Old 01-28-2017, 08:40 PM   #1
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Default v5.33pre6 - January 28 2017

v5.33pre6 - January 28 2017
+ Stretch markers: fix bugs relating to multiple stretch markers very close to eachother and close to item start [p=1793234]
+ Take audio accessors: detect changes to stretch markers
+ macOS: fix docked+hidden transport resize issue
# Stretch markers: fixed reverse take behavior for nonlooping items
# spectral edit: new edits default to 0-22khz
# spectral edits: update audio accessor hash
# spectrogram: fix display with take polarity inverted
# spectrogram: optimized calculation

Full changelog - Latest pre-releases
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Old 01-29-2017, 12:24 AM   #2
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Wondering if it is possible to have the control knobs for the spectral edit sit outside the edit selection (or some other solution) since if you wanted to fine edit a small selection (even at max zoom) you would have to keep resizing (until the relevant knob appears) in order to adjust compression etc. (unless there is a setting I am unaware of?)
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Old 01-29-2017, 12:34 AM   #3
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This latest change really messed up some things:

- For some reason when in Midi Edit mode, loops don't loop end marker is not considered anymore, so I can't edit and loop anymore. (ok for some reason SYNC EDITOR TRANSPORT TO PROJECT TRANSPORT was deselected, and I haven't changed that).

- Also, not related to this specific pre, but not far behind, I have Program Changes on tracks that shouldn't have ANY program change. The Program change is possibly from another track. This occurs in Project view and not in edit view... For this one, I haven't found why in project view it changes my keyboard's patch with no PC event. It's in solo on that track and it just happens in project view.... Annoying is not the word.

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Old 01-29-2017, 01:18 AM   #4
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Frequency range of the spectral edits are weirds. It's Impossible to set a range from 0 - 100Hz

should be non linear
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Old 01-29-2017, 02:53 AM   #5
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Wondering if it is possible to have the control knobs for the spectral edit sit outside the edit selection (or some other solution) since if you wanted to fine edit a small selection (even at max zoom) you would have to keep resizing (until the relevant knob appears) in order to adjust compression etc. (unless there is a setting I am unaware of?)
Yeah.. Maybe they could float of say the top right corner outside the edit area.

I wonder too if it's possible later on to expose these in actions so we can control any selected edit windows all at once via midi CCs/mousewheel/OSC.

Be nice to also expose alongside these the spectrogram view settings so we can more easily zoom in to certain frequencies etc.

At some point..
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Old 01-29-2017, 04:06 AM   #6
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I see the maximum frequency of the spectrogram as half of the item sample rate. I don't know why. For example I insert a 44.1 Khz file and the frequency I see in a spectral edit goes from 0 to 22050 Hz only.

I agree with the knobs to be moved outside the rectangle, and also maybe only visible when mouse is over the spectral edit area

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Old 01-29-2017, 04:14 AM   #7
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In spectrogram mode I'm getting 2 pictures instead of 1 on mono files.., and also why is Reapers gui fps still so laggy and glitchy on macOS 10.12.3..?, thanks.

.

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Old 01-29-2017, 04:14 AM   #8
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Wondering if it is possible to have the control knobs for the spectral edit sit outside the edit selection (or some other solution) since if you wanted to fine edit a small selection (even at max zoom) you would have to keep resizing (until the relevant knob appears) in order to adjust compression etc. (unless there is a setting I am unaware of?)
Totally agree.
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Old 01-29-2017, 04:16 AM   #9
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I see the maximum frequency of the spectrogram as half of the item sample rate. I don't know why. For example I insert a 44.1 Khz file and the frequency I see in a spectral edit goes from 0 to 22050 Hz only.

I agree with the knobs to be moved outside the rectangle, and also maybe only visible when mouse is over the spectral edit area
Thats normal, 44.1 does not have actual 44100 hz of frequency data , max recorded frequency on 44.1khz is 22khz (check out nyquist frequency and stuff if you are interested)
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Old 01-29-2017, 04:57 AM   #10
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Thats normal, 44.1 does not have actual 44100 hz of frequency data , max recorded frequency on 44.1khz is 22khz (check out nyquist frequency and stuff if you are interested)
ah of course! I've just woke up sorry haha
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Old 01-29-2017, 05:17 AM   #11
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In spectrogram mode I'm getting 2 pictures instead of 1 on mono files.., and also why is Reapers gui fps still so laggy and glitchy on macOS 10.12.3..?, thanks.

.

.
Have you got it to show both spectrogram and peak/wave?

