Old 04-14-2012, 10:19 AM   #1
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Default Waves L2

I've seen videos of people just using Waves L2 to limit masters perfectly, and people are happy to set it at -0.3 db and they feel safe with that even taking into account some head room for some certain applications.

but for me, it doesn't limit perfectly like that. i'll still get clipping on my master track, and it is last in chain. does anybody know why this is?

i would really like to be able to set it so that no clipping will occur and just manipulate my master level and threshold to taste sound wise not volume meter/clipping wise, which i feel is the whole purpose and awesomeness of the L2 limiter.

am i doing something wrong? or is it reaper somehow that has L2 behave this way?
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Old 04-14-2012, 11:01 AM   #2
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cehck Master volume amke sure it's at 0
raise release

Personally I think the waves plugs are overrated as helll... Look into other limiters (Sonnox and Voxengo elephant are the first 2 that comes to mind)
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Old 04-14-2012, 11:14 AM   #3
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Never just do as everyone else does blindly.

Just because everyone sets a knob to X doesn't mean squat for your setup.

Do whatever works for you.
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Old 04-14-2012, 11:19 AM   #4
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you mean master fader? or where else would master volume be? as i understand it, the limiter should just stop everything exactly at where you set the max, no matter what else you do. it may incur huge amounts of distortion but it should brick wall limit it perfectly. no?

ya, haven't tried other limiters. i think the waves plugins are overrated because they came out with the technology first. idk, i like the simplicity and how it works, and the arc release feature.

maybe i'd like one of those other ones better. but in which way do you prefer them? more squash and less distortion? or other features you like?

to be honest, i'm more of a musician and singer/songwriter. not an uber mixing/mastering guy, so i'm not fully sure i would be able to tell the difference. i am getting better though, so maybe at this point i might. but still. there are so many plugins. like the L3 multimaximizer. just that one will take me a little while to get fully used to. i mean, maybe there are better limiters out there. but i still don't fully know when i'd want to use the L3 and how exactly to use it rather than the L2. so i don't know exactly if L2 is letting me down, or if i'm using it inappropriately yet. and to be honest, i don't even notice it letting me down really, so obviously i'm missing some skills.

unless maybe those plugins are head and shoulders above the waves limiters, i'm not sure i want to venture down the road of getting more plugins. i have a quite comprehensive set, and i'd like to get an expert at those first. having too much selection of plugins, makes it hard to compare them. i'd rather get good at more styles of plugins, master the ones i have, and then go out and try other ones, and then see exactly how they differ, and whether or not i prefer them.

otherwise i just have an abundance of choice and no reason to choose one over the other. i think also, to me plugins are not necessarily inherently better than others. maybe a limiter like L2 compared to similar other things could be more likely to be compared that way, but still, i think that different plugins are different. and maybe some are better at doing some things than others and maybe some are weaker at some things, but maybe for an application that weakness might be a sound i'm looking for. so if i added multiple limiters, i would like to be in a position where i would know, "ok, i want that one, because i can squash more and it stays together, or i want that one, because it's linear phase and sounds cleaner, or i need to use it for tracking ao i can't, or i prefer the sound of the non-linear phase" or whatever. i need to know the plugins inside and out to choose them and apply them correctly. so i have to stick to few plugins at once.

i have heard the elephant is good around here though. lots of people seem to like it. not really sure exactly what all the hype is about. i mean, i can't imagine how much better you can get than L2 but i guess that's exactly my problem.

one thing i'm sure about L2 though, is that it's somewhere in the chain on alot of the mp3s i listen to.
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Old 04-14-2012, 12:27 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimOBrien View Post
Never just do as everyone else does blindly.

Just because everyone sets a knob to X doesn't mean squat for your setup.

Do whatever works for you.
i know, but i'm just using what other people do as a reference for how my setup is not working correctly.

as far as i can tell from watching other people use L2. it will just brick wall limit perfectly. nothing gets up above the limit you set with it. this is it's purpose.

then the threshold and master volume can be used in order to decide how squashy the sound is. but whatever volume you set the out ceiling to on the L2 plug. should as high as the out signal goes. no?

this is my understanding of how the plug should work. unless... i misunderstand..

and i'm starting to think maybe i do.

