Old 08-13-2014, 01:14 PM   #4
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ummm it is goind to depend on your audio interface... it sounds like you only have the consumer level audio interface and not a real audio interface [which would be much better] but basically yes...

you would have one track in reaper to record midi onto...

and another track to record audio onto

on the audio track you would set the input to whatever you have the audio output from the piano hooked up with...

so if you have wired your head phones to Line in then use that.
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Old 08-13-2014, 01:19 PM   #5
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Ok yea forgot to tell that I don't have an audio interface. Im really noob and only recently read about audio interface, so I dont even know what it is atm.
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Old 08-14-2014, 04:53 AM   #6
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Ok update on my problem.

I have managed to record from Roland to a track in reaper. Midi notes seems alright there. So record to midi is ok.

I also inserted Another track where I chose input = stereo left/right, which gave me a wav track of the correct sounds from Roland.


But I still dont know how to reproduce correct sound from Roland when I play the track with midi notes from reaper.

When I play midi track I can set Another track with input of stereo left/right to play the sound from my Roland headphone jack, but the sound is only 1 standard sound.

Im too new to midi stuff that I have no idea where to edit what sound I want on my Roland piano on the midi track item.
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Old 08-14-2014, 05:51 AM   #7
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Hello Mizuki and welcome to these forums. You'll find many helpful people here and a lot of useful information.

You're getting there

The next step will be to tell the Roland what instrument to select for the MIDI:
-- Reaper has a plug-in called ReaControlMIDI which you can use
-- insert it onto the track, just like any other FX,
-- set the MIDI channel (at the top of the GUI), to be the same as the MIDI notes (switch to View Mode: Event List in the MIDI Editor to see what they are)
-- enable Bank / Program Select
-- check the Roland manual to see what banks and programs (may be called "voices" or another term) are available, find the one for the sound you want,
-- enter those numbers into the MSB and LSB boxes, when you complete them the MIDI control messages will be sent to the Roland
-- then try playing the MIDI
-- change the Program Number and play the MIDI again - you should hear a different sound

There's a Guide to ReaBanks here:
http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=71630

Now, it does get easier: once you have found the available Banks and programs in the Roland manual, you can create your own . ReaBank file (using any text Editor) and load that instead - then you can select the Bank and Program by name, no more messing about with numbers.

ReaControlMIDI is for real-time changes. If you want to progrma those messages into a MIDI clip, so that they are sent every time the clip is played, you can do that too.


Lots more details in the Reaper User Guide, sections 12.39, 12.44 and 12.19.
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Old 08-14-2014, 06:32 AM   #8
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Ok thx!

I will try this, I managed to open midi track in edit mode and go into event list view. And there I could add program change to a different channel. Not that I understand totally yet.

I will dive into that Joel sampson page and see if i can understand how I should set up thing.


But now Another problem arise. When I play my midi track and set midioutput to Roland piano I hear nothing. So I added Another track which recieves from my first midi track. But I cant hear anything from it. I only hear sound when I added a FXsound to it. But then I'm guessing that sound comes from FXsoftware sound instead of from Roland.

lol feels like im stuck again.

Also as soon as I add fx to my midi track with recorded notes I hear sound of course.
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Old 08-14-2014, 08:14 AM   #9
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Does the Roland indicate receipt of any MIDI at all?
Make sure that the MIDI is being sent on the right channel (you can also set it in the IO window when you select the Roland as the output device)

To get the Roland to play you should not put an instrument plug-in on the track.
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Old 08-14-2014, 01:10 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkStar View Post
Does the Roland indicate receipt of any MIDI at all?
Make sure that the MIDI is being sent on the right channel (you can also set it in the IO window when you select the Roland as the output device)

To get the Roland to play you should not put an instrument plug-in on the track.
Yes I Think midi is going correct to Roland cause:

I just now played my midi track, set output to Roland and channel to original and started audacity, and I can record correct notes and piano sound nr 1 on audacity.

I thought i could set a track in reaper and record like the one in audacity but seems I havent figured that out.

In audacity I can choose record device as line-in on rear panel. But on the track in reaper i cant find that option. I only see mono, stereo, midi and none in reaper.
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Old 08-14-2014, 01:23 PM   #11
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Ok have to retract my last post.

