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12-02-2014, 09:22 AM
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#1
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 5,646
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Justin's views on iLok
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Salamat
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12-02-2014, 09:34 AM
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#2
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Berlin
Posts: 11,817
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Hits home quite well. iLok adds cost and risk through an added point of failure.
We pick our ways, but it's rather unlikely anyone will share actual data on what the resulting gains or losses in business were. Software vendors certainly do not share that sort of data. Burned customers do, see the Pace/iLok clusterfuck a while back.
Yeah I avoid iLoks whenever possible, and it has become much easier to avoid it alltogether. Plus, our forum culture here promotes rewarding developers for their efforts. I like that.
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12-02-2014, 09:36 AM
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#3
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Europe
Posts: 153
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Justin is one of those people who "get it".
In Brandon's article, he (Brandon) wrote, "I'm told plugin companies that utilize iLok tend to suffer less from piracy."
In turn, they suffer from overall lower sales, or so I speculate. I have never, and will never, buy a piece of software that uses a hardware dongle. Then again, I'm a hobbyist and have all the choice in the world. Professional users may have other aspects to consider in addition.
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12-02-2014, 11:13 AM
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#4
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Geneseo, IL
Posts: 170
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Never ever will I iLok.
Hence Celemony over Antares.
Duff
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12-02-2014, 11:18 AM
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#5
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Banned
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 985
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Pro Tools was my first and last iLok experience !
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12-02-2014, 11:19 AM
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#6
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Seattle
Posts: 5,635
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"From a customer service point of view, we'd rather have 10 non-paying users use REAPER illegally than ever have a single paid customer be unable to use it."
That is a company I'd go out of my way to do business with.
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12-02-2014, 11:21 AM
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#7
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: UK
Posts: 124
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How did it ever start?
I'm curious as to how iLok was ever accepted in the first place.
Was it that, way back, some software was only available with iLok, and there were no alternatives (Pro Tools?)
And then people with iLoks had nothing to lose by buying other iLok software?
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12-02-2014, 11:29 AM
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#8
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: New York
Posts: 387
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In all fairness, I-lok has a great benefit to users: it protects the resale value of the products bought. I can easily re-sell an I-lok protected plugin, but I would have trouble getting one dollar for FabFilter Q2. Not good for developers and not good for people who have invested their money on a product that loses its value as soon as you pay for it.
Not saying I-lok is great, just saying that this argument has many angles...
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12-02-2014, 12:07 PM
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#9
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 5,646
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irvin
In all fairness, I-lok has a great benefit to users: it protects the resale value of the products bought. I can easily re-sell an I-lok protected plugin, but I would have trouble getting one dollar for FabFilter Q2. Not good for developers and not good for people who have invested their money on a product that loses its value as soon as you pay for
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And why is that ?
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Salamat
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12-02-2014, 12:14 PM
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#10
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Europe
Posts: 153
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I've re-sold software licenses of products that didn't come with a hardware dongle. Quite a few companies in the audio software industry offer license transfers, often even at no cost (iLok charges for transfers).
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12-02-2014, 12:21 PM
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#11
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29,260
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Quote:
If I had to blame someone, I'd blame everyone involved: the dongle manufacturer, the plugin developer, and the user who bought the plugin.
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I'm a fan of ^this statement of Justin's. If enough people don't buy into it, it'll stop immediately.
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Music is what feelings sound like.
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12-02-2014, 12:26 PM
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#12
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,221
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software license re-sales matter less when the software is reasonably priced to begin with
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12-02-2014, 12:30 PM
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#13
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Minneaplis
Posts: 3,317
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Funny, I just installed my iLok and Waves drivers. Now that waves ditched iLok I need TWO dongles. Isn't that cool? It's so cool. I now need a usb hub to run all my plugins. I'm trying to be a good person. I just reformatted my computer and all my plugins are legit and paid for. Hardware keys are so annoying. I'd rather just get the cracked version and say "No see? I have a license. I just didn't want to deal with your security bullshit." the iLok drivers are about 180MB. WTF do they need 180 MB of space for when a plugin itself is like 8MB?!
