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10-13-2014, 12:43 PM
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#1
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Norway
Posts: 7,318
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Vocal fx basics
Hi folks!
What do you consider as basic vocal fx paths to go?
Do you tend to do the same for very project,
or do you do completely different things?
Is it like
x amount of reverb
y amount of 1/8 delay
z amount of widening
for every project?
Have you done something far out that worked for you?
__________________
Reaper x64, win 11
Composer, text-writer, producer
Bandcamp
Last edited by G-Sun; 10-15-2014 at 12:05 AM.
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10-13-2014, 01:10 PM
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#2
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Jazz City
Posts: 5,065
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Step 1 is ALWAYS compression - envisioning the space and staging of the main voice. Top end is second. Everything else depends on that. Admittedly most of the time voclas require some sort of reverb or delay, but totally in the context of the tune. No rules
__________________
Windows 10x64 | AMD Ryzen 3700X | ATI FirePro 2100 | Marian Seraph AD2, 4.3.8 | Yamaha Steinberg MR816x
"If I can hear well, then everything I do is right" (Allen Sides)
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10-13-2014, 01:21 PM
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#3
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Asheville NC
Posts: 1,335
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I go de-esser->hi pass->comp->eq most of the time. I also usually use a little slapback echo and/or plate reverb too.
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10-13-2014, 01:55 PM
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#4
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Southern California
Posts: 642
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I find a good starting point is:
Preamp with a little bit of coloration (Lil Deveil)
One, sometimes two compressors on the way in (1176 and/or LA2A style)
Maybe an EQ if the bright & Low cut filters on the preamp aren't what I want
Tape emulation (Portico 542)
I try and get the reverb from the room.
If that's not good enough I reamp the vocal and record reverb in a stairwell or bathroom or something
If I need a delay effect I reamp to a pedal (Strymon El Capistan) during he Mix along with any associated EQ needs
No VSTs here
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10-13-2014, 02:15 PM
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#5
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: near Memphis, TN
Posts: 531
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G-Sun,
Do you mean Processing or Effects?
Processing:
Of course it always depends on the songs... but generally I'm a fan of subtle color, so I'll look to tubes and tape for immediate answers. LA2A type & Kramer MPX type. Something along those lines... whatever seems like it will be appropriate. EQ... a touch of 10K shelf boost on the console. Maybe some gentle presence boost if needed (around 3K). I will do something like that on most of the vocals. It's not a template though. I just pull those tools when I feel that they are needed. Sometimes tubes are too heavy though... it depends on the voice. 1176 into a LA2A is a pretty classic chain, in case you're looking for something like that.
Effects:
For effects, I have 3 Aux Busses that I enjoy regularly for Vocals. These I have saved in Reaper as a TRACK TEMPLATE.
>rich plate reverb
>smooth subtle room reverb
>Reaper's Delay - preset setting "Fattener" (It gets used often.)
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10-14-2014, 06:30 AM
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#6
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Norway
Posts: 7,318
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Thanks!
Yes, I was thinking more effects.
But as you say, it's not independent of eq and compression.
__________________
Reaper x64, win 11
Composer, text-writer, producer
Bandcamp
Last edited by G-Sun; 10-14-2014 at 09:05 AM.
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10-14-2014, 08:14 AM
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#7
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: near Memphis, TN
Posts: 531
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I've tried a somewhat traditional approach to using reverbs - that is, using three of them total: short, mid, long. From what I've read this is inteded for the entire mix though... to create some gel/glue.
I've found that I get too confused. Maybe I should work harder at that.
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10-14-2014, 10:37 AM
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#8
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: nyc
Posts: 35
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Compress first, THEN EQ? Is this common? What's the reason for this? Have I been doing it wrong?
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10-14-2014, 10:44 AM
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#9
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Jazz City
Posts: 5,065
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimFichs
Compress first, THEN EQ? Is this common? What's the reason for this? Have I been doing it wrong?
