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Old 08-26-2015, 06:00 AM   #1
David Else
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Default Three buttons to quick fix 90% of Reaper 5 Complaints

After reading all the negative Reaper 5 threads I had an idea.

I think Reaper is not for beginners, it is for geeks. It can do almost anything, but it takes more work and technical skill to learn how to get it done.

I would strongly suggest that the next major version of Reaper has three added preference buttons that would sort so much out that people don't like.

1. An 'advanced' button in the preferences. In default 'standard' mode about 50% of functions are hidden as they are not needed for most users. It could be expanded to have a tick box to turn things like MIDI and Video on and off making them effectively disappear from the program.

2. A 'quality vs CPU' slider. All the options like re-sampling quality and time stretch quality can be toggled from High to Low in one slider... most people have no interest in understanding and changing all these settings, they just want the best their CPU can do without stuttering. In 'default' mode all of these quality option are hidden, this is the only place you need ever make this simple choice.

3. Hide legacy workflow button (on as default). A team of user interface experts work out the best way to do things and all the other ways are hidden with this button. All those extra options no one *needs* disappear from menus and buttons. We now have an 'approved' best practice workflow intelligently chosen by people who know what they are doing.

No re-write or major new coding needed and all can be switched off so there is no change for expert/experienced users, win win.

For many people Reaper is the best DAW regardless of cost as they can bend it to their will and do what they want. For everyone else my 3 button system rules?
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Old 08-26-2015, 06:11 AM   #2
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Need to think about that one! But compliment you on thinking outside the proverbial square and coming up with some challenging ideas.
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Old 08-26-2015, 06:24 AM   #3
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I couldn't agree less.

I'm a guitarist, not a geek, and I've been using Reaper 'out of the box' for several years, during which time I've made a couple of albums, a few EPs, contributed tracks to Ambient Online's compilation albums, collaborated with other musicians by sharing files, etc, etc. All without any need to tweak or customize Reaper beyond the initial setting-up that you have to do with any DAW.

I know Reaper can get complicated, but it's the user's choice. It's entirely possible to get great results without getting your hands dirty
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Old 08-26-2015, 06:42 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Else View Post
All those extra options no one *needs* disappear from menus and buttons. We now have an 'approved' best practice workflow intelligently chosen by people who know what they are doing.
What someone doesn't need, another finds essential workflow.
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Old 08-26-2015, 07:17 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by kenz View Post
What someone doesn't need, another finds essential workflow.
I agree, that's why you can turn it off. People new to Reaper don't want a million ways to do the same thing, it's a waste of time and mental energy.
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Old 08-26-2015, 07:26 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by nicholas View Post
Need to think about that one! But compliment you on thinking outside the proverbial square and coming up with some challenging ideas.
Unfortunately it's not that out of the box. This is what Logic does.

And it makes sense in Logic because most of those users don't need to see all those advanced options. And it can be intimidating.

But I don't see REAPER the same way. While it can be intimidating to new users who open it for the first time, I don't think it's because there are TOO many options. It's more likely because it's NOT obvious WHAT to do.

But I feel it looks very simple.
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Old 08-26-2015, 07:43 AM   #7
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Kenny nailed it. I can remember being totally flummoxed by strange alien terms used instead of "standard" DAW names for functions and items.
ITEMS ffs!
That was one of the first things I can remember confusing me for a moment.
But surely this is the same in any DAW - you have to get used to the differences in ($10 word alert) nomenclature...

And let us never forget the debutante Reaper setup stickied in the newbie section.
http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=152012
Provided it is kept up to date, we already have a "yer basic" version.
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Old 08-26-2015, 08:10 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by David Else View Post

3. Hide legacy workflow button (on as default). A team of user interface experts work out the best way to do things and all the other ways are hidden with this button. All those extra options no one *needs* disappear from menus and buttons. We now have an 'approved' best practice workflow intelligently chosen by people who know what they are doing.

No re-write or major new coding needed and all can be switched off so there is no change for expert/experienced users, win win.

