Old 07-24-2015, 06:07 PM   #1
Pook2000
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Default Tube pre-amps for guitar/bass.

Hi guys,

Just wondering does anyone have experience with tube pre-amps, particularly for guitar/bass?

There are a lot of relatively pricey models which seem to get a lot of attention, UA, Chandler, Mesa Boogie, but I'm wondering what people's own experience with them are, (however subjective that might be)?

For myself I'm really just looking to get a nicer input tone before hitting my interface, and subsequently Amplitube, which on it's own adds quite a thin, zingy sort of veil over the input, at least for me. I just thought that maybe a signal wrapped in a slice of tube beef might give the whole sound a little more body. And I'm predominantly looking for clean tones for the most part, but there'll also be room for a little more drive at times, for lead lines etc.

Would love to hear people's thoughts/experiences if they'd like to share them.

Many thanks.

P.
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Old 07-24-2015, 06:15 PM   #2
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What are you using for your preamp now? I used to have a nice tube preamp, but I sold it when money got tight. I loved it but that was because it just sounded good regardless of it being a "tube" pre. I think any upgrade in your preamp will be a net positive even if it doesnt glow.
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Old 07-24-2015, 07:30 PM   #3
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Does "Warm Audio" make anything you might look at?
I read reviews and their name popped up.
They are well thought of.
I use a Groove Tubes Vipre they might no be in your price range.

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Old 07-24-2015, 09:01 PM   #4
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I pretty much only run my bass through a tube pre for the last couple of years. I wouldn't attribute my liking of it to just the tube section but rather the entire preamp.
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Old 07-24-2015, 11:58 PM   #5
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I have a couple of old Hughes & Kettner Tubeman pres, which I use fro time to time - at any one time I usually have one working and one down for maintenance - these are OLD.
But an awful lot of the time I just use the instrument input on my Octopre or the HiZ input on my Golden Age Project Pre-'73.

Iron in the signal path is sometimes just as effective as a valve/tube, depending on what you are going for, sound wise.
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Old 07-25-2015, 01:29 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Wilkesin View Post
What are you using for your preamp now?
I'm just going direct to my interface,(2i4), and the hope was that I would get away with Amplitube. I have the Fender bundle. But for my own ears the sound is lacking. It's brittle no matter what you do. The fullness you get from playing through real amps just isn't there. Or maybe that's just what I'm used to. I'm in an apartment though, so my options are limited, and I'm trying to save myself money on studio costs by getting guitars down at home. If I can! Independence and all that.

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Does "Warm Audio" make anything you might look at?
Haven't heard of these guys but will look more into them. Thanks for the suggestion.

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Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
I wouldn't attribute my liking of it to just the tube section but rather the entire preamp.
Yes you're right. It doesn't have to be just tubes. I've been looking at this:

http://www.thomann.de/ie/universal_a...47509bca748423

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Originally Posted by ivansc View Post
Iron in the signal path
Yes, just something that might equate more to going through a real amp. I can't put my finger on the Amplitube thing, or even describe it properly. It colours the signal yes, but there's body missing in the sound you get. There's a lack.

Thanks for the input.
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Old 07-25-2015, 03:02 AM   #7
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As far as actual tube pre's the Sebatron gets used a lot here, it's an Australian mic pre, but it has a very "Fender" feel to it using the DI's. Extremely versatile, it's hard to get it to sound bad.

As far as sims we use Scuffham SGear the most.
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Old 07-25-2015, 03:18 AM   #8
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I run my bass direct to my Focusrite 18i20 and use Ignite SHB-1 bass tube amp sim. Sounds great to my ears.
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Old 07-25-2015, 04:09 AM   #9
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For bass, there's a "well-known secret" preamp : the ART TubeMP. Don't laugh (as I did first). It's starved plate, cheap and all. But it definitely has a sound to it and all levels of drive sound really good with bass guitars.
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Old 07-25-2015, 06:21 AM   #10
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For bass, there's a "well-known secret" preamp : the ART TubeMP. Don't laugh (as I did first). It's starved plate, cheap and all. But it definitely has a sound to it and all levels of drive sound really good with bass guitars.
Is it definitely starved plate? the psu is AC which suggests they're using voltage multipliers to raise the internal voltage. maybe not to HT levels but probably 48V for the phantom and possibly something higher for the valve.
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Old 07-25-2015, 06:22 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Pook2000 View Post


Yes you're right. It doesn't have to be just tubes. I've been looking at this:

http://www.thomann.de/ie/universal_a...47509bca748423
That's actually what I use. Well rather the 4-710D which is a quad version of the 710.
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Old 07-25-2015, 06:38 AM   #12
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For bass, there's a "well-known secret" preamp : the ART TubeMP.
It may work for guitars as well. Mine is modified to old BLA specs and the clean gtr sound it outputs is sweet.