Also. Make sure it's a wav file for now. Other types of files, mp3 etc might not be optimised yet. And do a rebuild of the peaks either via actions or menus at the top (forgot which one at the mo)
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Old 01-29-2017, 05:39 AM   #12
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Have you got it to show both spectrogram and peak/wave?

Also. Make sure it's a wav file for now. Other types of files, mp3 etc might not be optimised yet. And do a rebuild of the peaks either via actions or menus at the top (forgot which one at the mo)

Yes i am only using wav files and hey are mono, so when on peaks or spectral peaks it shows the normal one wav mono image but when i change it to spectrogram it then shows 2 spectrogram images instead of just 1.

.
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Old 01-29-2017, 05:50 AM   #13
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Yes i am only using wav files and hey are mono, so when on peaks or spectral peaks it shows the normal one wav mono image but when i change it to spectrogram it then shows 2 spectrogram images instead of just 1.

.
Not sure what that is then sorry!

Maybe take a screenshot of how it looks and post it. Might help Justin potentially.
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Old 01-29-2017, 06:00 AM   #14
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Default Spectrogram.

I think the main thing for me (which is probably being worked on) is to find a frequency scale that gets the most out of a typical spectrum.

Heda mentions some good ones in the last pre here
http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...1&postcount=17

Even with the log scale slider, the actual main frequencies of the sound just get wider as you change the scale there. They don't get more defined in that frequency area yet so although it's good for seeing transients, it's not great yet for seeing harmonics etc.

This is the one thing I'm hoping to see change at some point.

I'm not expecting it to get as defined as the below but something aiming for this would be amazing with the ability to pick the min and max frequency to look at harmonics or to change the scale to see what's in just the top end for instance (globally would be fine)!

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Old 01-29-2017, 06:59 AM   #15
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# spectrogram: optimized calculation
On my system (mac mini, quad i7, 2.3 ghz, 16gb ram, os 10.8.5) performance still really drops by a huge amount (depending on track count) when zooming in to a certain level.

44.1khz / 24bit wav, no mp3 or other.

As soon as a 10 second selection uses around 380 or more pixels horizontally, scrolling get's slow / chunky.

-When i zoom out one fine step (by mousewheel), it's just noticeable that the spectrogram detail decreases (get's a bit less sharp), and scrolling is fine again.

-When zooming in closer scrolling gets increasingly better, but never as fluid as when 10 sec. use less than 380 pixels.

Please note: That's with a project with around 16 tracks in spectrogram view, where it's unusable. It get's increasingly better as i reduce tracks, but the change in 'fluidness' is noticeable even with only one mono track.

Probably that's the expected behaviour? I just thought i post this since i promised to explore further (in the 'Spectral Peaks Discussion' thread).
If there are any settings i could change to see if thing's change i'd be happy if someone could give me a hint.

But since we can now set single items to spectrogram view it's not a real issue anyway...
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Old 01-29-2017, 07:29 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by jmorel33 View Post
This latest change really messed up some things:

- For some reason when in Midi Edit mode, loops don't loop end marker is not considered anymore, so I can't edit and loop anymore. (ok for some reason SYNC EDITOR TRANSPORT TO PROJECT TRANSPORT was deselected, and I haven't changed that).

- Also, not related to this specific pre, but not far behind, I have Program Changes on tracks that shouldn't have ANY program change. The Program change is possibly from another track. This occurs in Project view and not in edit view... For this one, I haven't found why in project view it changes my keyboard's patch with no PC event. It's in solo on that track and it just happens in project view.... Annoying is not the word.
It sounds like both of these things are unrelated to 5.33? If so please post in the BR forum or so...
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Old 01-29-2017, 07:32 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by lou latch View Post
On my system (mac mini, quad i7, 2.3 ghz, 16gb ram, os 10.8.5) performance still really drops by a huge amount (depending on track count) when zooming in to a certain level.

44.1khz / 24bit wav, no mp3 or other.

As soon as a 10 second selection uses around 380 or more pixels horizontally, scrolling get's slow / chunky.
Yes, that's expected, because at that point the resolution of the peaks file is insufficient to draw, so it has to read about 10 seconds from disk and analyze it. Multiply that by 16 (for 16 tracks) and it is reading and analyzing 160 seconds of audio to draw the frame.
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Old 01-29-2017, 07:34 AM   #18
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I'm not expecting it to get as defined as the below but something aiming for this would be amazing with the ability to pick the min and max frequency to look at harmonics or to change the scale to see what's in just the top end for instance (globally would be fine)!