I can now record what I did in audacity in reaper now.

I inserted a track set input option to: stereo left+right

That apparently did set it to line-in jack on soundcard

The reason it didnt work was because I also have to activate button: record armed. If that is off the track will not take in any signals apparently even at stand by mode.
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Old 08-14-2014, 02:19 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkStar View Post
Does the Roland indicate receipt of any MIDI at all?
Make sure that the MIDI is being sent on the right channel (you can also set it in the IO window when you select the Roland as the output device)

To get the Roland to play you should not put an instrument plug-in on the track.
Hey thx for help!


I Went to the edit view by double clicking on the miditrack item and at index 1 added a program change event and put channel 1 and different value and i suddenly got an Array of sounds.

Dont really get what i should put in reacontrolmidi, bank, msb and lsb and program, But at least I can get some different sounds by changing value in program change event in the edit view window.

Thx again. I don't understand Everything but at least I get some sounds now and can record and edit and then record back to wave in reaper.
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Old 08-14-2014, 03:15 PM   #13
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Good Oh.

For the mysterious MSB and LSB numbers look in the Tone List for the Roland.

I've just found this document: RP401R_F-130R_MIDI_Imple_e01_W.pdf "MIDI Implementation and they are all listed in there. Here's a snapshot:

... Big pic: https://i.imgur.com/EVinrDe.png

So, for a Rock Piano the numbers to use are MSB 8, LSB 64 and Program 3; for Rich Strings they are 0, 71 and 50 and for an EP legend they are 121, 3 and 6.

With a bit of typing and sorting you could build these into a .ReaBank file. You can then load into ReaControlMIDI or into the MIDI Editor Program Change dialogue and never need to remember the numbers again!

If you do that, then please upload the .ReaBank file to this thread or to the Stash so that other RP-401 owners can use it too.
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Old 08-14-2014, 03:57 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkStar View Post
Good Oh.

For the mysterious MSB and LSB numbers look in the Tone List for the Roland.

I've just found this document: RP401R_F-130R_MIDI_Imple_e01_W.pdf "MIDI Implementation and they are all listed in there. Here's a snapshot:

... Big pic: https://i.imgur.com/EVinrDe.png

So, for a Rock Piano the numbers to use are MSB 8, LSB 64 and Program 3; for Rich Strings they are 0, 71 and 50 and for an EP legend they are 121, 3 and 6.

With a bit of typing and sorting you could build these into a .ReaBank file. You can then load into ReaControlMIDI or into the MIDI Editor Program Change dialogue and never need to remember the numbers again!

If you do that, then please upload the .ReaBank file to this thread or to the Stash so that other RP-401 owners can use it too.
Oh thx! This is perfect I have used some other link and got wrong piano so had no idea where anything was.

Yea if i manage to put togeter a bank file i do that.
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Old 08-14-2014, 04:10 PM   #15
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You're welcome.
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Old 08-14-2014, 04:24 PM   #16
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Back in the days I tended to just record the Bank/Program change from the outboard synth if possible. The trick was to have the synth set to a different sound to begin with and when the DAW records switch the synth to the desired sound. That was often much simpler than look up message numbers and conventions .

Not all synths send out their change messages per default, so you might need to change some setting in the Roland to do that.
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Old 08-15-2014, 03:45 AM   #17
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Back in the days I tended to just record the Bank/Program change from the outboard synth if possible. The trick was to have the synth set to a different sound to begin with and when the DAW records switch the synth to the desired sound. That was often much simpler than look up message numbers and conventions .

Not all synths send out their change messages per default, so you might need to change some setting in the Roland to do that.
Yea I that would be nice to figure out then I wouldn't need Control midi, as I Think I'm only going to have one sound on each track anyway.

But are there any experience with making ReaBank files.

For example loading a same file that have loaded dont trigger load at all. So when I updated the bank file I have to load Another file then reload the file I'm working with just to get the updated version.

My other thought is. ReaBank file seems to want syntax

Bank 0 68 Piano
0 551 Concert Piano
98 13 Morning Lite

Where 0 is MSB and 68 is LSB, I'm guessing MSB is bank, and LSB is patch.