L2 probably doesn't know where signal level is on host master. maybe that's what first post was implying. i need to leave master at 0, that way, L2 will assume the master is at 0, and will allow x db above that, in order to hit the ceiling you set.

maybe that's my problem.
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Old 04-14-2012, 12:29 PM   #6
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yup! that was it! thank you first post guy... skam goodiez, and excuse my stupidity...
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Old 04-14-2012, 04:15 PM   #7
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If you are getting into this game and not wanting to do any damage I recommend reading up on true peak metering and digital headroom. It's been my experience that many of these limiters that say they are stopping everything at -.3 db are absolutely not and are allowing clipping.

There is also some evidence to support that many consumer playback devices could be clipping short of 0 dBFS at like -.5 dB or lower so there is that...

Of course if you like that sound then all of this is irrelevant. The loudness game isnt pretty...
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Old 04-14-2012, 04:26 PM   #8
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you are welcome :-)

another advice I can give you is this... avoid smashing the mix one time.... Example: u want to raise yor mix 3db... instead of setting the threshold at -3db, have 3 L2's with the threshold at -1db.
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Old 04-14-2012, 05:01 PM   #9
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You're actually better off setting your limiter to -1 dB at the highest, because intersample peaks can clip your signal at the DA stage. Some limiters are better at preventing this than others, and the L2 is not one of them.

In a heavily limited mix at -9dB (output ceiling at -9dB as well, tv specs in Germany), the Truepeak measurement shoewed -6.9dB of actual level.

And then the MP3 codecs overload like crazy from material like that. As an engineer I just slap people if they still go for -0.3dB, so don't.

The EBU R128 recommendation is -1dbTP. The Voxengo Elephant limiter and the Fabfilter Pro-L can perform their operations with 4 x oversampling. Use that if you want to be sure and set the threshold and ceiling to -1dB at the most. Then you can be reasonably sure you won't overshoot and distory the DA stage.
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Old 04-15-2012, 06:45 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airon View Post
You're actually better off setting your limiter to -1 dB at the highest, because intersample peaks can clip your signal at the DA stage. Some limiters are better at preventing this than others, and the L2 is not one of them.
look into the Izotope suite also... Their limiter has an intersample meter as well
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Old 04-15-2012, 01:59 PM   #11
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Try JS: SStillwell/eventhorizon2 that comes with Reaper. I think it sounds better than Waves L2 and doesn't let thru overs.
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Old 04-15-2012, 05:50 PM   #12
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Ozone is the best limiter and I own Elephant, Slate, UAD, and others...ozone sounds the best to my ears even though the others above are extremely capable also.

I also find that if you are doing mp3's you need to set any limiter a little bit lower (for me -.5db) because they will have overs where a WAV you can actually set it at -.1db and it will stick it. Try rendering an mp3 at -.1db with any limiter and put it back into Reaper and it will have overs. Even some pro mp3's will have overs in it...I remember seeing an article on a Madonna album that had digital overs on the mp3's.
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Old 04-15-2012, 05:54 PM   #13
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Xenon is pretty nice too
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Old 04-15-2012, 06:45 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilkesin View Post
If you are getting into this game and not wanting to do any damage I recommend reading up on true peak metering and digital headroom. It's been my experience that many of these limiters that say they are stopping everything at -.3 db are absolutely not and are allowing clipping.

There is also some evidence to support that many consumer playback devices could be clipping short of 0 dBFS at like -.5 dB or lower so there is that...

Of course if you like that sound then all of this is irrelevant. The loudness game isnt pretty...
i actually don't mind the loudness game really. i think for some styles of music it sounds real good, and for some you want it less loud, and ya, you lose some transients, but i find that having a tighter dynamic range is nice. like i said, for different music i find it better than others or like more of the effect more than in others, but it all depends on what you're doing.

so i'm not really a soldier in the wars on loudness wars, but i do think playback devices should cope with the fact that some things are less loud at rms value than others, because i hate going from a quiet song to a louder one, and i also don't want to digitally remaster everything to get it all sound squashed because the original way a song was made i think needs to remain the same. it's just you need your mp3 play to lover the volume of the louder songs to make them all seem at similar sound levels.
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Old 04-15-2012, 06:47 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skamm Goodiez View Post
you are welcome :-)

another advice I can give you is this... avoid smashing the mix one time.... Example: u want to raise yor mix 3db... instead of setting the threshold at -3db, have 3 L2's with the threshold at -1db.
ya, that is a great tip, and actually something i've come to notice. multiple L2s let you squash it more without developing artifacts.
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Old 04-15-2012, 06:50 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airon View Post

The EBU R128 recommendation is -1dbTP. The Voxengo Elephant limiter and the Fabfilter Pro-L can perform their operations with 4 x oversampling. Use that if you want to be sure and set the threshold and ceiling to -1dB at the most. Then you can be reasonably sure you won't overshoot and distory the DA stage.
ok i didn't understand much of this, but i'd like to.