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All good
__________________
Windows 10x64 | AMD Ryzen 3700X | ATI FirePro 2100 | Marian Seraph AD2, 4.3.8 | Yamaha Steinberg MR816x
"If I can hear well, then everything I do is right" (Allen Sides)
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10-14-2014, 11:07 AM
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#10
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Lincoln, UK
Posts: 7,924
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimFichs
Compress first, THEN EQ? Is this common? What's the reason for this? Have I been doing it wrong?
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Depends on what you want to compress.
Personally I like to at least get a subsonic filter in front of the compressor, depending of course on how close the vocalist might get to the mic.
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10-14-2014, 11:58 AM
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#11
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Asheville NC
Posts: 1,335
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Yeah, I generally do subtractive Eq before a compressor, then add another afterwards if I'm going to boost anything.
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10-14-2014, 02:29 PM
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#12
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Jazz City
Posts: 5,065
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But generally a compressor interacts so much in the spectral domain as well, that I often rather reach for a certain compressor first than for EQ. The right compressor will do so much: clean up or dirty a track, influence the front-back positioning, change the timing etc.. 99% of the time it's the starting point from where to "build" the vocal sound (given you know why you've used that mic and not a different one, not to mention the preamp).
The answer to "reverb or delay" and then "which one" is dictated by the density, the tempo and the aesthetics of the song IMO.
And if you need to EQ more than 2 dB +/-, it's been the wrong mic.
__________________
Windows 10x64 | AMD Ryzen 3700X | ATI FirePro 2100 | Marian Seraph AD2, 4.3.8 | Yamaha Steinberg MR816x
"If I can hear well, then everything I do is right" (Allen Sides)
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10-15-2014, 12:06 AM
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#13
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Norway
Posts: 7,318
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beingmf
And if you need to EQ more than 2 dB +/-, it's been the wrong mic.
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Or, wrong room
__________________
Reaper x64, win 11
Composer, text-writer, producer
Bandcamp
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10-17-2014, 12:27 AM
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#14
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 2,629
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swamp Ape
I go de-esser->hi pass->comp->eq most of the time.
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Same here, but I have the hi-pass first, then de-ess. I don't think it makes much difference though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimFichs
Compress first, THEN EQ? Is this common? What's the reason for this? Have I been doing it wrong?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swamp Ape
Yeah, I generally do subtractive Eq before a compressor, then add another afterwards if I'm going to boost anything.
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My take on this is that I want to 'clean-up' first (roll-of lows and de-ess) before hitting the compressor. I think you get a better response from the comp that way as it won't react to signals you don't want in there anyway. I'm pretty sure I picked that up from some youtube interviews with famous engineers
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10-17-2014, 03:56 AM
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#15
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Norway
Posts: 7,318
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I almost never deess.
Maybe something about Norwegian vs. English language.
__________________
Reaper x64, win 11
Composer, text-writer, producer
Bandcamp
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10-17-2014, 04:35 AM
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#16
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Jazz City
Posts: 5,065
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De-esser? Never. I rather change the vocalist's position, technique or the mic.
__________________
Windows 10x64 | AMD Ryzen 3700X | ATI FirePro 2100 | Marian Seraph AD2, 4.3.8 | Yamaha Steinberg MR816x
"If I can hear well, then everything I do is right" (Allen Sides)
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10-17-2014, 06:07 AM
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#17
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Stratford upon Avon UK
Posts: 1,291
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Still looking for a de-esser that actually works. I use the old technique of head turning and/or putting my hand before my mouth on hard esses and plosives. Works as well as anything elssssssssssssssssssssssse.
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10-17-2014, 06:42 AM
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#18
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 21,551
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I will diverge from some here. I never just throw compression on vocals first. I only use compression early for certain genres like rap, things that are more meant to be in your face. I love the sound of a well recorded vocal and it sounds much better to me natural in many cases. I tend to automate first, maybe add a touch of compression later, then tweak the automation.
Verb: It depends. Sometimes plate, sometimes halls. Tempo dependent but I usually go with really long pre-delay times. And put a de-esser before the verb return.