This would give a bank named piano and undergroup listview called program in reaper interface with 2 sounds.

Problem is Roland has not sorted all sounds after bank. This would render a scattered bank/program setup. Well if there is Another way to build the Reabank with Another Group system would be nice to hear about.
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Old 08-15-2014, 04:47 AM   #18
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^^^^
That's why I said "with a bit of sorting" So, type them all up, or rip them out of the PDF and sort them into the various Banks. The GM.reabank file does have several banks in it, each with some programs ("tones" or "voices" or "Instruments")

Yes, the file does use a syntax - have a look at the supplied GM.reabank for the details. Or ...




MSB and LSB are combined to create the Bank Select number; MSB = Most Significant Byte and LSB = Least Significant Byte. 121 and 0 in the screenshot

The "patch" number is the Program Change number; for example 4 for Electric Piano 1.
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Old 08-15-2014, 05:34 AM   #19
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A ReaBank file can also be used directly in the Piano Roll editor, not only in ReaControlMIDI (which has this problem you describe, we had that lately in another thread). So you can also do it the old fashioned way, using small items at project start with just messages to set up MIDI devices.

For that you open a CC lane in the MIDI editor (in the area where the velocity lane lives) and switch it to "Bank/Program select". When you double click in that lane you get a dialog where you can type in all the necessary numbers for the messages. In that dialog you can load your ReaBank file and from there on use it to insert these changes by name instead of numbers.


Btw, Reaper can read (the bank/program part of) Cakewalk "Instrument definition" files in addition to its own ReaBank files. So if you can find one of those for your Roland device you can spare a lot of detective work and typing.
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Old 08-15-2014, 06:34 AM   #20
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Ok thx will look into those options also, as it seems, not sure, midi has to be initiated each time me choosing an instrument in midicontrol interface otherwise it seems to play instrument default which is piano of some sort. So putting a hard coded program change in the midi editor window might have to be done.

But my main issue is that I must put a msb and lsb number as a header in the reabank syntax. and then the number of "pc" column in Roland sheet will be listed as a listview in that bank. This mean I cant put all piano sounds under one listview option in the bank listview in midicontrol interface window.

Or actually would want to put whatever sound in what ever Group.

But of course this is luxuary issues.
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Old 08-15-2014, 06:59 AM   #21
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^^^^
I thought you were already doing that:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizuki View Post
Ok thx!

I will try this, I managed to open midi track in edit mode and go into event list view. And there I could add program change to a different channel. Not that I understand totally yet.
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Old 08-15-2014, 01:56 PM   #22
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Quote:
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^^^^
I thought you were already doing that:
Haha no it was too difficult. But im trying it now



I doubleclick midi item and go into midi editor and chose event view

Ok I want to use this sound

141 RubberSyn.Bs 121 2 40 (MSB=121 LSB=2 PC=40)


There I add 3 events:

- Program Control and put value of 39
- Control Change (CC), Volume LSB, Value:2
- Control Change (CC), Volyume MSB, Value:121

Ok this didnt work. First all events Went at top of that event window no matter where I right click insert action

Then the events all has value 0

I'm probably choosing wrong MSB and LSB events or wrong order?
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Old 08-15-2014, 02:09 PM   #23
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try the attached MIDI file

Attached Files
File Type: mid 121_2_40.MID (94 Bytes, 178 views)
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Old 08-15-2014, 03:13 PM   #24
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thx i tried that midi file but have to say something is wrong in those cc and pc commands cause i dont get correct sound. When i put the numbers in the interface of the midicontrol I get correct sounds though.

Well will try more later

now I know its supposed to be cc, cc and pc in that order at least
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Old 08-16-2014, 12:23 AM   #25
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But they do create different sounds, though - it's a start

Which ones? And how are they numbered in the Roland Tone List?

Sometimes the PC ranges are one adrift (1-128 rather than 0-127). Try:
121 - 0 - 0 (Piano 1 (PC =1 in the Tone List))
121 - 0 - 1 (Piano 2 (PC =2 in the Tone List))
121 - 0 - 2 (Piano 3 (PC =3 in the Tone List))
121 - 0 - 3 (Honky Tonk (PC =4 in the Tone List))
121 - 0 - 4 (E Piano 1 (PC =5 in the Tone List))

And, yes, you need to select the Bank first (with MSB and LSB), then you can pick a Program from that Bank with a PC message.
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Old 08-16-2014, 02:41 AM   #26
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wow thx this works now

Yea I knew I had to reduce 1 value from whats listed as PC in the tone list sheet.