What plugins do I have an iLok and Waves dongle for you ask?
VEQ-1
VEQ-2
Steven Slate Trigger
Eventide UltraChannel
Yes. Two usb license dongles for 4 plugins.
Last edited by pixeltarian; 12-02-2014 at 12:41 PM.
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12-02-2014, 12:50 PM
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#14
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29,260
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Quote:
I'd rather just get the cracked version and say "No see? I have a license.
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Many years ago I did just that, bought a the box retail version of a product with my hard earned dollars and installed the cracked version because the retail version crashed more and worked less efficiently. Go figure. I hate to say that but it was 100% true and a dongled product but not PT, something else.
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Music is what feelings sound like.
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12-02-2014, 12:56 PM
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#15
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Europe
Posts: 153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nym
software license re-sales matter less when the software is reasonably priced to begin with
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Good point.
I use these "rules" for my own audio stuff purchases:
- If the developer offers license transfers (free or reasonably priced), I'll buy their stuff at regular prices if I want something right away. I don't typically plan to resell stuff, but I like the option and have made use of it a couple times when something didn't work out for me or I needed the money.
- If a developer doesn't offer license transfers, I only buy their stuff when it is 50%+ off.
- I don't buy anything with hardware dongles.
Well, mileage may vary, but for me this works.
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12-02-2014, 01:04 PM
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#16
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Lincoln, UK
Posts: 7,924
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mivo
I've re-sold software licenses of products that didn't come with a hardware dongle. Quite a few companies in the audio software industry offer license transfers, often even at no cost (iLok charges for transfers).
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In the EU, the suppliers distribution rights end at the initial sale, you are free to transfer the licence as you wish. In theory this means that they aren't allowed to charge for licence transfers, I'd like to see someone take a vendor to task for this.
>
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12-02-2014, 01:05 PM
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#17
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 9,090
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pixeltarian
Funny, I just installed my iLok and Waves drivers. Now that waves ditched iLok I need TWO dongles. I
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Waves does not require any dongle anymore. And if you move from computer to computer, if they are online, you can upload and redownload licenses easily with no dongle ever. I have other issues with Waves plugins and have replaced them all now (say no to "WUP"...), but they did a good thing ditching the dongle.
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The Sounds of the Hear and Now.
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12-02-2014, 01:10 PM
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#18
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Banned
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Oud West, NL
Posts: 2,335
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pixeltarian
Hardware keys are so annoying. I'd rather just get the cracked version and say "No see? I have a license. I just didn't want to deal with your security bullshit."
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Until recently, I was a real hardass about piracy. Still don't use any cracked, but the more I've looked into this issue -- and the more I've had to pass on using various software because I no longer will use dongles or iLok -- well, my position has softened considerably. This is a huge move for me, but the more I've studied the issue the more I've become completely fed up with these software makers, their schemes, licensings and annoyances. We read about this stuff all the time, so I'm sick of even hearing about it.
They might be 'protecting' their precious software, but they don't get my business or my respect either. They need to drop this nonsense and change.
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12-02-2014, 01:14 PM
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#19
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Norway
Posts: 7,318
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Interesting read.
Thanks!
Now, I don't really blame companies who want to protect their products. If that make more people pay for them, and thus make the company able to develop more good plugins, customers benefit from this.
But, I don't have any iLok
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Reaper x64, win 11
Composer, text-writer, producer
Bandcamp
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12-02-2014, 01:15 PM
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#20
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 21,551
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Everything said above makes sense except for one thing, if the developers using iLok were not profiting and/or saw a real avenue for more profit from not using it, they wouldn't be using it.
Any speculation about how much more money they'd make if they stopped using it is just that, speculation, not based on any factual data that I've ever seen. It's more... "Do what I say and you'll make more money."... without any real factual or applicable case study backing that up. Most of them seem to be clearly of the mind that the sales they lose are more than made up by the sales they gain from people who actually can't get a crack.
In other words, just because many vendors do well without iLok doesn't actually mean vendor A would do even better sales without iLok. It's an assumption, not a fact, especially for high ticket items.