For many people Reaper is the best DAW regardless of cost as they can bend it to their will and do what they want. For everyone else my 3 button system rules?
This will never happen, apart from the fact that their is no such thing as an interface expert, yes some think they are, and they draw lovely UI, and they get annoyed by all the other UI.....oh wait, see the issue there, all the other UI, the ones that are wrong but are created downloaded and used by a ton of users.

This is the problem with these ideas, while i hate the default UI and actually always have on every version, how can anybody define what a large user base would want, seriously, for a long time a big portion of the userbase was using wood textured windows hahaha

What we need is the whole being walterable, then we can have options to tidy up thos mess
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Old 08-26-2015, 10:52 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by mikusan View Post
I couldn't agree less.

I'm a guitarist, not a geek, and I've been using Reaper 'out of the box' for several years, during which time I've made a couple of albums, a few EPs, contributed tracks to Ambient Online's compilation albums, collaborated with other musicians by sharing files, etc, etc. All without any need to tweak or customize Reaper beyond the initial setting-up that you have to do with any DAW.

I know Reaper can get complicated, but it's the user's choice. It's entirely possible to get great results without getting your hands dirty
Me too. I'm not interested in customisations and came to Reaper from Tracktion so was used to a relatively simple interface but even so I found Reaper easy to get used to. It's as complex as you need it to be, for simple stuff it's not rocket science.
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Old 08-26-2015, 11:00 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nicholas View Post
Need to think about that one! But compliment you on thinking outside the proverbial square and coming up with some challenging ideas.
-------------------------
PLUS ++ @ivansc "And let us never forget the debutante Reaper setup stickied in the newbie section.
http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=152012
Provided it is kept up to date, we already have a "yer basic" version."
-------------------------

Can today's ideas be worked thru in Reatraction Theme and somehow emphasized for Newer/Less Experienced Reaperites? I had never focused on the Sticky until today's post but can see why most new Users are seldom drawn to it. 'newbieland' itself is deemphasized in its placement and lowercase?

Hard to switch now even as a pathetic 'by rote' User most of the time.
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Old 08-26-2015, 11:00 AM   #11
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You can please some of the people all of the time and all of the people some of the time. But you'll never get people to agree on an Internet forum.
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Old 08-26-2015, 12:23 PM   #12
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On button 3
There is a point where certain workflows cannot simple be switched between a standard and an expert mode. But some UI scripting could. Like js in a html page.

Let me give an example :
Create a new vsti track.

The workflow is by now
. Context menu "create new track with virtual instrument "
. Select the vsti (usually starts in the wrong path)
. Select the input device
. Enable the praiseJustin (record enabled : just monitoring) button to have monitoring / midi input enabled.

Steps 3&4 can be completely automated without any change in the underlying code.step two can be simplified. So the scripted workflow would be

. Context menu "create new track with virtual instrument "
. Select the vsti from list
. the (tagged) main midi input is automatically chosen
. Monitoring (not the monitoring button) is automatically enabled


Of course this example can be done also with some templates, but it is just this, an example.
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Old 08-26-2015, 12:45 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Else View Post
People new to Reaper don't want a million ways to do the same thing, it's a waste of time and mental energy.
It's Reaper in general.

This was my startup hurdle. (4.x)

First, I didn't know the vocabulary for what I wanted to do (no prior DAW experience).

Second, the User Manual reads like the Help function for Unix where if you know what you're looking for you can refresh on the list of options but it's not useful to figure out how to do things the first time (my opinion based on my experience. Objections to dev -> null).

Third, even Kenny's excellent video tutorials set me back at first because his presentation of Reaper didn't look like mine and all the controls were moved around. In fact, it seemed that any video I tried to watch was a different skin or immediately invoked add-ons that I didn't have and didn't want to get involved with.

There is power in customization yes, but it makes getting started a real bitch because there are no consistent answers between teachers.

(now I'll go back under my bridge)
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Old 08-26-2015, 12:48 PM   #14
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I remember my actual first (problem related) thought when I fired up Reaper.
- where the hell do I change external MIDI patches/banks etc - and that was 10.000 years ago.
I wish I could program then I could combine 3 hobbies in one with Reaper.
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Old 08-26-2015, 01:07 PM   #15
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I agree with OP in much.

