Old 02-05-2015, 02:13 PM   #1
jonespnice
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Default How can K-Meters help me mix better?

I've seen, on the forum, people talking about setting up your meters so that it will be like a K-14 or K-20 meter but my question is can someone explain how K-Meters can help you mix better?
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Old 02-05-2015, 03:28 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by jonespnice View Post
I've seen, on the forum, people talking about setting up your meters so that it will be like a K-14 or K-20 meter but my question is can someone explain how K-Meters can help you mix better?
they cant. it helps if you have a reliable volume, everytime the same. you can judge better on dynamics and frequency response. and you are a little bit forced to keep dynamics intact.

so in fact its kind of a framework for mixing, it doesnt directly help you mixing.
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Old 02-05-2015, 03:36 PM   #3
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they cant. it helps if you have a reliable volume, everytime the same. you can judge better on dynamics and frequency response. and you are a little bit forced to keep dynamics intact.

so in fact its kind of a framework for mixing, it doesnt directly help you mixing.
Do you have to use 83db for your monitors, that seems kind of loud?
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Old 02-05-2015, 07:22 PM   #4
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jonespnice
The music down below was mixed and at a volume you could talk between two people at a normal volume and the mix would not interfere with the conversation.

Make your own opinion?

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Old 02-05-2015, 08:31 PM   #5
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jonespnice
The music down below was mixed and at a volume you could talk between two people at a normal volume and the mix would not interfere with the conversation.

Make your own opinion?

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Very nice mix, that's the volume I usually mix at that's why I'm confused by the K-Meter (83db = 0db on the meter), why not have the K-Meter calibrated to slower volume? Is there an advantage having the volume at 83db? Does it have something to do with the way we hear (Fletcher Munson curve)?
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Old 02-05-2015, 09:05 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by jonespnice View Post
Do you have to use 83db for your monitors, that seems kind of loud?
Bob Katz's justification for 83 db (which he calls 85 db in this paper, for reasons unclear to me):

Quote:
In 1983, as workshops chairman of the AES Convention, I invited Tomlinson
Holman of Lucasfilm to demonstrate the sound techniques used in creating the Star
Wars films. Dolby systems engineers labored for two days to calibrate the
reproduction system in New York's flagship Ziegfeld theatre. Over 1000 convention
attendees filled the theatre center section. At the end of the demonstration, Tom
asked for a show of hands. “How many of you thought the sound was too loud?”
About 4 hands were raised. “How many thought it was too soft?” No hands. “How
many thought it was just right?” At least 996 audio engineers raised their hands.

This is an incredible testament to the effectiveness of the 85 dB at 0 VU standard
originally proposed by Dolby's Ioan Allen in the mid-70's. It’s stood the test of time.
Dialogue, music and effects fall into a natural perspective with an excellent signal-to-
noise ratio and headroom.
http://www.aes.org/technical/documen...s.cfm?docID=65

Not a good enough reason to monitor at a level that's uncomfortable for you, imho, but my mixes suck, so there's that.
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Old 02-05-2015, 09:17 PM   #7
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room size is a factor in db level. 85db may be very loud in a small room. notice that the posted article excerpt references places like lucasfilm and the ziegfeld theatre. not like mixing in your bedroom or an apartment.

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Old 02-05-2015, 09:21 PM   #8
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From the man himself:

http://www.digido.com/how-to-make-be...gs-part-2.html

Also, I've created a theme which includes K System graphics on the master meter, calibration files (from Bob's website), calibration project for REAPER and full instructions on setting up REAPER for the K System. The link to my theme is in my signature.

I've been using this system for around a decade now and it works well.

The 83dB figure can be dropped if it is too loud. I actually do mix lower fairly often (0dB RMS on the meters at 75dB in mix position works for me).

Keep in mind, the more accurate your monitors, the quieter 83dB seems subjectively. This is because peaks and dips in the response curve can lead to frequencies that are louder than the average reference. This is also why more accurate systems generally tend to be much less fatiguing to listen to for extended periods.
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Old 02-05-2015, 09:22 PM   #9
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K metering won't make you personally a better mixer, you skill as a mixer is what it is.

Using the K system will however help your mix dynamics, at least it did with mine.