Delay: I usually try to avoid the cookie cutter vocal delays synced to the beat because real ambiance doesn't do that.
De-Essing: Like Kenny said, take the time to do it manually. It sounds much better.
I actually kinda dislike the compression crutch. Things sound much better to me not squashed with compressors on every track, like they sounded 15 years ago when nobody had 40 compressors.
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10-17-2014, 11:30 AM
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#20
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Jazz City
Posts: 5,065
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence
I will diverge from some here. I never just throw compression on vocals first. I only use compression early for certain genres like rap, things that are more meant to be in your face.
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It's sooo much depending on the compresssor you use. I for instance use an 1176 for pushing the vocals back a tad. Slower attack/faster release and/or different gear will smack the voice up front, that's for sure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence
Delay: I usually try to avoid the cookie cutter vocal delays synced to the beat because real ambiance doesn't do that.
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Definitely! ) So cheesy, haha!
__________________
Windows 10x64 | AMD Ryzen 3700X | ATI FirePro 2100 | Marian Seraph AD2, 4.3.8 | Yamaha Steinberg MR816x
"If I can hear well, then everything I do is right" (Allen Sides)
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10-17-2014, 11:40 AM
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#21
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 453
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimFichs
Compress first, THEN EQ? Is this common? What's the reason for this? Have I been doing it wrong?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by planetnine
Depends on what you want to compress.
Personally I like to at least get a subsonic filter in front of the compressor, depending of course on how close the vocalist might get to the mic.
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I usually put the EQ first, so that low bass doesn't unnecessarily cause compression.
Depends on the vocalist. Some has so little low content it doesn't matter.
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I'll usually have reverb. I might have widening, but as often that is where backup vocals come in.
Anything beyond EQ, Comp, and reverb, that's totally dependent on the song.
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10-17-2014, 11:55 AM
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#22
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 21,551
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beingmf
It's sooo much depending on the compresssor you use. I for instance use an 1176 for pushing the vocals back a tad. Slower attack/faster release and/or different gear will smack the voice up front, that's for sure.
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Yeah, certain styles call for compression right at the start. Having said that, if you're getting tracks from somebody else you really have to listen to them first. Maybe they had 4db of real 1176 compression on them on the input chain already.
That's why (without really first listening anyway) the mix by the numbers thing sometimes doesn't work so well. I compress lead vocals with a TLA-50 a little on the way in so they often don't need much in post, for the genres I do anyway. Rap / Hip-Hop is a different animal. I'll squash the hell out of a rap vocal.
But you guys mostly do rock so yeah... that's the sound of modern rock.
Last edited by Lawrence; 10-17-2014 at 12:03 PM.
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10-17-2014, 02:50 PM
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#23
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Asheville NC
Posts: 1,335
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barrymk
Still looking for a de-esser that actually works. I use the old technique of head turning and/or putting my hand before my mouth on hard esses and plosives. Works as well as anything elssssssssssssssssssssssse.
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My de-esser is a combo of reaEq and reaComp, with a hi-pass and high shelf around 5k (for my voice), sending to channels 3 and 4. Then reacomp, set to receive aux input, squashing however much is needed and then sending back to channels 1 and 2. I'll often go in and manually automate out the esses too by about 3 db - I find this combo to be the most natural and transparent.
I think these are both Kenny Gioia tricks.
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10-18-2014, 05:32 AM
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#24
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Stratford upon Avon UK
Posts: 1,291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by technogremlin
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Thanks but that's one that didn't work for me. Coid just be me of course.
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10-18-2014, 04:17 PM
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#25
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Kalispell
Posts: 14,745
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Sun
I almost never deess.
Maybe something about Norwegian vs. English language.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beingmf
De-esser? Never. I rather change the vocalist's position, technique or the mic.
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I don't know, is DeEssing as important now days.
Back in the old days it was pretty important for vinyl records but that was the nature of cutting vinyl. Many of my clients back in those days used Capitol Records for their mastering and pressing so I had more than a couple discussions with their mastering engineers concerning this. Ssssss's were a major issue with vinyl and it wasn't just the independents but also included their own in house mixes. They would fix them but they were kind enough to let the producers and engineers know before doing so.