Less is often more.

e.g. preferences.
There are quite some important ones, some not so important ones, and someone who just clutters the space, gives less focus to important ones, and gives Reaper a less unified user-experience.

E.g.
- Mouse > Edit track names on single click (otherwise double-click is required)
Who needs to see this option? Really?
- Mouse > Mouse click below last track clears media item selection
Someone really needs this unticked?
It's a choice/preference, but should be taken on the dev side. m2c
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Old 08-26-2015, 01:32 PM   #16
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hello, just reading this post reminded me that a problem I had was to envisage the recording path, playback path (with or without effects ect) and workflow.
I think for me a few 'not to detailed' block diagrams showing an example of a simply record setup. An example of a playback setup (with and without effects). And a workflow example to pull the two together. All as screen size pictures. The record example could show that normally there is no input record level/gain control. Recording starts with just getting audio in and keeping an eye on track level meter. Input level usually controlled by the device sending in the audio. Recording dry so you can add effects later. Play back is where you can see and adjust track level slider/knobs for correct mixing level. A workflow to show things needed to be changed to flip between rec & play, adding the effects ect. With these simplified block diagrams, I think it would be easier to see a simplified view of the whole process, so it's understood better before the inevitable questions start. Soooo many "can't adjust record level" questions asked. "I didn't know what plugins were for and how to use ect ect". What do you think. This would all be in a file in the installer, but it needn't be a big file. fixerdave
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Old 08-26-2015, 05:21 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gpunk_w View Post

What we need is the whole being walterable, then we can have options to tidy up thos mess
And to add one or two more context menus and to make all menus editable.
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Old 08-26-2015, 05:39 PM   #18
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I found Reaper completely intuitive once I figured out routing. Cleaning up the interface would be a really nice touch, but the rest of it fit how I think really well. Other DAWs: You mean I have to create a special kind of track for MIDI, and another for audio? How about a track I can just put stuff in, just in case I change my mind?

I dig that.

Ten million features I don't use are just fine. I may use one of them one day.
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Old 08-26-2015, 06:15 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Else View Post
People new to Reaper don't want a million ways to do the same thing, it's a waste of time and mental energy.
Did you poll "all people new to Reaper"?
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Old 08-26-2015, 07:27 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dea-man View Post
Did you pole "all people new to Reaper"?

Bahahaha. That's one way to earn your self a quick trip to the clinic for a penicillin shot.
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Old 08-26-2015, 07:48 PM   #21
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I'm not a fan of data hiding in software design.
I'm the type of guy who enters "expert mode" at every opportunity, so that I learn how stuff actually works. So I'm not really into this 3 button thingy.
If it's in the program, it's there for a reason.
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Old 08-26-2015, 07:53 PM   #22
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Bahahaha. That's one way to earn your self a quick trip to the clinic for a penicillin shot.
My bad.

Good one though. Maybe I should have left it like that.
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Old 08-26-2015, 08:09 PM   #23
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$60. Who cares?

The disscussions about what Reaper is or should be are for the most part just an academic diversion, it is what it is.
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Old 08-27-2015, 12:59 AM   #24
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I used Logic Silver on PC ages ago and hated it so I was put off computer based recording but I had no problem at all adjusting to Reaper. I don't know 10 ways of doing the same thing, I generally know one and that is fine. I hate that Apple "hide everything because people are too stupid to use computers" approach. I'm not afraid of, like, learning stuff.
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Old 08-27-2015, 01:01 AM   #25
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Did you poll "all people new to Reaper"?
Did you ?
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Old 08-27-2015, 01:04 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nystagmus View Post
I'm not a fan of data hiding in software design.
I'm the type of guy who enters "expert mode" at every opportunity, so that I learn how stuff actually works. So I'm not really into this 3 button thingy.
If it's in the program, it's there for a reason.
Imaging you're reparing your washing-mashine.
The cover for the back has 4 screws, m4 flat head, philips, 6mm.
Now when putting them back in:
Would you like the choice of 100 others screws, in all sizes and types, laying together with the correct ones, in a big jar?
Or do you prefer just the 4 screws you need in front of you?
Less is often more.
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Old 08-27-2015, 02:04 AM   #27
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$60. Who cares?