So not sure what it was that Went wrong. But I have had times when I inserted a PC or CC and got wrong value when pressing ok. So I had to change it in the grid view by doubleclicking it.

Maybe its an update bug or something cause I also note that while I'm in the view "Piano roll" in the editor the cursor follows the midi track. But when I'm in the view "Event list" the cursor dont really follow at all. It can sometimes though but mostly not. Same with the main program. If midi editor window is activated the cursor on the main midi track dont go forward.



Also good to know commands in event list overrides any sounds chosen in the controlmidi interface. But if I change in realtime while having play button on, sounds will change by using the interface window. So changing it must be a midi command sending.

I also encountered Another newbie problem. I had my miditrack playing, and my other track listening on my stereo/left/right ie in-line jack on soundcard I guess, but had no sound. Seems reaper output device in prefs overrides windows output device.

I Think I come across almost all mistakes now
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Old 08-16-2014, 02:57 AM   #27
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Also when I add events in event view I get strange things


I add this:

CC - 00 Bank Select MSB
CC - 32 Bank Select LSB


Bank Select 14-bit (0/32) = 0
Bank Select 14-bit (36/64)= 0


Pressing alt-1 and alt-3 just to toggle note and back to event view just to trigger an update Changes these events to:

Bank Select MSB (0)
Bank Select LSB (32)

Values are Always 0 so I have to change them in the grid cell by dblclicking it.


Well thats no problem but shows I have no idea whats going on. If I'm doing it wrong or if its supposed to be like that.
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Old 08-16-2014, 10:45 AM   #28
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"commands in event list overrides any sounds chosen in the controlmidi interface!" Not really, it's is only because by playing the MIDI clip you would be sending the CC messages to the Roland. if you went back to ReaContolMIDI and set the values there then they would be sent "over-riding" the MIDI clip.

It all depends on what is sent last.

I suggest that you get a good MIDI Monitor (insertpizehere does one at http://www.thepiz.org/plugins/?p=midiMonitor and insert that on the track as an FX, then you can see exactly what is going to the Roland.

One sound suppressing the other? It may well be that only one application program can use the audio interface at a time. Perhaps you can load the "other track" into Reaper?

I'm not sure what you are doing in the Event List as I do not see those 14-bit Bank Select choices here. But, I find that the easiest way to add the messages is to use the Bank/Program Select controller lane, below the Piano roll. double-click at the desired position, enter the MSB, LSB and PC values and click [OK]. (Of course it is even quicker when I load the right .reaBank file and select the Bank and Program from there )
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Old 08-17-2014, 11:18 AM   #29
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Ok thx i will try that monitor


Yes these:

Bank Select 14-bit (0/32)


Were just the result in the event view mode when I added LSB and MSB


But they changed to:

Bank Select MSB (0)


After I forced an update by changing views
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Old 08-17-2014, 12:34 PM   #30
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OK, "Bank Select 14-bit (0/32)" is Reaper's way of using a single setting for the Bank Select MSB (CC#0) and LSB (CC#32) messages. Here, they stay is that format when I switch views.

As I said, i think that you would be better off, for the moment, using the Bank/Program Select controller lane. It's the fifth one of the drop-down (pop-up?) list.

Hang on in there. When you get it. you'll get it.
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Old 08-17-2014, 03:18 PM   #31
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OK, "Bank Select 14-bit (0/32)" is Reaper's way of using a single setting for the Bank Select MSB (CC#0) and LSB (CC#32) messages. Here, they stay is that format when I switch views.

As I said, i think that you would be better off, for the moment, using the Bank/Program Select controller lane. It's the fifth one of the drop-down (pop-up?) list.

Hang on in there. When you get it. you'll get it.
Ok will do that instead of the other hard coding. But thanks for all help.

I can now:

- Record into midi
- Edit midi tracker
- Play midi to piano
- Record back via input from piano to line-in, rendering a track in reaper in wave format.
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