The biggest advantage i've found is the consistancy across mixes that it brings.

If your doing an EP or an album and use the K system all your mixes will be in the same ballpark sonically and dynamically and the album should have a more coherent vibe to it.

It also helps if your going to have the album professionaly mastered, your mastering engineer will love you for it and you should end up with a better product overall.

Thats been my experience anyway, but, as always ymmv.

EDIT: As for the 83db thing, i find it too loud most of the time as well, so i have marks on my monitor controller at 83 & 73 db, i mix mostly at 73 but listen for short periods at 83 as well.
I think the trick is to find a level that you are comfotable with and use that consistantly, over time you get to know how things should sound at that volume so you know quickly if something is wrong in the mix.

Cheers
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Old 02-05-2015, 09:25 PM   #10
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+1 to everything you've said there Wolffman. That has been my experience too.
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Old 02-05-2015, 09:45 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by ReaDave View Post
Also, I've created a theme which includes K System graphics on the master meter, calibration files (from Bob's website), calibration project for REAPER and full instructions on setting up REAPER for the K System. The link to my theme is in my signature.
I downloaded it a few days ago, thanks a lot.
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Old 02-05-2015, 09:49 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Wolffman View Post
K metering won't make you personally a better mixer, you skill as a mixer is what it is.

Using the K system will however help your mix dynamics, at least it did with mine.

The biggest advantage i've found is the consistancy across mixes that it brings.

If your doing an EP or an album and use the K system all your mixes will be in the same ballpark sonically and dynamically and the album should have a more coherent vibe to it.

It also helps if your going to have the album professionaly mastered, your mastering engineer will love you for it and you should end up with a better product overall.

Thats been my experience anyway, but, as always ymmv.

EDIT: As for the 83db thing, i find it too loud most of the time as well, so i have marks on my monitor controller at 83 & 73 db, i mix mostly at 73 but listen for short periods at 83 as well.
I think the trick is to find a level that you are comfotable with and use that consistantly, over time you get to know how things should sound at that volume so you know quickly if something is wrong in the mix.

Cheers
That's a very good explanation, I've never thought about it in the sense of having better volume consistency on an album that you might be mixing.
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Old 02-05-2015, 10:07 PM   #13
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I downloaded it a few days ago, thanks a lot.
You're welcome

Edit - Come to think of it, I seem to recall us talking about it before. I've just come out of hospital and the general anesthetic is still causing a little foggyness of the old memory cells!!
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Old 02-05-2015, 10:13 PM   #14
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Actually pleased you had a listen jonespnice
I like the topic you chose and I was interested in your feedback on my mix (selfishly) you being an independent.
I had read that mixing low was a great indicator of a good mix if you could get it sounding right.
I am a beginner at "The Mix"
I have the early event active monitors.
I am keenly reading the thread to see what the boffins come up with.

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Old 02-05-2015, 10:33 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by ReaDave View Post
I've just come out of hospital and the general anesthetic is still causing a little foggyness of the old memory cells!!
I trust everything is ok?
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Old 02-05-2015, 10:47 PM   #16
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I trust everything is ok?
Yeah. Thanks for asking Jeff.
I went in two days ago for hernia repair surgery so there's a little bit of discomfort at present but I generally keep pretty healthy so expect to recover pretty quickly.

EDIT - Been meaning to reply to your email too. Sorry about the delay but it has been one thing after another recently!!
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Old 02-05-2015, 11:00 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReaDave View Post
From the man himself:

http://www.digido.com/how-to-make-be...gs-part-2.html

Also, I've created a theme which includes K System graphics on the master meter, calibration files (from Bob's website), calibration project for REAPER and full instructions on setting up REAPER for the K System. The link to my theme is in my signature.

I've been using this system for around a decade now and it works well.

The 83dB figure can be dropped if it is too loud. I actually do mix lower fairly often (0dB RMS on the meters at 75dB in mix position works for me).