EBU R128. what is this? what exactly is this oversampling you speak of, and why is it good, and what are drawbacks if any? and i assume DA stage is Digital audio stage? but then i don't know exactly what you mean, because afaik, everything i am doing is already at that stage, except for the trip from my mic into my interface.

there are intersample peaks that escape limiters?
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Old 04-15-2012, 07:06 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by camerondye View Post
Ozone is the best limiter and I own Elephant, Slate, UAD, and others...ozone sounds the best to my ears even though the others above are extremely capable also.

I also find that if you are doing mp3's you need to set any limiter a little bit lower (for me -.5db) because they will have overs where a WAV you can actually set it at -.1db and it will stick it. Try rendering an mp3 at -.1db with any limiter and put it back into Reaper and it will have overs. Even some pro mp3's will have overs in it...I remember seeing an article on a Madonna album that had digital overs on the mp3's.
ya, ozone limiter is good. i still have trouble accurately distinguishing the sonic difference between the two. but i like L2. what's good about L2 is that it is not linear phase. Ozone i think does everything linear phase, which gives really nice transparent FX, but it can only really be used for mastering, which i know is where limiting the master would come in, but I often won't do it that way. i like to use L2 on other tracks as well. i like it quite a bit. it is sort of in a way very transparent, but i feel like there's this sort of sheen you get from it, like a tube warmth, but very subtle when it starts working. and i think that's the non linearphasedness of it. but then again, maybe it's just a palcebo effect with me. i know if my eyes were closed and i heard you drop the threshold steadily on L2 and then drop it the same way in ozone, i wouldn't know which is which. i might not even notice a difference. would be a cool experiment to try though.

waves plugins have some sort of industry standard style hype, but then this whole other opposite sentiment, and idk. i like the waves plugs. i love rcomp for vocals. one of my favorite comps. and it's got alot of what you need. i don't like the gate though. i'm not sure if i'd like any gate, because the waves one is the only one i have, but i think i'd want a look ahead one? idk, that would lag everything which sucks. if anyone has good suggestions for better gates i'd be interested to try. for me i feel if i have to use a gate, then i should not use one and just fix whatever is making me need a gate some other way, because gates suck.

i looove ozone as well though. i love all the sections. i think it is a great plugin, but i still have yet to master it anywhere close to its potential. (no pun intended). there are really quite a bit of options, but i think ozone is maybe one of the best plugins available on the market today for doing what it does.
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Old 04-15-2012, 08:13 PM   #18
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Quote:
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ok i didn't understand much of this, but i'd like to.

EBU R128. what is this? what exactly is this oversampling you speak of, and why is it good, and what are drawbacks if any? and i assume DA stage is Digital audio stage? but then i don't know exactly what you mean, because afaik, everything i am doing is already at that stage, except for the trip from my mic into my interface.

there are intersample peaks that escape limiters?
Google the EBU R128. It has to do with efforts to standardize levels in the industry, anti-loudness stuff (important too, but a different topic). Over sampling IS a good thing in regards to plugins. Simply put, it enables your fx to process at a higher quality. And DA refers to conversion stages, digital to audio. AD/DA== audio to digital/digital to audio.
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Old 04-15-2012, 08:22 PM   #19
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Google the EBU R128. It has to do with efforts to standardize levels in the industry, anti-loudness stuff (important too, but a different topic).
big fan of this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by richie43 View Post
Over sampling IS a good thing in regards to plugins. Simply put, it enables your fx to process at a higher quality. And DA refers to conversion stages, digital to audio. AD/DA== audio to digital/digital to audio.
oh.
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Old 04-16-2012, 06:41 AM   #20
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If you are looking to try a character limiter for tracks definitely try Elephant, I think that's the one thing it actually does better than anything because you it has all the sound options and they are very cool for track limiting.
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Old 04-16-2012, 03:30 PM   #21
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I've become a big fan of the Toneboosters Barricade limiter. Very affordable, high quality and comes with all sorts of great metering built into a nice compact GUI. Though I realize you aren't exactly looking for new recommendations.
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