Of course with vinyl it was a physical problem which we don't have with today's media, or do we? Is there something in the digital realm where ssss's can distort even if they're below the 0.0db mark.
I can imagine if the ssss's are pretty bad and you've got a tight compression on them, they might sound rather unnatural. I have to admit, even today I'm pretty careful with the ssss's, I usually just go through and check them out. When I find something questionable I usually just lower it with a volume or take envelope (almost always a take envelope now days).
Food for thought.
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10-18-2014, 04:33 PM
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#26
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 21,551
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Things that compound it: Close micing, compression, poor vocal or positioning technique, bright mics, bright reverbs.
What sounds ok during tracking sounds much worse once two days later when you slam it with 6+db of compression ... so yeah, just reduce it. That's kinda part of what mixing is, reducing or treating frequencies that annoy you whether that's sibilance or that annoying nasal sound you get on some vocals when untrained people sing really loud or anything else really.
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10-19-2014, 06:32 AM
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#27
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 5,207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barrymk
Still looking for a de-esser that actually works. I use the old technique of head turning and/or putting my hand before my mouth on hard esses and plosives. Works as well as anything elssssssssssssssssssssssse.
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Give Fabfilter DS a try
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10-19-2014, 06:33 AM
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#28
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Stratford upon Avon UK
Posts: 1,291
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Thanks Fergler I will.
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10-19-2014, 10:40 AM
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#29
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Jazz City
Posts: 5,065
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod
I don't know, is DeEssing as important now days.
Back in the old days it was pretty important for vinyl records but that was the nature of cutting vinyl. Many of my clients back in those days used Capitol Records for their mastering and pressing so I had more than a couple discussions with their mastering engineers concerning this. Ssssss's were a major issue with vinyl and it wasn't just the independents but also included their own in house mixes. They would fix them but they were kind enough to let the producers and engineers know before doing so.
Of course with vinyl it was a physical problem which we don't have with today's media, or do we? Is there something in the digital realm where ssss's can distort even if they're below the 0.0db mark.
I can imagine if the ssss's are pretty bad and you've got a tight compression on them, they might sound rather unnatural. I have to admit, even today I'm pretty careful with the ssss's, I usually just go through and check them out. When I find something questionable I usually just lower it with a volume or take envelope (almost always a take envelope now days).
Food for thought.
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All valid points, Tod! As for the vinyl mastering process, the mixer nowadays doesn't have to take care of it since a de-esser is a standard in the vinyl mastering chain (like a low cut and a mono crossover below 120Hz give or take). IMVHO "mixing" - as opposed to "mastering" - shouldn't have too many technical aspects, since it's the creative part that makes brings the music to life.
And for digital media it's just "sh*t in, sh*t out".
As for compression in the mix itself: the shorter the release, the more pronounced the "ssss" become, obviously. That said, if you absolutely want, or need, that in-yer-face sound, you HAVE to take care of it during the recording. Headphone bleed falls in the same category, btw. You might ruin the whole mix if every snare hit is aligned with that annoying telephone frequency that is audible through the cans of the deaf vocalist
In Reaper, IMO it's so simple to just draw a volume envelope if an "sss" is too dominant. My point with de-essers is this: I don't like thin, overprocessed vocals, because they never glue with (my) mixes. I want "body" and "fullness", regardless of gender timbre. Now if I cut that subtle, defined veil of "air" present in the actual recording (and this is what every de-esser will do - just listen to the sidechain signal), I'd have to compensate with boosting the top end. From that moment on, the signal becomes unnatural. De-essers are dynamic while EQ's are static. And we are dealing with the human voice - a sound which we all know in all its nuances, thus boosting something which wasn't there in the first place will sound like a "fancy effect". I don't know why I would want this in an otherwise "natural" sounding context.