Keep in mind, the more accurate your monitors, the quieter 83dB seems subjectively. This is because peaks and dips in the response curve can lead to frequencies that are louder than the average reference. This is also why more accurate systems generally tend to be much less fatiguing to listen to for extended periods.
I've been looking at your theme, and the instructions have me doing things in the theme editor....which is not where it was back when you did this...Where is the theme editor now??
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Old 02-05-2015, 11:03 PM   #18
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I've been looking at your theme, and the instructions have me doing things in the theme editor....which is not where it was back when you did this...Where is the theme editor now??
The latest download of this theme has instructions that are compatible with the latest V4 version (4.76 at the time of this post) of REAPER.
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Old 02-05-2015, 11:08 PM   #19
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The latest download of this theme has instructions that are compatible with the latest V4 version (4.76 at the time of this post) of REAPER.
Oh...maybe that's the problem.... I am using a pre-release, and the theme editor seems to have been relocated......This one is one me.....
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Old 02-05-2015, 11:09 PM   #20
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Oh...maybe that's the problem.... I am using a pre-release, and the theme editor seems to have been relocated......This one is one me.....
I thought that might've been the case. Didn't want to break fight club rules though.
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Old 02-06-2015, 02:14 AM   #21
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It's kinda meant to be loud, so as to ensure that only the bits of music that are actually meant to be loud run all the way up the meter. It's also 83dB for a wall of pink noise not musical material. If you calibrate lower your mixes will be louder (hence using k14 or k12 for rock and pop material)

That said there's a good article here that explains further and also includes some suggestions for appropriate levels based on room volume: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/may1...monitoring.htm

I too found that the consistency of my mixing got way better once I calibrated the levels in my room .
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Old 02-06-2015, 04:05 AM   #22
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It is loud if you are ultramaximizing a track. It is for mixing. Not for mastering. Hopefully we won't be ultramaximizing in mastering either in a few years.
Also, you may want to use EBUR128 for level metering, not K system which is old.
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Old 02-06-2015, 05:58 PM   #23
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It is loud if you are ultramaximizing a track. It is for mixing. Not for mastering. Hopefully we won't be ultramaximizing in mastering either in a few years.
Also, you may want to use EBUR128 for level metering, not K system which is old.
R128 is something I also use when appropriate.
I stopped pandering to the loudness wars years ago. These days, I use brick wall limiters only to catch the odd stray peak that would cause an over.

I'm not trying to compete with commercial loudness and have no desire to destroy my mixes in such a manner. If people have to turn up their volume knob, GOOD! That's what it is for!! You want my songs in a playlist with other loud songs and don't like adjusting the volume? Bad luck!! complain to the ones destroying the enjoyment of high quality audio.
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Old 02-06-2015, 06:12 PM   #24
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It is loud if you are ultramaximizing a track. It is for mixing. Not for mastering. Hopefully we won't be ultramaximizing in mastering either in a few years.
Also, you may want to use EBUR128 for level metering, not K system which is old.
I've found that it is too loud for mixing myself, or my tracks are coasting at -28db.
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Old 02-20-2015, 02:56 PM   #25
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I've just discovered the K-Metering system to get a better grasp of mixing from analog to now ITB in digital,

I haven't read all the threads here but watched this video with the guy using the level meter plug in : http://youtu.be/7WigF9IDdcQ

Is it possible instead of the plug in - but to have this within Reapers Master levels / Master VU Meter?

My default set up in Reaper 4.77 Mac is very large master VU Meters at the side so I can always see the master fader levels, so this in 'K-Metering" would be very handy for me if this is possible in Reaper?

Have attached a pic
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Old 02-20-2015, 03:00 PM   #26
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Also going by this section of the video here : http://youtu.be/7WigF9IDdcQ?t=6m36s

Is there anything in Reaper that I need to change as in he is doing here to make Logic Mixer from "Exponential to "Section dB Linear" ?
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Old 02-20-2015, 03:11 PM   #27
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Quote:
Using the K system will however help your mix dynamics, at least it did with mine.
It doesn't for me but that's because my brain already has the scaling burned in from years of knowing 0dbFS != analog zero. I don't need the meters magically turning orange/red to let me know I'm above analog zero ITB.