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Is it definitely starved plate?
The PSU feed for the plate is the same as for the phantom pwr. I think I measured about 30V above plate resistor under load, certainly a starved plate design...and not quite up there for the phantom either.
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Old 07-25-2015, 06:45 AM   #13
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It may work for guitars as well. Mine is modified to old BLA specs and the clean gtr sound it outputs is sweet.



The PSU feed for the plate is the same as for the phantom pwr. I think I measured about 30V above plate resistor under load, certainly a starved plate design...and not quite up there for the phantom either.
I found a shematic, 48V for the phantom and 33V and 48V for the valves.
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Old 07-25-2015, 07:01 AM   #14
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I use a tube preamp. Either a house-made preamp at our studio or a vintage Universal Audio 1008A. If it's a DI, I will usually run it through a vintage Gates limiter. We have some beautiful pieces where I work!

At home, I have an Onyx board, but I will run bass through a Valvotronics tube DI. These are beautiful pieces, well made and sound great. I think there are some on eBay right now with reasonable Buy It Now prices.
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Old 07-25-2015, 09:36 AM   #15
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Just to put a damper on things and get most if not all of us VERY depressed, the best bass DI that I have ever used was......

A Manley VoxBox.

https://www.thomann.de/gb/manley_voxbox_combo.htm
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Old 07-25-2015, 09:49 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beingmf View Post
For bass, there's a "well-known secret" preamp : the ART TubeMP. Don't laugh (as I did first). It's starved plate, cheap and all. But it definitely has a sound to it and all levels of drive sound really good with bass guitars.
Will look into it. Thanks!

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That's actually what I use. Well rather the 4-710D which is a quad version of the 710.
Are you happy with it? Much difference between the tube/solid on a clean setting?

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Originally Posted by citizenkeith View Post
I use a tube preamp. Either a house-made preamp at our studio or a vintage Universal Audio 1008A. If it's a DI, I will usually run it through a vintage Gates limiter. We have some beautiful pieces where I work!

At home, I have an Onyx board, but I will run bass through a Valvotronics tube DI. These are beautiful pieces, well made and sound great. I think there are some on eBay right now with reasonable Buy It Now prices.
Okay, very interesting suggestions. And it was stated earlier it's just to put the signal 'through some metal' to warm things up a bit. Fatten, liven, beef, whatever

Regards your 'house-made' preamps. This interests me, and I've looked for some schematics myself, but I'd be going near nothing that wasn't directly suggested or tested by someone first. Is it even worth the hassle? I'd be handy enough in this department. Please elaborate if you like.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc View Post
Just to put a damper on things and get most if not all of us VERY depressed, the best bass DI that I have ever used was......

A Manley VoxBox.

https://www.thomann.de/gb/manley_voxbox_combo.htm
I'll have three please!
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Old 07-25-2015, 10:05 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by ivansc View Post
Just to put a damper on things and get most if not all of us VERY depressed, the best bass DI that I have ever used was......

A Manley VoxBox.

https://www.thomann.de/gb/manley_voxbox_combo.htm
The best that I've ever had the pleasure of using was the D.W.Fearn :/
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Old 07-25-2015, 12:46 PM   #18
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Regards your 'house-made' preamps. This interests me, and I've looked for some schematics myself, but I'd be going near nothing that wasn't directly suggested or tested by someone first. Is it even worth the hassle? I'd be handy enough in this department. Please elaborate if you like.
I didn't make the preamps, but they were based on this design:
http://wiki.diyrecordingequipment.co...bottle-preamp/

You'll probably have to do some Googling to find the schematics and parts list.
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Old 07-25-2015, 01:22 PM   #19
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Does "Warm Audio" make anything you might look at?
Actually having looked at some discussions/reviews on 'Warm Audio' I'm definitely interested. They seem to have their wits about them.

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Originally Posted by citizenkeith View Post
I didn't make the preamps, but they were based on this design:
http://wiki.diyrecordingequipment.co...bottle-preamp/

You'll probably have to do some Googling to find the schematics and parts list.
I've looked at a good few schematics myself. I thought it might just be an interesting project to potter about on, with the hope of having a pay off at the end. But it's been difficult to find a diagram with good associated commentary. I'd be reluctant on this account alone. Time, money, effort etc.
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Old 07-25-2015, 11:46 PM   #20
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Default Bass pre vs Softube bass room

I was convinced I needed a tube pre until I picked up Softube Bass Amp Room. I have been happy ever since. Just a thought.
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Old 07-26-2015, 01:41 AM   #21
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I was convinced I needed a tube pre until I picked up Softube Bass Amp Room. I have been happy ever since. Just a thought.
I mean no offence, but listening to the UA demos, (whom you would imagine would be doing their level best to sell their own products), I honestly think these sound worse than amplitube.

I had thoughts last year that somehow I might be able to achieve respectable results putting guitars down at home, using amp sims, and saving a little money. But the further I get into all this the more I'm beginning to think it might be a fools errand. And money pit.