The discussions about what Reaper is or should be are for the most part just an academic diversion, it is what it is.
+1.

I just re-upped. Last time I payed was for version 3 and that license lasted me up until now. I can't think of many things I can't do in REAPER and of all the things holding me back the software is at the very bottom of the list. Lack of time and talent score much higher.

Many people treat software like sports teams. You pick one, root for it in all weathers and spend a lot of time trying to justify that you picked the right team. That anxiety is eating so much of the bandwidth on this and other forums. Discussions on best practices get buried under a constant stream of nit-picking and endless subjective arguments.

It's sad.
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Old 08-27-2015, 02:21 AM   #28
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I cannot follow the 60$ argument.

Reaper is my daw. I work with that. My music creation is based on reaper. So if it fails, no music making for me. If it gets better, better music making for me. So the value lies in the usage, not in the price.

If reaper was my secondary daw, then everything would be ok with the price regarding possible flaws & glitches, as I would not depend on it. But this is not the situation for me...
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Old 08-27-2015, 02:36 AM   #29
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I cannot follow the 60$ argument.

Reaper is my daw. I work with that. My music creation is based on reaper. So if it fails, no music making for me. If it gets better, better music making for me. So the value lies in the usage, not in the price.

If reaper was my secondary daw, then everything would be ok with the price regarding possible flaws & glitches, as I would not depend on it. But this is not the situation for me...
Are you saying that because you picked REAPER as your primary DAW you're entitled to the same level of customer support that you'd get from product that cost ten times as much?
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Old 08-27-2015, 02:36 AM   #30
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This discussion is interesting but I don't know whose concerns are being addressed. Is there any evidence that people "give up" on REAPER for the reasons stated? How would we know (anecdotal evidence, downloads not followed by licenses, certainly not polls it seems?)
FWIW I "gave up on REAPER" at first cos it wasn't like Audition which I knew well but came back to it and gradually things clicked and I began to saw its power (lots of "Oh so you can do that! moments). I assume anyone outgrowing say Garageband will be able or prepared to put in that sort of effort. And there is lots of help available as we know. (Wasn't it clever to give Kenny's videos such high profile BTW?)
The only other suggestion I could make is maybe a friendly video on really basic but common and frustrating errors... I am probably qualified to make that one!
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Old 08-27-2015, 05:12 AM   #31
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Are you saying that because you picked REAPER as your primary DAW you're entitled to the same level of customer support that you'd get from product that cost ten times as much?
yes...
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Old 08-27-2015, 06:38 AM   #32
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I cannot follow the 60$ argument.

Reaper is my daw. I work with that. My music creation is based on reaper. So if it fails, no music making for me. If it gets better, better music making for me. So the value lies in the usage, not in the price.

If reaper was my secondary daw, then everything would be ok with the price regarding possible flaws & glitches, as I would not depend on it. But this is not the situation for me...
That's the thing though, everything has a relative value balance. You buy a thing and if you get your money's worth, all is good.

That's why I said the discussions are mostly academic, where users do what users always do on all daw forums, talk about things they don't like and hope the developers feel the same way. But at the end of the day, every single one of these products is workable as they are and the only reason we spend so much time talking about what we wish they were is because we can, the Internet.

Even in the very worst hypothetical case, buying Reaper and coming to the conclusion that it sucks, you're still only out $60. That should never really happen with Reaper though because the demo never times out.

But yeah, the discussions are mostly academic, and various users groups trying to push or pull the development one way or another. I do agree that if much more thought was put into the UI (design and workflow wise out of the box) Reaper would probably be an even better product. It doesn't suck though. I only really use Studio One and Reaper and Studio One's interface design and approach is much more user friendly and conducive to a good general workflow, while Reaper is much more functionally powerful overall.

