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09-09-2012, 03:13 PM
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#1
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Norfolk UK
Posts: 136
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Stand alone preamps - Why?
I guess this is a really dumb question..but...
Small to medium even beautiful top of the range neve desks have preamps built in, I don't have a desk, yet but I have a Tascam interface with 8 preamps...so with this in mind....
when would there be a need for a stand alone preamp?, I read lots of articles on new and much loved vintage preamps but when is there a need for them and more to the point how could they be used when you already have a preamp in your chain???
As i say this is sure to be a dumb question
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09-09-2012, 03:52 PM
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#2
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Minneaplis
Posts: 3,317
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bloodbubble
I guess this is a really dumb question..but...
Small to medium even beautiful top of the range neve desks have preamps built in, I don't have a desk, yet but I have a Tascam interface with 8 preamps...so with this in mind....
when would there be a need for a stand alone preamp?, I read lots of articles on new and much loved vintage preamps but when is there a need for them and more to the point how could they be used when you already have a preamp in your chain???
As i say this is sure to be a dumb question
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The point is usually to bypass the built in preamps and use the standalone ones instead. if the preamp is colorful it might add something to the signal after your preamp, otherways I'm inclined to say yes, throwing a preamp on after your tascam preamp is a bit pointless.
Interfaces are awesome and you can make amazing stuff with a cheap interface with cheap preamps. The thousands and thousands of dollars you spend after that is kind of like chasing after that extra 10% of quality. I think that if you learn to mix with what you have really well and get pretty satisfied you should try to get once nice preamp and see what it does for you. check out golden age proejects and the black lion audio arteur. they are really nice cheap(ish) options.
To me it feels kind of like there's this roadmap/funnel that the market makes you head down and it is this...
- Cheap interface
- Decent interface (get rid of cheap one)
- Nice preamps (bypassing your interface's preamps)
- More nice preamps
- Dedicated a/d converter (getting rid of your decent interface)
- more nice preamps
- outboard compressor(s)
if I had to start now I'd do this:
- any interface with 8 channels, good drivers, and bypassible preamps.
- 500 series rack
- Two 500 series preamps
- one 500 series compressor
- one 500 series EQ
- dedicated a/d converters (apogee symphony, probably)
- sell the interface
- digital mixer
lots of other little things, but those would be the main landmarks for me. Unless I had a lot of money up front. Then I would get the symphony and a few 500 series pres right away.
that being said... it's tough to do unless you've got a lot of income. I've had to take a bunch of giant steps backwards. I just parted with my API a2d because I needed a car and I'll tell you something, it feels pretty gross to sell a preamp and a/d converter for $1500 to buy a $1,300 used car. I've thought that good gear is overpriced, but it kind of puts things into perspective: It really isn't (most of the time).
I've been thinking about it a bit more and I think this is the biz:
- interface
- api a2d
- universal audio 4710-d
- something cheap/good like a golden age project or BLA preamp.
- digital converter (sell interface)
then I'd invest in a system like 500 or x51
Last edited by pixeltarian; 09-09-2012 at 04:27 PM.
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09-09-2012, 03:58 PM
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#3
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Hungary
Posts: 3,129
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i totally agree with pixeltarian, but id say check the 51x system instead of the simple 500s system. more power / headroom, more modules, more possibilities.
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panda in the desert
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09-09-2012, 04:07 PM
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#4
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
Posts: 1,095
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Echo makes some cool audio interfaces with no pres for a decent price. Audiofire 12
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09-09-2012, 04:16 PM
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#5
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 431
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The coloring your new pre-amp can offer can only come from the coupling directly with the source, otherwise it just sux.
So even if you plug it directly into the tascam pres, it will still do its job.
Question is: will this make a sensible difference from what you have now?
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09-09-2012, 04:28 PM
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#6
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Minneaplis
Posts: 3,317
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shoyoninja
The coloring your new pre-amp can offer can only come from the coupling directly with the source, otherwise it just sux.
So even if you plug it directly into the tascam pres, it will still do its job.
Question is: will this make a sensible difference from what you have now?
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I agree with you.
That being said, I think the a2d will blow anyone away who is use to their stock pres/converters. it's like getting to hear what dedicated converters and nice pres will sound like without having spend 4 times as much as the a2d costs.
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09-09-2012, 04:37 PM
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#7
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 431
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Pixel, I dont doubt it...
But speaking of pre-amps, what do you guys think of the coloring in these vocals:
http://www.soundclick.com/player/sin...&q=hi&newref=1
Its a combination of mic+pre actually, is it acceptable in terms on sonority?
Its not the usuall transparent pre that I have on my N12. Which I am quite happy with, but Id like the opinion.
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09-09-2012, 04:42 PM
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#8
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Minneaplis
Posts: 3,317
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shoyoninja
Pixel, I dont doubt it...
But speaking of pre-amps, what do you guys think of the coloring in these vocals:
http://www.soundclick.com/player/sin...&q=hi&newref=1
Its a combination of mic+pre actually, is it acceptable in terms on sonority?
Its not the usuall transparent pre that I have on my N12. Which I am quite happy with, but Id like the opinion.
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I can answer that if you first describe any adjustments you made to the vox (EQ, comp, ect)
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09-09-2012, 05:33 PM
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#9
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 524
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I always hear the words "warm" and "color" and " Fat". Could someone post examples? I have an idea of how vocals might sound "warm". I mean at least I can imagine it in my head that of you have an artist in a multi million dollar studio, and he doesn't like the sound he gets with a solid state preamp, the engineer might make a conscious effort to use a tube preamp to "warm up" the vocals. I have heard the differences between a solid state and a tube preamp so I can kind of relate to the descriptor "warm". But what is it with this "color", "Fat", etc.. empty descriptors? Sorry if this seems off topic.