At the moment the resolution is limited to 128 linear bins, which can be presented as linear or log scale, but the resolution limitation of about 170Hz/bin is hard to get around. Live with it, unless we can figure out a way to make analysis way, way faster.
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Old 01-29-2017, 08:18 AM   #19
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At the moment the resolution is limited to 128 linear bins, which can be presented as linear or log scale, but the resolution limitation of about 170Hz/bin is hard to get around. Live with it, unless we can figure out a way to make analysis way, way faster.
When you say it's a limitation are we talking physical "Gabor" limits or just how long it would take to analyse it all overall?


I'm guessing from my limited knowledge of FFT that we can't just limit the top end to say 16khz (or lower) as a preferences and then get those bins a bit closer together?

What if the resolution and behaviour we have now overall is seen as the default "overview" version and then we can select an item (or items), use an action to further analyse the selected for higher resolution mode (or a tick box in project settings like we have for video peak files)?

Even if this means a few bigger peak files or sluggish behaviour if we have more than a few in high res mode.

It's still super useful as is but mostly for superfluous sounds in the basically "noise" part of the spectrum about over 10kHz. If there was a way to get more res in the useful range of say 60Hz to 5Khz that would seem to be great.

Of course, the actual editing tools do work at any range so that's great but we just can't make out different notes, chords or things like that to make visibly editing an item easier (although it's great for drums).

If it doesn't get changed that's fine as it's still amazing and I own other spectral editor software for the details but just seems a waste to have all the stuff above 10kHz detailed and not the stuff below that.

Soz!
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Old 01-29-2017, 08:22 AM   #20
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Live with it, unless we can figure out a way to make analysis way, way faster.
Currently it is very fast. I personally could live with a slower detailed view if it could work as toggle between normal spectrogram and customized view for a selected item for example. Maybe even using a different cache file.
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Old 01-29-2017, 08:50 AM   #21
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At the moment the resolution is limited to 128 linear bins, which can be presented as linear or log scale, but the resolution limitation of about 170Hz/bin is hard to get around. Live with it, unless we can figure out a way to make analysis way, way faster.
Maybe discarding unnecessary data from the image and progressive encoding, something along the lines of progressive jpeg compression? Preemptive loading? GPU memory? Just a few random ideas.
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Old 01-29-2017, 08:52 AM   #22
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Maybe discarding unnecessary data from the image and progressive encoding, something along the lines of progressive jpeg compression? Preemptive loading? GPU memory? Just a few random ideas.
There are many possibilities, but it'd be premature to go build some complex thing for a DAW. If this was a spectral editing plug-in where we could devote a year of research to that it would be one thing, but we need to prevent it from being a burden on the rest of the program. So it goes.
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Old 01-29-2017, 09:32 AM   #23
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There are many possibilities, but it'd be premature to go build some complex thing for a DAW. If this was a spectral editing plug-in where we could devote a year of research to that it would be one thing, but we need to prevent it from being a burden on the rest of the program. So it goes.
Makes total sense.
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Old 01-29-2017, 10:25 AM   #24
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Woah, is this the first time the Win64 download has exceeded 10MB?
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Old 01-29-2017, 12:46 PM   #25
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Because it's different.
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Old 01-29-2017, 12:51 PM   #26
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It sounds like both of these things are unrelated to 5.33? If so please post in the BR forum or so...
Justin, you're probably correct as I did a few tests with various 5.33 pre versions and I had the same issue in both cases.

There a quite a few midi editor quirks in fact and I will have to go through the "big list of midi editor" quirks to make sure I'm not duplicating / triplicating anything.
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Old 01-29-2017, 01:04 PM   #27
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Why not using spectral peak colors for spectrogram? Both in one.
Colour (or brightness) is used for amplitude in spectrograms (as amplitude doesn't have it's own axis) so it would be confusing to have colours for both.
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Old 01-29-2017, 01:10 PM   #28
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I also think it would be nice to have the same color gradient for frequency. and then brightness of the color as amplitude. But of course as an option to save in a spectrogram preset. The current gradient is good too to see amplitude better.

I understand giving speed priority. It's not a spectral editor. It's a DAW. But then devs tease us with all these spectral edits that could be much better with more detailed spectrogram. It is very good to de-essing currently as they are now. I have no problem if they stay as it is now.

