lowering (controlling) volume on extended note

[dmoss74]

hi,

i'm looking to adjust the volume (velocity) of particular notes (sax vst) after it's been recorded. unfortunately, my expression pedal (yamaha fc-7) doesn't play well with my keyboard yet. i have to reverse the polarity to get it to function properly.

is there a way i can gradually lower the velocity, before having to make it audio, and then automate it?

[DarkStar]

It depends - what VSTi are you using?

Can you automate its volume, with a Reaper VST parameter automation envelope or directly with MIDI CC messages?

[Tod]

^^^^^ What DS says along with some other info.

Originally Posted by dmoss74

is there a way i can gradually lower the velocity, before having to make it audio, and then automate it?

No you can't gradually lower the velocity, velocity is a one time controller per note. However you can easily draw in CC data such as CC7 (volume) or CC11 which is Expression.

First, if you haven't already done so, go into Preferences>Editing Behavior>MIDI Editor and set the Events per quarter note shown in the picture below. I've got mine set to 256 which might be a little high, 128 might be better for you.



Then double click on the MIDI item that has the note(s) you want to have CC11 Expression on and select CC11 in a CC lane at the bottom. Then you can Left-Click-Drag in the CC lane to draw in the CC enents. Once you've drawn them in you can use Shift-Left-Click-Drag to draw straight lines. In the Gif below you can see me using Shift-Left-Click-Drag to sort of make a curve out of it.

[gofer]

Originally Posted by Tod

First, if you haven't already done so, go into Preferences>Editing Behavior>MIDI Editor and set the Events per quarter note shown in the picture below. I've got mine set to 256 which might be a little high, 128 might be better for you.

...or you try if the defaults aren't getting you there just fine.


You have drawn about 1400 events in that capture. On a CC11 lane (7bit = 128 values) you need no more than 128 events for a maximum resoulution ramp (from 127 to 0). Which means more than 1200 events are actually duplicates of the event before and do not cause a change whatsoever - just tell the receiving side over and over again something it already knew.
All you get is the "comfort" of a somewhat smoother looking ramp at the expense of masses of redundant messages. A long ramp on a 7bit lane is of course one of the scenarios which shows your setting at its weakest. It does make more sense on a 14bit lane or for much quicker changes, but I think 128 events per quarter is already overkill with debatable benefit.

My old SY85 would immediately start waving the white flag if you'd send her that ramp to chew

[Tod]

Originally Posted by gofer

...or you try if the defaults aren't getting you there just fine.

You have drawn about 1400 events in that capture. On a CC11 lane (7bit = 128 values) you need no more than 128 events for a maximum resoulution ramp (from 127 to 0). Which means more than 1200 events are actually duplicates of the event before and do not cause a change whatsoever - just tell the receiving side over and over again something it already knew.
All you get is the "comfort" of a somewhat smoother looking ramp at the expense of masses of redundant messages. A long ramp on a 7bit lane is of course one of the scenarios which shows your setting at its weakest. It does make more sense on a 14bit lane or for much quicker changes, but I think 128 events per quarter is already overkill with debatable benefit.

My old SY85 would immediately start waving the white flag if you'd send her that ramp to chew

Heh heh, did you not notice I mentioned to dmoss74 that 256 might be a bit much and maybe he should use 128.

Also there's a lot more to this but my thinking when someone is fairly new to the midi stuff, one step at a time is best.

For instance I do have DS's JS FX set up on my main #1 tool bar so that I can delete all redundant CC events. I've got one button set up to delete all redundant CC events and also one to delete selected redundant CC events. I use them all the time and I guess I should have done that here.

EDIT: I guess I was just more interested in showing dmoss74 how to do this.

