Old 11-11-2014, 03:39 AM   #1
cubic13
Human being with feelings
 
cubic13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Near Serre-Ponçon lake, french Alps
Posts: 855
Default Invert phase display issue (SOLVED)

Hi, all

Seems that there is a problem with it. Repro :

I record a bass guitar item (I took a bass, as 50-100 Hz notes need less zooming than 2 kHz ones...) on a track with an audio input. Once done, I duplicate the track and see, after zooming, that the two waveforms are strictly aligned time wise and have the same amplitude. So, I solo the two tracks and do a playback : the bass line is played with a level of about 3dB more than if there was only one track. Fine... From which, two cases :

1) After an item selection, I invert the item phase of the first track (Item settings > Invert phase command).
2) Playing back, there is no sound and the master meter level shows no signal, as expected.
3) Visually, the waveform of the first track item is the exact inverse version of the second track one, relatively to the zero level line.

All is well. Now, the second case :

1) I cancel the item phase inversion of the first track and instead, use the TCP Phase invert button of this track.
2) Playing back, there is also no sound and the master meter still shows no signal.
3) Visually, the waveforms displayed are exactly the same : in other words, there is no sign of a phase inversion being applied on the first track.

Not a biggie, I admit, but still... Is there a reason why, despite the first track phase inversion being applied and working, there is no visual display of it ?
__________________
DAW: Ryzen 3700X|Asus X-470Pro|32Gb|2 SSD512(M2)+1024|W10Pro(64)|RME Fireface UCX+ADA8200
Soft: Reaper|Cubase 10|Emulator X3 & several other VSTis (2 bridged)...
Gear: VMK-188+|MPD32|ME30P|Korg 05R/W|Roland D110|Yamaha TX802|Pre-MIDI stuff...
cubic13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2014, 06:07 AM   #2
ambiguation
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 125
Default

I may be missing something here, but I wouldn't expect a waveform display to change as a result of a TCP operation, just as I wouldn't expect the waveform to get smaller if I reduced the track's fader.

Your description reads to me that REAPER is operating correctly.
__________________
-- Dave
ambiguation is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2014, 07:23 AM   #3
cubic13
Human being with feelings
 
cubic13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Near Serre-Ponçon lake, french Alps
Posts: 855
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ambiguation View Post
I may be missing something here, but I wouldn't expect a waveform display to change as a result of a TCP operation, just as I wouldn't expect the waveform to get smaller if I reduced the track's fader.

Your description reads to me that REAPER is operating correctly.
Ok, it makes sense, somehow. Just wondering, at this point, why the item based phase inversion is echoed visually and the track one is not. And I just checked it : the associated .wav file is not modified when saving the project, whether the phase inversion is track based or item based, so there is no destructive/undestructive distinction involved.

So, what is the explanation of the difference between the two way of displaying basically the same processing ?
__________________
DAW: Ryzen 3700X|Asus X-470Pro|32Gb|2 SSD512(M2)+1024|W10Pro(64)|RME Fireface UCX+ADA8200
Soft: Reaper|Cubase 10|Emulator X3 & several other VSTis (2 bridged)...
Gear: VMK-188+|MPD32|ME30P|Korg 05R/W|Roland D110|Yamaha TX802|Pre-MIDI stuff...
cubic13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2014, 07:28 AM   #4
karbomusic
Human being with feelings
 
karbomusic's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29,260
Default

Quote:
why the item based phase inversion is echoed visually and the track one is not.
The first example is a change of the item itself (whether it is playing or not) so it makes sense to reflect that change.

The second scenario modifies the audio stream on the fly as it passes through they audio pipeline which is not a change in the item itself.

Technically the result same during playback but conceptually it makes more sense to not change the waveform when clicking the polarity button because that is "post" item.
__________________
Music is what feelings sound like.
karbomusic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2014, 07:46 AM   #5
cubic13
Human being with feelings
 
cubic13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Near Serre-Ponçon lake, french Alps
Posts: 855
Default

Ok, so the track phase button acts more or less like a fader position change, if I understand well and as ambiguation suggested, at the very end of the whole audio flow.

Will have to keep this in mind : all the visual display is actually based on the items, not on the tracks which contain them. I more or less know it already, but I still have problems with the concept, apparently...

Let's say it's solved, somehow. Thanks, karbo...
__________________
DAW: Ryzen 3700X|Asus X-470Pro|32Gb|2 SSD512(M2)+1024|W10Pro(64)|RME Fireface UCX+ADA8200
Soft: Reaper|Cubase 10|Emulator X3 & several other VSTis (2 bridged)...
Gear: VMK-188+|MPD32|ME30P|Korg 05R/W|Roland D110|Yamaha TX802|Pre-MIDI stuff...
cubic13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2014, 07:53 AM   #6
karbomusic
Human being with feelings
 
karbomusic's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29,260
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cubic13 View Post
Ok, so the track phase button acts more or less like a fader position change, if I understand well and as ambiguation suggested, at the very end of the whole audio flow.

Will have to keep this in mind : all the visual display is actually based on the items, not on the tracks which contain them. I more or less know it already, but I still have problems with the concept, apparently...

Let's say it's solved, somehow. Thanks, karbo...
You can almost think of it as if it were analog where the item change would be the same as flipping it on the way in, and the TCP button for flipping it on the way out. Of course in DAW land we can make the decision post record and so on.
__________________
Music is what feelings sound like.
karbomusic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2014, 08:04 AM   #7
cubic13
Human being with feelings
 
cubic13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Near Serre-Ponçon lake, french Alps
Posts: 855
Default

Noted ! Thanks again...
__________________
DAW: Ryzen 3700X|Asus X-470Pro|32Gb|2 SSD512(M2)+1024|W10Pro(64)|RME Fireface UCX+ADA8200
Soft: Reaper|Cubase 10|Emulator X3 & several other VSTis (2 bridged)...
Gear: VMK-188+|MPD32|ME30P|Korg 05R/W|Roland D110|Yamaha TX802|Pre-MIDI stuff...
cubic13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2014, 09:41 AM   #8
Fergler
Human being with feelings
 
Fergler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 5,207
Default

More disturbing is the fact that it still says 'Phase Inverted' and 'Phase Normal'.

It's POLARITY.
Cockos please rename the damn button it's been years spreading misinformation lolz.
Fergler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2014, 05:42 PM   #9
Reno.thestraws
Human being with feelings
 
Reno.thestraws's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Belgium
Posts: 10,474
Default

Item and tracks are INDEPENDANT from each other. It's the REaPER way of doing things.

Tracks are just summing buss receiving signals from items, other tracks or inputs.
__________________
http://www.residenceemilia.com
Reno.thestraws is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2014, 10:28 AM   #10
shoyoninja
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 431
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fergler View Post
More disturbing is the fact that it still says 'Phase Inverted' and 'Phase Normal'.

It's POLARITY.
Cockos please rename the damn button it's been years spreading misinformation lolz.
Since it's AC signal, phase is more adequate. There is no absolute polarity to be switched if there is no DC component. All there is to it is if the source and load are in phase or not .
shoyoninja is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2014, 09:03 AM   #11
MixingWizard
Human being with feelings
 
MixingWizard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 16
Default

It make sense to me how it is. But one thing I'd really love to see is when the phase button is pressed on a track in a folder, the combined waveform overview on the folder shows it visually. I absolutely love this feature for lining up double tracks and drums.
MixingWizard is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:10 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.