I find using many spectral edits, as when using too many stretch markers, clutters the item view when zooming out and we don't have ways to hide/show stretch markers or spectral edits.
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Old 01-29-2017, 01:43 PM   #29
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There are many possibilities, but it'd be premature to go build some complex thing for a DAW. If this was a spectral editing plug-in where we could devote a year of research to that it would be one thing, but we need to prevent it from being a burden on the rest of the program. So it goes.

I'd like to request that the user has the option of upping the frequency resolution on an individual item/take basis once an issue has been homed in on. I think what you guys have achieved here so far is marvellous and I also think it is rare that a user would need this type of display project-wide at any higher/extreme setting and so broad defaults are more than enough -certainly what is offered here is above par for this.

It would be ideal for most workflows though if the resolution could be wound up in factors of 2 or similar for selected takes (or sections of) where needs arise. How this higher resolution works with zoomed-out spectogram displaying, and how the processing or frequency data overheads could be managed for this I cannot advise, but I suspect the processing hit is in the generation and not necessarily in the display.


Apologies if I have the wrong end of the stick or simply not getting the crux of the issue here, what I'm tring to say is that the high-res extra processing and memory use is only needed locally and at specific user request, and what is already offered is brilliant for everything else.

Maybe this "cranking-up" doesn't need to be stored in peaks files indefinitely and used at all zoom levels, or maybe easy data-shedding needs to be built into the UI, but I think for workflows' sakes it needs to be catered for.

Thank you for listening.




>
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Old 01-29-2017, 02:56 PM   #30
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No, colors of spectrogram we can forget, they are mostly useless anyway, y-axis is frequency, this is enough to know, colors from spectral peaks are more interesting, so just throwing it at the sprectrogram lines, very simple mix.
1. lines from spectrogram
2. colors from spectral peaks
It can be changed to have brightness being intensity/amplitude but it's not quite as well defined.

Having said that. I'd be happy to have this mode if done right and if Justin thinks it's worth the effort
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Old 01-29-2017, 06:44 PM   #31
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Is it possible to have a visual fade-in slider for the waveform display over the spectral display? Basically like in RX, where it is possible to adjust waveform visibility on top of spectral information.
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Old 01-29-2017, 08:45 PM   #32
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Is it possible to have a visual fade-in slider for the waveform display over the spectral display? Basically like in RX, where it is possible to adjust waveform visibility on top of spectral information.
This would be great.
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Old 01-30-2017, 03:58 AM   #33
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Default Bug Report

REAPER crashes during looped playback when you change from a larger FFT size to a smaller in spectral edit.
System is Win Vista 32bit

FR:
It would be nice to have some sort of FX button like takeFX has so we could audition or apply FX on just the Spectral Edit selection.

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Old 01-30-2017, 06:52 AM   #34
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I'd like to request that the user has the option of upping the frequency resolution on an individual item/take basis once an issue has been homed in on.
>
Sounds like a good way of focusing processing. Maybe it would need a max limit of audio material measured in seconds in real world use to prevent a machine freezing up. I like the idea of basing it on an item of (up to a certain length).
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Old 01-30-2017, 11:53 AM   #35
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There are many possibilities, but it'd be premature to go build some complex thing for a DAW. If this was a spectral editing plug-in where we could devote a year of research to that it would be one thing, but we need to prevent it from being a burden on the rest of the program. So it goes.
I wanted a spectrogram function to see where a recording/sample becomes 100% noise so I can quickly cut the ends. The spectrogram is JUST BARELY detailed enough for me to able to do that, but I am happy with that. Oh and you can see misc noises and cut the sample early right before that noise. You'd never see it looking at the waveform!

The spectral editor right now will be rarely used due to resolution limits and the fact that changing volume of a spectral square is not so useful since noises usually step over desired content. You really need a more complex algorithm that will activate within the square to remove noises effectively, not just do a volume change. There's a handful that helps including resynthesis types and noise vs harmonics detection type algorithms.
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Old 01-30-2017, 11:57 AM   #36
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WAIT... I HAVE AN IDEA... REAPER API TO THE RESCUE.

LET US "process spectral square" HOWEVER WE WANT!

Ok but the resolution of the spectrogram will make editing harder thus making everything less useful. That's why I say: forget about [edit: improving on] spectral editing for now, focus on better spectrogram. Without that, everything is diminished in usefulness.
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Old 01-30-2017, 04:20 PM   #37
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My mind works in weird ways but I wondered if spectral coloring could do something like put a bright white (or red, or something easily visible) line or something in any place where there's clipping.

To expand on that thought (off topic) that might be a neat function, "Split at Clipping", to split media at any place where the 24-bit wave image doesn't have a continuous line, which would be clipping.
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