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12-02-2014, 01:37 PM
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#21
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Europe
Posts: 153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by planetnine
In the EU, the suppliers distribution rights end at the initial sale, you are free to transfer the licence as you wish. In theory this means that they aren't allowed to charge for licence transfers, I'd like to see someone take a vendor to task for this.
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It's not a regulation yet (the part where the vendor has to provide ways and means to transfer a license), so you'd have to take a vendor to court, and then probably go through all instances. It's not worth it over a $100 plugin or a $500 DAW. That's the trouble with this. There a German proverb that applies here: "Being in the right isn't the same as getting your right."
There are also loopholes, like Valve's Steam service. They changed the EULA to a "Subscriber's Agreement", and customers no longer buy licenses, but infinitely rent the software. This could probably be challenged in a court, but most end users don't have the means.
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12-02-2014, 01:38 PM
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#22
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Location
Posts: 5,559
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence
Everything said above makes sense except for one thing, if the developers using iLok were not profiting and/or saw a real avenue for more profit from not using it, they wouldn't be using it.
Any speculation about how much more money they'd make if they stopped using it is just that, speculation, not based on any factual data that I've ever seen. It's more... "Do what I say and you'll make more money."... without any real factual or applicable case study backing that up. Most of them seem to be clearly of the mind that the sales they lose are more than made up by the sales they gain from people who actually can't get a crack.
In other words, just because many vendors do well without iLok doesn't actually mean vendor A would do even better sales without iLok. It's an assumption, not a fact, especially for high ticket items.
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But same goes for some vendors who use iLok, because they often didn't even try to confirm or falsify their assumption that they make more money with (or without) this protection in the first place. They just started selling their product, assuming to make more money with iLok than without.
-Data
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12-02-2014, 01:52 PM
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#23
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Europe
Posts: 153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence
Everything said above makes sense except for one thing, if the developers using iLok were not profiting and/or saw a real avenue for more profit from not using it, they wouldn't be using it.
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The first part assumes that companies always make economically sound decisions. Taking a look at Avid's current state, for example, I don't share that view. That they believe that using iLok works for them, yes, no doubt about that. Many failed businesses once believed that their decisions were spot on. I worked for one of those during the dot.com boom and subsequent crash.
Look at Image-Line and FL Studio: No hardware dongles, and the software is heavily pirated. Possibly as a result, FL Studio is also hugely popular. Would it be as popular, well-known, and no doubt well-selling if it could not be pirated easily? We don't know that, but my guess is that piracy is, at least in this case, not such a bad thing for the company.
How many companies are there who went from selling a product without dongle to selling the same product with dongle, and reported credible data? Or vice versa? Credibility here would be a problem, though, since most companies like to stress how their new approach is so much more successful than their previous one.
There's software I'd have bought if it hadn't required iLok or another form of ankle shackles for paying customers who are apparently not trustworthy in the company's eyes. Of course, this is off-set by people who pirate un-dongled stuff that they might have otherwise bought. What the ratio here is, is up to everyone's guess.
Most of us here paid for Reaper even though we weren't forced to do it, so this community and their moral compass or personal honor system may not be representative, but I don't know, Justin and his people aren't economically clueless, so this business model is working -- at least for Cockos. I'm more likely to trust a company who trusts me.
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12-02-2014, 02:01 PM
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#24
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29,260
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I've seen that side in the past and rest assured, such protection is marketed and sold with whatever fervor it takes to make the "you'll save this much" charts appear undeniable regardless of the real numbers. If someone is going to invest millions in a copy protection company, they are required to sell it at all costs and market accordingly to satisfy and protect that investment.
Point being I'd be happy to stand behind that those "profiting" from it likely have no idea whether they truly are or not putting them in that same speculation boat. Thusly, my speculation is that just as many are buying into it based on assumption and paranoia.
That being said, I'll always champion not punishing the legal users. Find a better way.
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Music is what feelings sound like.
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12-02-2014, 02:20 PM
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#25
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 21,551
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mivo
The first part assumes that companies always make economically sound decisions.