__________________
Windows 10x64 | AMD Ryzen 3700X | ATI FirePro 2100 | Marian Seraph AD2, 4.3.8 | Yamaha Steinberg MR816x
"If I can hear well, then everything I do is right" (Allen Sides)
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10-20-2014, 02:53 AM
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#30
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 2,629
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barrymk
Thanks but that's one that didn't work for me. Coid just be me of course.
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I tested it while selecting freeware options, did put it on several vocal tracks (that where pretty good to begin with) and it works like a charm here. Does exactly and transparently what I need it to do. But that is subjective of course
Didi you look at the other freeware alternative, Spitfish. Many people seem to have good results with that one. I simply liked LISP better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod
I don't know, is DeEssing as important now days.
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Maybe not from a 'clean-up' perspective, if you have a good singer/mike/room etc. But as a mixing tool it is also pretty useful. Several professional engineers use de-essing to tame aggressive cymbals in a mix. Of course de-essing is actually a form of narrow-band compression, so other solutions might work as well. Including for actual de-essing
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10-20-2014, 08:08 AM
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#31
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Stratford upon Avon UK
Posts: 1,291
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As a singer I have a pretty aggressive set of plosives and esses. I tend nowadays to work on mic technique together with manual ducking.
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10-20-2014, 11:00 AM
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#32
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Evansville, IN
Posts: 70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by technogremlin
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Sweet. I'm gonna check it out.
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10-21-2014, 12:14 PM
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#33
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 22,754
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(blush) recently bought JJP shizzle on special from waves.
Some hilarious possibilities if you crank those FX or use the drum one on vox and the guitar one on drums!
But generally I just track off either my Joemeek S1 or GAP73 and add anything else later.
I hate committing to anything at the recording stage other than a good, basic, in-tune signal
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10-23-2014, 02:13 AM
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#34
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 55
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For what it's worth , this works for me
EQ - remove sub bass frequencies only
Compression - Just to smooth it out . I tend to move a lot when I sing
Then depending on the song
EQ
Reverb and or delay
Also I always double track the vocals - always a 2nd recording never a copy. I always leave this track dry and low in the mix, occasional boost for choruses
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10-23-2014, 07:57 AM
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#35
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Evansville, IN
Posts: 70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J9mm
Also I always double track the vocals - always a 2nd recording never a copy. I always leave this track dry and low in the mix, occasional boost for choruses
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I find this interesting and I think I may just give it a try. Thanks for the tip.
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10-23-2014, 08:23 AM
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#36
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Whales, UK
Posts: 6,009
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plus 1 on LISP Deesser - its detector is not level dependant (comparative i think) so it can be anywhere in your chain and or you can mess with other things in your chain and the deessing remains consistant.
with overdubs/harmonies which can build alot of essing...i have doubled it up to good effect and always works transparantly.
vocal chains are material and mic dependant but my approach is to correct/kill the bad stuff with EQ before any other processing - compression/sweetening Eq/deess/delay/verb etc.
short room verb and short delays are good ones for helping things sit.
consider a cheap ribbon mic too. save alot of deessing and harshness eqing compared to your LDCs
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10-23-2014, 10:15 AM
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#37
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 22,754
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A way to cheat on getting BVs to meld.
Only the lead vocal sings the plosives esses etc.
That way you avoid what I call the popcorn cooking effect every time there is a word in the lyric with a hard or a "wet" sound at the beginning
EG: Please Please Me.
Or as it often sounds P-P-Please P-P-Please me.....
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10-23-2014, 12:17 PM
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#38
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,371
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Sun
Or, wrong room
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Or you are simply trying to do something other than faithfully reproduce the original mic'd sound.
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10-24-2014, 01:51 AM
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#39
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Stratford upon Avon UK
Posts: 1,291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc
A way to cheat on getting BVs to meld.
Only the lead vocal sings the plosives esses etc.
That way you avoid what I call the popcorn cooking effect every time there is a word in the lyric with a hard or a "wet" sound at the beginning
EG: Please Please Me.
Or as it often sounds P-P-Please P-P-Please me.....
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Absolutely essential IMHO when tracking doubling, choruses and choir, excellent p p p p point.
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