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11-11-2014, 03:39 AM
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#1
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Near Serre-Ponçon lake, french Alps
Posts: 855
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Invert phase display issue (SOLVED)
Hi, all
Seems that there is a problem with it. Repro :
I record a bass guitar item (I took a bass, as 50-100 Hz notes need less zooming than 2 kHz ones...) on a track with an audio input. Once done, I duplicate the track and see, after zooming, that the two waveforms are strictly aligned time wise and have the same amplitude. So, I solo the two tracks and do a playback : the bass line is played with a level of about 3dB more than if there was only one track. Fine... From which, two cases :
1) After an item selection, I invert the item phase of the first track (Item settings > Invert phase command).
2) Playing back, there is no sound and the master meter level shows no signal, as expected.
3) Visually, the waveform of the first track item is the exact inverse version of the second track one, relatively to the zero level line.
All is well. Now, the second case :
1) I cancel the item phase inversion of the first track and instead, use the TCP Phase invert button of this track.
2) Playing back, there is also no sound and the master meter still shows no signal.
3) Visually, the waveforms displayed are exactly the same : in other words, there is no sign of a phase inversion being applied on the first track.
Not a biggie, I admit, but still... Is there a reason why, despite the first track phase inversion being applied and working, there is no visual display of it ?
__________________
DAW: Ryzen 3700X|Asus X-470Pro|32Gb|2 SSD512(M2)+1024|W10Pro(64)|RME Fireface UCX+ADA8200
Soft: Reaper|Cubase 10|Emulator X3 & several other VSTis (2 bridged)...
Gear: VMK-188+|MPD32|ME30P|Korg 05R/W|Roland D110|Yamaha TX802|Pre-MIDI stuff...
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11-11-2014, 06:07 AM
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#2
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 125
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I may be missing something here, but I wouldn't expect a waveform display to change as a result of a TCP operation, just as I wouldn't expect the waveform to get smaller if I reduced the track's fader.
Your description reads to me that REAPER is operating correctly.
__________________
-- Dave
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11-11-2014, 07:23 AM
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#3
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Near Serre-Ponçon lake, french Alps
Posts: 855
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ambiguation
I may be missing something here, but I wouldn't expect a waveform display to change as a result of a TCP operation, just as I wouldn't expect the waveform to get smaller if I reduced the track's fader.
Your description reads to me that REAPER is operating correctly.
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Ok, it makes sense, somehow. Just wondering, at this point, why the item based phase inversion is echoed visually and the track one is not. And I just checked it : the associated .wav file is not modified when saving the project, whether the phase inversion is track based or item based, so there is no destructive/undestructive distinction involved.
So, what is the explanation of the difference between the two way of displaying basically the same processing ?
__________________
DAW: Ryzen 3700X|Asus X-470Pro|32Gb|2 SSD512(M2)+1024|W10Pro(64)|RME Fireface UCX+ADA8200
Soft: Reaper|Cubase 10|Emulator X3 & several other VSTis (2 bridged)...
Gear: VMK-188+|MPD32|ME30P|Korg 05R/W|Roland D110|Yamaha TX802|Pre-MIDI stuff...
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11-11-2014, 07:28 AM
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#4
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29,260
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Quote:
why the item based phase inversion is echoed visually and the track one is not.
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The first example is a change of the item itself (whether it is playing or not) so it makes sense to reflect that change.
The second scenario modifies the audio stream on the fly as it passes through they audio pipeline which is not a change in the item itself.
Technically the result same during playback but conceptually it makes more sense to not change the waveform when clicking the polarity button because that is "post" item.
__________________
Music is what feelings sound like.
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11-11-2014, 07:46 AM
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#5
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Near Serre-Ponçon lake, french Alps
Posts: 855
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Ok, so the track phase button acts more or less like a fader position change, if I understand well and as ambiguation suggested, at the very end of the whole audio flow.
Will have to keep this in mind : all the visual display is actually based on the items, not on the tracks which contain them. I more or less know it already, but I still have problems with the concept, apparently...
Let's say it's solved, somehow. Thanks, karbo...
__________________
DAW: Ryzen 3700X|Asus X-470Pro|32Gb|2 SSD512(M2)+1024|W10Pro(64)|RME Fireface UCX+ADA8200
Soft: Reaper|Cubase 10|Emulator X3 & several other VSTis (2 bridged)...
Gear: VMK-188+|MPD32|ME30P|Korg 05R/W|Roland D110|Yamaha TX802|Pre-MIDI stuff...
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11-11-2014, 07:53 AM
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#6
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29,260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cubic13
Ok, so the track phase button acts more or less like a fader position change, if I understand well and as ambiguation suggested, at the very end of the whole audio flow.
Will have to keep this in mind : all the visual display is actually based on the items, not on the tracks which contain them. I more or less know it already, but I still have problems with the concept, apparently...
Let's say it's solved, somehow. Thanks, karbo...
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You can almost think of it as if it were analog where the item change would be the same as flipping it on the way in, and the TCP button for flipping it on the way out. Of course in DAW land we can make the decision post record and so on.
__________________
Music is what feelings sound like.
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11-11-2014, 08:04 AM
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#7
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Near Serre-Ponçon lake, french Alps
Posts: 855
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Noted ! Thanks again...
__________________
DAW: Ryzen 3700X|Asus X-470Pro|32Gb|2 SSD512(M2)+1024|W10Pro(64)|RME Fireface UCX+ADA8200
Soft: Reaper|Cubase 10|Emulator X3 & several other VSTis (2 bridged)...
Gear: VMK-188+|MPD32|ME30P|Korg 05R/W|Roland D110|Yamaha TX802|Pre-MIDI stuff...
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11-11-2014, 09:41 AM
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#8
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 5,207
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More disturbing is the fact that it still says 'Phase Inverted' and 'Phase Normal'.
It's POLARITY.
Cockos please rename the damn button it's been years spreading misinformation lolz.
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11-11-2014, 05:42 PM
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#9
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Belgium
Posts: 10,474
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Item and tracks are INDEPENDANT from each other. It's the REaPER way of doing things.
Tracks are just summing buss receiving signals from items, other tracks or inputs.
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12-22-2014, 10:28 AM
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#10
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 431
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fergler
More disturbing is the fact that it still says 'Phase Inverted' and 'Phase Normal'.
It's POLARITY.
Cockos please rename the damn button it's been years spreading misinformation lolz.
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Since it's AC signal, phase is more adequate. There is no absolute polarity to be switched if there is no DC component. All there is to it is if the source and load are in phase or not .
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12-23-2014, 09:03 AM
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#11
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 16
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It make sense to me how it is. But one thing I'd really love to see is when the phase button is pressed on a track in a folder, the combined waveform overview on the folder shows it visually. I absolutely love this feature for lining up double tracks and drums.
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