I do however dig the SPL calibration portion due to consistency and known point of reference but all the metering, not so much. The best thing I ever did was calibrate SPL and move my volume knob to an external physical knob.
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Old 02-20-2015, 05:49 PM   #28
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I mix at 90db. Depends on the style. Rock mixes work much better for me with some punch.
Quote:
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Do you have to use 83db for your monitors, that seems kind of loud?
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Old 02-21-2015, 10:18 AM   #29
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1) Room size has nothing to do with it, you calibrate for the SPL at the listening position. Doesn't matter that it will be quieter if you move further away, because you won't.

B) Realize that Katz quote says 85dbSPL = 0dbVU, which for most of us will put 0dbfs somewhere over 100db! But...

III) ...That's so that the big cataclysmic explosion will really shake your seat and you'll still be able to hear the hero whisper sweet nothings to the damsel. Theater audiences demand much greater dynamic range than most of us will tolerate in modern music. If you've actually calibrated as per B) above, your music is never going to be below 85dbSPL at mix position. That is loud! I don't actually calibrate my monitors, just turn them where it feels right, and up and down here and there, and on different speakers, and on headphones, and anything else I can think of to change perspective once in a while.
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Old 02-21-2015, 12:35 PM   #30
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I understood Mr. Katz that way, that you make the monitors loud, because if you have them loud, you probably mix lower. and if you do that, you can achieve more dynamics, because not all instruments hit the 0db. I used it that way, because this 85db-thing ... well, it was too loud for me. much too loud.

in movies there is a somewhat set standard afaik. -23db RMS? so the result is, that you have in a cinema not that disgusting squashed sound. you can hear clearly hear Captain Kirk talking to Spock and then comes the Romulanian starship out of nowhere ... when you are back in your seat you know what dynamic is and why the monitors should be good loud that you keep your dynamics intact.

that goes not for Motörhead ... has something to do with a little bit of a lack in dynamics. I like Motörhead, but thats here not an really helpful example.

so, making it louder and mixing lower helps a lot. and of course it has something to do with Fletcher/Munson.
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Old 02-21-2015, 01:10 PM   #31
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85dB SPL doesn't sound that loud to me, never has, not even back when I could actually hear. More seriously, even though I always seemed to be able to hear and detect things many of my friends couldn't, my level of discomfort with a higher volume typically seemed less.

In other words I think there may be a varying sensitivity to what is deemed loud completely outside of hearing loss.
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Old 02-21-2015, 08:38 PM   #32
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Quote:
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1)

B) Realize that Katz quote says 85dbSPL = 0dbVU, which for most of us will put 0dbfs somewhere over 100db! But...
Understand:
- 0dbfs in Analog is calibrated per spec to -18dBfs digital. So, you are not over 100dB.

- Katz' system encouraged K-20 for Cinema, K-14 for Music, and K-12 for Broadcast. Now, many hot dance or rock mixes are typically mixed at "K-6", if there were such a thing. The purpose of the K14-K12 standards are to put more dynamic range in our mixes. So, if one mixes to K-14 (which I typically only do for more classical, acoustic, or natural mixes), your RMS level is 14dB below full scale. For Pop-Rock, I cheat and usually come in around K-10 to K-1l. (i.e. I'm hitting +3 to +4 on a K14 meter.)

- I roughly calibrated my playback monitor system to 83dBa. I have mixed this way for a couple years, and find it to be perfect for when I am evaluating the end of a mix session. For long sessions (and especially for editing), I mix at lower volumes. But when I really want to test how things are all sitting and coming together. I find that 83 (SPL meter) is perfect.

- Katz explains in his book why the former 85dB is now the current 83dB. But I cannot remember the explanation right now...
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Old 02-22-2015, 01:56 PM   #33
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Quote:
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Understand:
- 0dbfs in Analog is calibrated per spec to -18dBfs digital. So, you are not over 100dB...
By which you mean 0dbVU = -18dbfs? 85+18 > 100
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Old 02-24-2015, 03:19 AM   #34
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Just looking back at the replies to this, and bumping my response.....

Is there anyway to do the K-12 K-14 or K-20 settings to Reapers built in master fader without using the K-Meter plug in?

I would buy the K-Meter plug in, but I have my main master fader levels large within my RPP projects so it would mean 2 x master level meters
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Old 02-24-2015, 03:47 AM   #35
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This thread is old but it covers how to properly set up your master meters in reaper to use the K system.

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=32850

Cheers
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