[dmoss74]

thanks guys. all very helpful responses. this is the mr saxt vst, and it has to have a volume controller enabled to even work. i got this yamaha pedal, but like i said, it needs a polarity switching adapter to work correctly with my m audio keyboard/controller. i will switch out the volume to another controller, but that's going to be hard to manipulate (along with the mod wheel for vibrato) while actually playing notes.

but for now, i can do the volume adjustments after recording the initial track.

great vid there, tod.

thanks again.

[gofer]

As mentioned, I personally think 128 is already unnecessary overkill.

One step at a time, I agree with that.
Which is why I don't think it's a good idea to make it look like dmoss has to mess with this setting as the first step before he can begin to do what he is after. It's not a necessary step.

Your explanation of the actual thing is spot on and well done, but he could just simply try that first and then - in case his automation is audibly kinky - care for creating more events. I think with the default settings all he needs to do in order to get more events per timeframe is zoom in some.

EDIT: I mean to reply to Tod with the above.
dmoss, you absolutely should get some pedal going for that MrSax thing. Great piece of work, deserves it. Or even think about getting some breath controller mouthpiece hardware. I recently read about a new(ish?) "Breath to USB" hardware thingie, but forgot the name right now. That's is really the coolest way to play emulations of instruments you'd blow into in reality (after the real-deal wind controllers for those who can play them - I can't, for the live of me .

[dmoss74]

bloody hades. i opened up the track with the midi editor, select the expression "lane" for editing, but see no bar at the notes. what the heck am i doing wrong now? :lol

edit: nvm, i think i got it.

[gofer]

Nothing . It's all right. You get bars at the start of each note only for velocity. That's because velocity is a parameter that comes with each note (it transmits the info "how fast did the player press the key down - that's also why there is only one velocity per note) and is baked inseparably into each Note-On message.

Just draw some events in and listen. Of course you need to make sure cc11 (expression) is the controller which controls the parameter you want to move. I don't remember, but do think so. Best look it up in the SaxT manual. If you want to really get into it you'll want to automate several CC - for air pressure, lip pressure, growl, whatnot... plenty of interesting sound aspects to move in that thing IIRC.

[dmoss74]

Originally Posted by gofer

Nothing . It's all right. You get bars at the start of each note only for velocity. That's because velocity is a parameter that comes with each note (it transmits the info "how fast did the player press the key down - that's also why there is only one velocity per note) and is baked inseparably into each Note-On message.

Just draw some events in and listen. Of course you need to make sure cc11 (expression) is the controller which controls the parameter you want to move. I don't remember, but do think so. Best look it up in the SaxT manual. If you want to really get into it you'll want to automate several CC - for air pressure, lip pressure, growl, whatnot... plenty of interesting sound aspects to move in that thing IIRC.

baby steps here...and thanks again. this is all very helpful.

so, i opened the expression lane, and adjusted the last note, like i'd want it. however; upon playback, all notes before that have now been practically muted.

i'm ready to just pull hair at this point.

and again, no bars show up in the expression lane, but i can draw event automation in the empty lane. am i doing this wrong? do i have to draw an event for the whole track? i was hoping to just do specific notes.

[Tod]

Originally Posted by gofer

As mentioned, I personally think 128 is already unnecessary overkill.

Actually gofer, in much of my midi programming I use some very steep curves. This is where having adequate CC events available can be important. Whether 128 events per quarter note is too much could be debatable, but definitely the default (32) can be very limited.

One step at a time, I agree with that.
Which is why I don't think it's a good idea to make it look like dmoss has to mess with this setting as the first step before he can begin to do what he is after. It's not a necessary step.

No not necessary, but a good thing to know.

Your explanation of the actual thing is spot on and well done, but he could just simply try that first and then - in case his automation is audibly kinky - care for creating more events. I think with the default settings all he needs to do in order to get more events per timeframe is zoom in some.

I know that you know a lot more about Reaper than I do gofer, but are you saying you can Zoom in and you get more events per quarter note?

That's not the case with me.