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09-09-2012, 06:06 PM
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#10
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 431
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Eq = Low cut (high pass on 150Hz to be more precise), high boost around 7 Khz, not more than 4db if I recall correctly.
Compressor = A bit to make it homogeneous. Low ratio. I used more fader-ride.
Enough reverb.
All these otb, reaper default plugins.
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09-09-2012, 09:38 PM
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#11
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,541
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bloodbubble
I guess this is a really dumb question..but...
Small to medium even beautiful top of the range neve desks have preamps built in, I don't have a desk, yet but I have a Tascam interface with 8 preamps...so with this in mind....
when would there be a need for a stand alone preamp?, I read lots of articles on new and much loved vintage preamps but when is there a need for them and more to the point how could they be used when you already have a preamp in your chain???
As i say this is sure to be a dumb question
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Lot's of reasons - the right tool for the job.
You may have mikes that need 60dB gain, and the rack you got only provide 55dB.
Some preamps have adjustable impedance to interface better and get the most out of a mike. Frequency response will get skewed if impedance is too far from optimum. Good mike, but preamp ruins it.
Sometimes you want preamp that also have FX send/return to insert a compressor to limit levels better, or a preamp which is a channelstrip and has compressor, eq and notch filters and gates.
And sometimes you just like the coloring a certain preamp does.
A few things I can think of.
__________________
-- Windows 11 Pro, i7-12700F 2.1GHz 32G, RME Digiface USB Audient ASP800 Lexicon MX200, Reaper 4.78 --
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09-10-2012, 01:35 AM
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#12
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Norfolk UK
Posts: 136
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thanks so much for the replies guys, big thanks to Pixeltarian..and i can relate, I just put my van off the road after a late night in the studio..:/
The Tascam was a means to an end and always felt like a stop gap, it has so many preamps in one audio interface and line inputs for the price. Ive actually been able to record the whole band live with it using lots of mics, di boxes and a little M-audio preamp I have.. and the results are pretty good.
But now i feel like I want a mixing desk, hence the questions..but was worried about spending a good chunk of cash on a desk then being tied to its convertors and/or preamps.
Pixeltarian - i shall read and research through your post more tonight when i have more time as I want to digest it properly .. thanks again, really kinda the information i wanted to get.
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09-10-2012, 03:18 AM
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#13
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Minneaplis
Posts: 3,317
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bloodbubble
thanks so much for the replies guys, big thanks to Pixeltarian..and i can relate, I just put my van off the road after a late night in the studio..:/
The Tascam was a means to an end and always felt like a stop gap, it has so many preamps in one audio interface and line inputs for the price. Ive actually been able to record the whole band live with it using lots of mics, di boxes and a little M-audio preamp I have.. and the results are pretty good.
But now i feel like I want a mixing desk, hence the questions..but was worried about spending a good chunk of cash on a desk then being tied to its convertors and/or preamps.
Pixeltarian - i shall read and research through your post more tonight when i have more time as I want to digest it properly .. thanks again, really kinda the information i wanted to get.
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you should check and see if the presonus studiolive consoles have by-passable pres. I think they do, but it's 4am and I'm too tired/lazy to go look at the specs.
I haven't really loved presonus as a company (mostly because their stuff is a fuzz better than behringer/fostex/samson/etc, but they price their stuff like it's 3 times better). That being said, I've been slowly warming up to some of their gear lately (namely the studiolive mixers). I think a studiolive digital mixer would be worth it just for the easy routing and such.
Also if you get something that is expandable, keep your eyes peeled for the behringer ada8200 that is coming out soon. It should be a nice cheap way to add more i/o (if you're into having lots of inputs and outputs).
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09-11-2012, 04:12 AM
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#14
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 431
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Hey guys, since the main question was answered I would like to know about this pre/mic combination...
For better comparision:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/defa...bandID=1255944
Silent Lucidity was done using the setup I am curious about, all other songs using the N12 pres.
Processing is basicly the same I described above on all of them.
tnx!
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09-12-2012, 09:27 AM
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#15
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: London UK
Posts: 125
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This is fairly straight forward, variation on recorded tone and possibly more gain. In some cases it is slight and in others more obvious.
SafeandSound Mastering
Last edited by SafeandSound; 10-08-2013 at 12:47 PM.
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09-12-2012, 10:00 AM
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#16
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 623
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I personally highly recommend an out board pre-amp over what we generally find in prosumer grade interfaces and mixers. Depending on what you're looking for, the differences are far greater (better) than 10% (no offense to another post here). I use a Peavey VMP2 that is one of the better units you can get for vox, bass and guitars. I've owned a few decent mixing boards with great preamps, but a good out board pre-amp is a palm to the head no brainer when listening to A/B recordings.
There are m-a-n-y to choose from and hard to go wrong with a lot of those choices. If you are so inclined, read all you can at various forums and try to sample some pre-amps at your local music store. A really good pre-amp to me is one of the best purchases one can make to "leap" up the quality recording food chain.
BTW - Should you go the route I chose with Peavey, you can find them on ebay usually for around $800. If you get one, use the "balanced" outs for everything - regardless of what some people suggest. Smooth and full of rich sheen. Love mine!
All the best to you!
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09-12-2012, 04:13 PM
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#17
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ObiK
Echo makes some cool audio interfaces with no pres for a decent price. Audiofire 12
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Yup. I have their audiofire 4 and am close to outgrowing it. The built in preamps are good, but I also have an FMR RNP preamp which is great. Eventually, I'll upgrade to the audiofire 12. It's a great very stable interface with tons of I/O. My buddy uses two in his studio.
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