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It assumes, and rightly so in my view, that companies would have more relevant info about their financials than we do, and make those decisions while being fully informed. We have - no - info on, for example, the internal financials of Slate Digital to even express any such conclusion.
Again, I don't disagree with the opposite philosophies, I'm more just saying at some point we either have to get over it or - fully demonstrate - a case for a particular company dropping it. Saying "Me and 30 other users on Gearslutz who say we'll buy it if you drop iLok." isn't a demonstration of that.
When companies, like Cockos for example, are profiting doing whatever it is they've decided to do, they typically won't change unless given a very good reason to change. A few guys on Gearslutz ranting, 30% of whom would probably never buy the $200 plugin anyway, is not a good reason.
Not making an argument. iLok is what it is and ranting about it won't change that. Companies do what they think is best. When we disagree, we don't buy.
With all that said, I personally find it hard to understand anything under say... $150... being on iLok. My iLok stuff costs a wee bit more than that. A $50 plugin only on iLok seems nutty to me, when iLok costs as much as the plugin. To me, it seems iLok makes more sense for more expensive things where many might choose to use a crack than spend $300-500.
I do disagree with the idea that you can just go get a crack of any software that's on iLok or eLicenser. That may have been true at one time but I'm not sure it is currently. But then again, I don't go searching out cracks but from what I gather, the latest incarnations of both are very secure.
Last edited by Lawrence; 12-02-2014 at 02:41 PM.
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12-02-2014, 02:41 PM
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#26
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 9,090
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic
That being said, I'll always champion not punishing the legal users. Find a better way.
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I totally understand the principals of ilok, but Karbo's statement above is why I can't support a a protection system that is so deeply imbedded in the system...there is such a huge risk of catastrophe. When it happens (not if), it is not Pace that suffers, it is the users who paid for it. Pay for it, indeed!!
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The Sounds of the Hear and Now.
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12-02-2014, 02:46 PM
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#27
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 21,551
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richie43
I totally understand the principals of ilok, but Karbo's statement above is why I can't support a a protection system that is so deeply imbedded in the system...there is such a huge risk of catastrophe. When it happens (not if), it is not Pace that suffers, it is the users who paid for it. Pay for it, indeed!!
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Yep. But it's not our business to grow or fail, it's theirs. "Vote with your wallet."
Just don't expect your vote to always get the result you want. In this case it clearly hasn't, as people have been saying that for years and iLok still exists anyway. If the vast majority actually felt that way, that they would never buy anything on iLok, Pace would go under. That's clearly not happening so the majority clearly don't feel that way.
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12-02-2014, 02:49 PM
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#28
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 9,090
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence
Yep. But it's not our business to grow or fail, it's theirs. "Vote with your wallet."
Just don't expect your vote to always get the result you want. In this case it clearly hasn't, as people have been saying that for years and iLok still exists anyway.
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Absolutely. But I have already gotten exactly what i want for me with my vote! Ha ha, I have an ilok-free system. What other people do with their money is not my concern. There are so many awesome non-ilok alternatives for EVERYTHING that requires an ilok, no worries. It's not like I can't find an EQ or compressor plugin to buy.....
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The Sounds of the Hear and Now.
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12-02-2014, 03:01 PM
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#29
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 21,551
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For sure.
I obviously meant... "Don't expect companies to stop using iLok just because you stop buying their products."
It seems to be the case that some just can't accept the reality of that not ever happening, and just keep trying anyway. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over while expecting a different result. Cubase is a very good example of that. The complaints over the dongle have been going on for decades, and they still have it, and they're still selling product.
Has any major plugin company ever dropped iLok over (specifically) user pressure?
Last edited by Lawrence; 12-02-2014 at 03:06 PM.
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12-02-2014, 03:04 PM
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#30
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29,260
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That is the only reason I ever post in these threads. I think a person should vote with their wallet and feel good about it regardless of the result. It's the one thing that should make them feel good. I don't miss iLoked products, never used 'em and I'm about 1 million percent confident that I can survive without them.