EDIT: I mean to reply to Tod with the above.
dmoss, you absolutely should get some pedal going for that MrSax thing. Great piece of work, deserves it. Or even think about getting some breath controller mouthpiece hardware. I recently read about a new(ish?) "Breath to USB" hardware thingie, but forgot the name right now. That's is really the coolest way to play emulations of instruments you'd blow into in reality (after the real-deal wind controllers for those who can play them - I can't, for the live of me .

Hey dmoss74, what gofer says about the breath controller is good. Breath controllers can give you a whole new dimension for controlling wind and brass instruments. It's been a while since I checked out the price but I don't think they're any more expensive that any other controller besides maybe a simple sustain pedal. I could be wrong though.

[Tod]

Originally Posted by dmoss74

baby steps here...and thanks again. this is all very helpful.

so, i opened the expression lane, and adjusted the last note, like i'd want it. however; upon playback, all notes before that have now been practically muted.

i'm ready to just pull hair at this point.

and again, no bars show up in the expression lane, but i can draw event automation in the empty lane. am i doing this wrong? do i have to draw an event for the whole track? i was hoping to just do specific notes.

Hi dmoss74, yes you have to place a CC event at the front of the item, before any notes, with the value that you want your notes to play back at until you get to the place where you apply the ascending CCs.

EDIT: If you look at my video above again you will see I've placed a CC event before the note.

[dmoss74]

Originally Posted by Tod

Hi dmoss74, yes you have to place a CC event at the front of the item, before any notes, with the value that you want your notes to play back at until you get to the place where you apply the ascending CCs.

EDIT: If you look at my video above again you will see I've placed a CC event before the note.

got it. thanks. that'll be some interesting drawing i'll have to do. i'm looking into that breath controller thing. looks interesting, but it's $100.00. i'll probably end up getting one, but it ain't cheap.

[Tod]

Originally Posted by dmoss74

got it. thanks. that'll be some interesting drawing i'll have to do. i'm looking into that breath controller thing. looks interesting, but it's $100.00. i'll probably end up getting one, but it ain't cheap.

Hi dmoss74, I would be very interested in what you find out and what you get. I had one once but it didn't do much but control the volume a little and the vibrato a lot, if I remember correctly. With this old brain it's hard to know. That was with all midi hardware, they didn't have VSTis in those days.

[ashcat_lt]

How does an expression pedal have a polarity? We are talking about like a variable resistor or pot in something like a volume or wah pedal, right? Not just a switch like you'd use for a sustain pedal? Does it work backwards - so that maximum as at heel down - or not at all?

[Tod]

Originally Posted by ashcat_lt

How does an expression pedal have a polarity? We are talking about like a variable resistor or pot in something like a volume or wah pedal, right? Not just a switch like you'd use for a sustain pedal? Does it work backwards - so that maximum as at heel down - or not at all?

Hi ashcat, yes I suspect it just reverses the foot action and volume expression. Some synths and midi keyboards have polarity adjustments for their pedal inputs.

[dmoss74]

Originally Posted by ashcat_lt

How does an expression pedal have a polarity? We are talking about like a variable resistor or pot in something like a volume or wah pedal, right? Not just a switch like you'd use for a sustain pedal? Does it work backwards - so that maximum as at heel down - or not at all?

it's just an adapter that swaps the wires on the plug. i guess yamaha pedals don't play nice with other manufacturer's keyboards.

this is what i ordered.

http://music.ashbysolutions.com/misc.htm

i could have made one myself, but i'm too busy (read, lazy), so i just got one of these.

[dmoss74]

Originally Posted by Tod

Hi dmoss74, I would be very interested in what you find out and what you get. I had one once but it didn't do much but control the volume a little and the vibrato a lot, if I remember correctly. With this old brain it's hard to know. That was with all midi hardware, they didn't have VSTis in those days.

this is what the tecontrol can do.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnCMnXxxous

[Tod]

Originally Posted by dmoss74

this is what the tecontrol can do.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnCMnXxxous

Yeah, that guys pretty good with it.