It puzzles me universally with Reaper, Studio One, Cubase, whatever, why anyone ever chooses something to be their goto software that has so many issues for them personally. I've literally never done that ever. I think part of it is because the net removed all of the fences, that we can literally see and directly compare everything now.

But yeah, there's lots of thing about Reaper that I'm not particularly fond of but for $60 I don't spend much time worrying about it.

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Old 08-27-2015, 08:36 AM   #33
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This here has become something of a tco discussion.
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Old 08-27-2015, 08:56 AM   #34
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It's just amazing how much angry people gather around these threads yelling how the OP's ideas are stupid or unnecessary or "not happening".

But he's totally and completely right.

All major DAW's have a certain flow that's been either chosen by the creators at the beginning of developement, or come about after years and years of refinement.

They do things the way they do and you can't change that.

And that's why people prefer some over others. It's about how it integrates to your way of thinkin and the way you want your work.

And there's nothing bad about that, since most successfull programs are like that, they have their own way of working and that's that.

The power of reaper is, that it can be almost what ever you want. And that's why I think it's a good idea to unify the workflow of Reaper and rethink what options are provided and in what order so that anyone beginning the journey isn't overwhelmed and since there's a standard set of things, you can easily refer to those when helping someone out.

And then there's all the customization that Reaper allows you to do when you want to.

Simple at first, but still what ever you want.

Even if there's no one right way of doing things, it's still a good idea to have unified experience that's simplified and takes into account the 99% of the people using the product.

I would be curious to see a version of Reaper, that collects anonymous usage statistics about most used menu items, keyboard shortcuts and menu structures (with your agreement and completely transparently).

Thus dev's could easily detect what 90% of people are doing and remove unnecessary or very rarely used things from the default set of menus and toolbars or even add in actions that many do using custom actions currently.

That would definitely bring enough real world usage data to fix many things that people don't like the way default Reaper is set up.
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Old 08-27-2015, 09:08 AM   #35
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Did you ?
No.

All I have is my own experience. I have no idea what other people want or expect. That's why I am amazed that someone else does.
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Old 08-27-2015, 09:19 AM   #36
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@Icchan ... Agree, and would add .... starting with something like Reatraction for those new to DAWs in general, regardless of notable talent in other music disciplines. Important for me is smooth transition from one to the next.

Started with v3.? in 2011, and has been a struggle to learn specific functions (my limitations for sure). But now so invested, there is really no choice to change ... unless via a smooth, planned path.
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Old 08-27-2015, 10:45 AM   #37
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I'm a fan of at least having a strong "beginner" pack with simplified menus, interface, and pre-made toolbars/actions that cover the basic features without having to dig around semi-blindly.

There are bits of this already floating around the community, such as this better organized menu system:





The power is in our hands to make a lot of this happen.

EDIT: oh, I just learned about reatraction from this thread... surely most beginners will miss something that may've been so useful to them!?
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Old 08-27-2015, 11:36 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomm View Post
I'm a fan of at least having a strong "beginner" pack with simplified menus, interface, and pre-made toolbars/actions that cover the basic features without having to dig around semi-blindly.

There are bits of this already floating around the community, such as this better organized menu system:





The power is in our hands to make a lot of this happen.

EDIT: oh, I just learned about reatraction from this thread... surely most beginners will miss something that may've been so useful to them!?
How can I implement these?
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Old 08-27-2015, 12:08 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dea-man View Post
How can I implement these?
Start here:

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=58672.

Enjoy.


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Old 08-27-2015, 01:08 PM   #40
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I saw and considered the reatraction solution to my learning (and continuing if I ever resume recording) struggles.

There are two issues.

First is that none of the training material looks like that so the books and videos will immediately not match what's in front of the student. It's like getting the directions that say "turn left at where the old Phillips 66 sign used to be."

Second is that the Reaper developers can destroy compatibility of that addon with the next minor update. (not that they would choose to do so but it's a risk with any so-called "upgrade.") Blowing the training wheels off by upgrade might be good for the advanced beginner who can deal with it but would be very frustrating for the real newbies.

Standards are helpful for learning.
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