I will be able to get guitars down yes, but I think I'm probably in the end going to have to re-amp them, in a decent room, with real amps/mics. I'm thinking this will probably save money in the longer run.
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Old 07-26-2015, 03:37 AM   #22
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Are you happy with it? Much difference between the tube/solid on a clean setting?
Love it. Very subtle difference between the two.


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I honestly think these sound worse than amplitube.
Context is everything. Hearing samples won't give the right answer unless one or the other were terrible which I can't see being the case for either. However, I wouldn't get a pre for just guitar/bass, it would be for lots of incoming signals. Better if you could try both in context and in your own mix (if possible), then decide.
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Old 07-26-2015, 04:29 AM   #23
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Love it. Very subtle difference between the two.
Good to know. Thanks.

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Context is everything. Hearing samples won't give the right answer unless one or the other were terrible which I can't see being the case for either.
Yes I do agree with this. If amp sims work for you and get you to where you want to go, then great. For my own ears though they just don't sound right. So far none that I've tried sit on my ear.

I thought maybe a good preamp would add body, a nicer tone, and liven things up a little.

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However, I wouldn't get a pre for just guitar/bass.
Curious, why not?

If I run with drum samples for a present project I was thinking I might subsequently run them through the same pre also. To help gel them all a little.

This is all still a great experiment for me, and one that began with the notion of thinking I might be able to get certain instrument parts down from the comfort of my home, without the pressure of the studio, the ticking clock, the freedom to alter parts, experiment more etc.

I can still do this yes, but I'd love to be able work on guitar/bass sounds too, without having to wait to re-amp. Just to play, experiment, commit and think great, I'm happy with that. Again from the comfort of my home and out of the sterile studio environment.

Has anyone tried the Kemper Amp Profiler or the Fractal Audio Axe FX II?

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Old 07-26-2015, 05:37 AM   #24
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Because it would work well for lots of stuff. However don't expect a nice pre to make your jaw drop as soon as you plug in, it's an instrument in its own right. If you are expecting angels to sing with clouds parting, don't get one.
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Old 07-26-2015, 05:57 AM   #25
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If you are expecting angels to sing with clouds parting, don't get one.
Haha. Good advice! But no, I'd be realistic enough.
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Old 07-26-2015, 07:42 AM   #26
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If you are expecting angels to sing with clouds of farting, don't get one.
As "they" say on the interwebz......
Fixed that for ya.......

Great advice indeed.
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Old 07-26-2015, 10:56 AM   #27
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I mean no offence, but listening to the UA demos, (whom you would imagine would be doing their level best to sell their own products), I honestly think these sound worse than amplitube.

I had thoughts last year that somehow I might be able to achieve respectable results putting guitars down at home, using amp sims, and saving a little money. But the further I get into all this the more I'm beginning to think it might be a fools errand. And money pit.

I will be able to get guitars down yes, but I think I'm probably in the end going to have to re-amp them, in a decent room, with real amps/mics. I'm thinking this will probably save money in the longer run.
What is your current in the box set up?
Signal path from guitar?

I run my guitars into my very old Boss SD-1,...or my Vox 847 wah then into the Boss SD-1....
From there I run into the mic input on my Creative SoundBlaster Audigy 2 audio card...yes,this seems quite rookie,....but I just track guitar at home,and it works beautifully.
(Win 7 PC,...x64 - i5 2400 @ 3.10 GHz 8GB RAM )

I get under 10ms latency,@ 192 samples recording @ 48k 24 bit

Inside Reaper,...the guitar runs into a LePou HyBrit amp sim,...then into an NadIR cab sim,...and use a vast library of IRs.

For in the box,I can't get any better than this,...the NadIR is fantastic with the HyBrit,and this combo is very light on resources.
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Old 07-26-2015, 11:50 AM   #28
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Has anyone tried the Kemper Amp Profiler or the Fractal Audio Axe FX II?
I own a Kemper, and it's awesome. Any specific questions?
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Old 07-26-2015, 02:08 PM   #29
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What is your current in the box set up?
Signal path from guitar?
Thanks Rogie for sharing your setup.

I'm running straight into a 2i4, and then into Amplitube. I've tried to like it, and I've demoed some of the other amp sims out there too, and I just don't think I'm going to run with one of these. At least not one of the plugin types.

I have a bunch of pedals in the attic somewhere, including a DS 1, so I must dig them out and have a go. Completely forgot about them TBH. More noise though in the path.

Cheers!

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I own a Kemper, and it's awesome. Any specific questions?
I've got to admit I think I'm sold. And I love the physical, hands on approach. Real knobs and buttons!

Yes, one question if I may. How does the input/output work, for getting into your DAW? And can I run a dry part out too, via the Kemper, and back in onto a separate track?
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Old 07-26-2015, 03:32 PM   #30
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I used to use a Boogie V-Twin (clean channel) to fatten/warm the sound, but actually these days I prefer the clarity and transparency of going direct, and using EQ and amp sims to sculp the sound.
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Old 07-26-2015, 06:42 PM   #31
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I own a Kemper, and it's awesome.
I'll second that!!

I love my cosmic toaster...


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