Meaning, if one votes with their wallet and they don't feel good about it, they probably aren't doing so for the right reasons. And lastly, the reason I quoted Justin', if you hate iLok while you are swiping your CC for an iLok product you might step back and think about that.
Now someone will say "but I have to" and I'll still say no you don't, not really.
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Music is what feelings sound like.
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12-02-2014, 03:09 PM
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#31
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 9,090
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic
...and I'm about 1 million percent confident that I can survive without them.
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Man, you ALWAYS exaggerate....Every single time since the day you were born.....
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The Sounds of the Hear and Now.
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12-02-2014, 03:09 PM
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#32
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29,260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richie43
Man, you ALWAYS exaggerate....Every single time since the day you were born.....
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OK, 999,999 percent then.
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Music is what feelings sound like.
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12-02-2014, 03:09 PM
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#33
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 21,551
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Quote:
That is the only reason I ever post in these threads. I think a person should vote with their wallet
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Yep. I don't buy anything that disagrees with me, iLok or not.
What drives the never-ending iLok debate is (apparently) some who simply can't accept that some companies simply don't agree with them about that, and probably never will.
An iLok free world would be great imo. That and world peace and I'm all good.
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12-02-2014, 03:54 PM
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#34
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Europe
Posts: 153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence
What drives the never-ending iLok debate is (apparently) some who simply can't accept that some companies simply don't agree with them about that, and probably never will.
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I believe that most accept that part, but copy protection schemes that are perceived as overly restrictive tend to spark debate. It's the "human reaction" to "oppression".
For me, and probably for most of those who disagree with iLok, it's pretty easy: I don't buy dongleware, and I don't feel I miss out. Public debate is a good thing, but ultimately, success and failure are determined by sales figures. Though I imagine that it is more complicated for professionals who depend on a piece of software for their living, but who, at the same time, disagree with dongles. This would make me feel "trapped".
I'll say that I don't share the view of people who pirate software and justify it by pointing to the dongle (without buying a license). If I disagree with a company's business practices, I don't buy or use their stuff. Some other company will be happy to grab the money that's on the table.
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12-02-2014, 04:54 PM
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#35
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 3,792
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At least with UAD's dongle there is a perceived tangible benefit to the user (aside from preventing others from possibly getting for free something they've paid for).
The reason I say it's only a perceived benefit is that it's quite possible that the plugin counts would be higher if run natively.
On the plus side, at least the current generation of dongles do what they are advertised to do. I can't imagine anything worse than an intrusive and annoying dongle scheme that just ends up cracked anyway..
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FRs: v5 Media Explorer Requests, Global Quantization, Session View
Win10 Pro 64-bit, Reaper 6(x64), AMD 3950x, Aorus X570 Master, 64GB DDR4 3600, PowerColor Red Devil 5700XT, EVO 970 2TB, 10TB HD, Define R6
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12-02-2014, 06:16 PM
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#36
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 525
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I have never and will never use the ilok or similar dongle. I do use Reason which is assigned to my laptop through the Propellerheads website.
I can sell my Reason license. But the hot topic on the Reason forums is users not being able to sell their copy of Rack Extensions. So the user really doesn't own the plug-in.
Now I have never sold any software that I've bought, but I owned it. And while I understand why companies would use software protection, I disagree with the restrictions it puts on paying customers.
Thus the reason why I totally support cockos and Reaper. I appreciate the treatment of the customer.
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Reaper, Reason 8, Studio One Artist, EZ Drummer 2, and not enough time.
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12-02-2014, 07:51 PM
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#37
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Online
Posts: 4,896
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Which one of those posters in that thread is Justin Frankel?
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it aint worth a bop,if it dont got that pop
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12-02-2014, 08:06 PM
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#38
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Location
Posts: 5,559
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None. There's a poster named 'brandondrury' who quotes Justin.
-Data
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12-02-2014, 08:11 PM
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#39
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Online
Posts: 4,896
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I see
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it aint worth a bop,if it dont got that pop
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12-02-2014, 08:15 PM
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#40
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29,260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmic
I see
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Apparently not.
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Music is what feelings sound like.
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