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Old 07-08-2014, 06:33 AM   #1
Soli Deo Gloria
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Default MIDI files and external editor

This has been commented in other threads but no solution has been found, as far as I know. Iīve read many users have been unable to open .mid files in an external editor and I am experiencing it right now with Sibelius as primary or secondary editor. Iīve tried setting imported and created midi items as .mid references, but it doesnīt work. The curious thing is that I managed to get it work some time ago but I canīt replicate it now.

I begin asking first before posting a bug report because I think there must be a little setting somewhere that itīs blocking the feature...
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Old 07-08-2014, 06:59 AM   #2
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You're not alone.
Same here, since I decided to run all 64 bits.
Tried with Finale, Notion 4 and Synthfont.
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Old 07-08-2014, 07:35 AM   #3
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good idea Soli.... I do hope you get something going on this point... it certainly needs some DEV love and work.
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Old 07-08-2014, 12:48 PM   #4
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Letīs see what happens, guys... if nobody appears with the answer in some time, Iīll certainly report it...
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Old 07-08-2014, 05:03 PM   #5
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suggest just go for the report now... it's been tried by more than enough different people by now and NO ONE has ever gotten it to work afaik...

way back, in some distant reaper version it used to work, at least with some ext. editors... but not for a long time now.
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Old 07-08-2014, 09:22 PM   #6
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see here:
http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=5154
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Old 07-09-2014, 04:01 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hopi View Post
suggest just go for the report now... it's been tried by more than enough different people by now and NO ONE has ever gotten it to work afaik...

way back, in some distant reaper version it used to work, at least with some ext. editors... but not for a long time now.
Well Hopi, thanks to Androo we can see thereīs already one in the tracker that seems to be recent. Itīs still unconfirmed even though it has 12 users who have replicated (myself included). Letīs see now...

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Thanks so much!
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Old 07-09-2014, 04:03 AM   #8
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If anyone reads this and can replicate this bug, it would be fine if he/she could go to the link above and confirm the bug...
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Old 07-09-2014, 04:40 AM   #9
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I don't have this issue. strange...
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Old 07-09-2014, 10:02 AM   #10
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heda... really??? tell us more plz:

reaper 32 or 64?
which version of reaper [4.xxx?]
what is your ext. midi editor?

so you are saying that you can tell reaper to open a midi item in the ext. editor for .mid files as set up in pref's and it does open it there?
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Old 07-09-2014, 02:28 PM   #11
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hmmm... in the pre release area for the current RC1 I mentioned this and one person says this:

I'm on x64 too and I do able to open my .mids in x86-ish MuseScore. The trick is you need to make your midi item external. Something like Convert active take MIDI to .mid file reference then Item: Open items in primary external editor. That "workflow" is far from ideal by any stretch - you have to re-import edited scores back to Reaper every time but it kinda works.

Now I just went and tried that... my experience so far is not great with this...

I used QuickScore as the ext. exe. did the convert to ref. midi and indeed it did open in the ext. editor... and I can add or change notes... but then what is the point if I can't just save it right back into reaper? Or do I just not know how to do that properly???

Also, once set up this way and converted... I then can't seem to open that midi item in the reaper MIDI Editor....

I am frustrated as hell with this... it works so well with audio and the ext. editor for audio....

What I want it that same seamless workflow with midi and a notation view.

OK. I'll now shut the F up and listen to all advice.
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Old 07-09-2014, 03:31 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hopi View Post
heda... really??? tell us more plz:

reaper 32 or 64?
which version of reaper [4.xxx?]
what is your ext. midi editor?

so you are saying that you can tell reaper to open a midi item in the ext. editor for .mid files as set up in pref's and it does open it there?
I'm using 4.62 x64
I am using QuickScore Elite Level II but I think any program should work.

You have to convert the item to external mid file reference first. I think in previous versions of reaper it was done automatically if you used the open copies in external editor. Now it seems it doesn't. But it works converting any item to external mid reference with the action "Convert active take MIDI to .mid file reference", then you just double click the item and it opens in the external editor.
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Old 07-09-2014, 09:38 PM   #13
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thanks Heda... let's continue...

I see how I could make a custom action to convert the file and then open in ext. midi editor... so as to get the old behavior back...

the two things I don't quite see are this:

1-when I convert and open the midi item, and add some notes and save in the ext. editor... I do NOT see those changes happen to the midi item back in reaper... which of course makes the whole process useless, eh?

2- I did not yet make the custom action but did try by first converting and then dbl clk to open in ext. midi editor... but then lets say I later want to just open it in the normal reaper midi editor.... what I saw happen was it would now only open in the ext. editor...

so you can see my problem... I want it to open in my choice of midi editors, right?

can you give some guidance? thanks much
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Old 07-09-2014, 09:51 PM   #14
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Thank you for posting the way to make the external editor option execute. This seems a marginally useful workflow at best. The positive side: I can open in MuseScore using this action. I can edit it and save it back to the project folder as .mid and import it. Then, if I want to make another edit, it's the same thing again. I cannot edit the 'living' midi file in MS and use it in Reaper without the roundabout procedure. It is of very limited utility and appeal as is, I hate to say. Being able to work in a score format is one of the things I miss most after moving to Reaper. Gotta take it as it comes, I guess.
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Old 07-09-2014, 10:26 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by androo View Post
Thank you for posting the way to make the external editor option execute. This seems a marginally useful workflow at best. The positive side: I can open in MuseScore using this action. I can edit it and save it back to the project folder as .mid and import it. Then, if I want to make another edit, it's the same thing again. I cannot edit the 'living' midi file in MS and use it in Reaper without the roundabout procedure. It is of very limited utility and appeal as is, I hate to say. Being able to work in a score format is one of the things I miss most after moving to Reaper. Gotta take it as it comes, I guess.
+1000 and somebody say Amen... androo is very polite and gentle and I am not so much.... IMO this as it is simply sux.
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Old 07-10-2014, 01:03 AM   #16
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And of course this continuing niggle surfaces right after I move (or so I thought) 100% to Reaper MIDI editing.....

But yes this is a pain in the butt and always has been.
I could actually invoke the PC version of BPP MIDI editor IF this all worked reliably.
Best of both worlds for me.
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Old 07-10-2014, 05:19 AM   #17
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Related ...

Just yesterday I was preparing a set of project files for upload to share with a collaborator. That's when I discovered that MIDI doesn't live in files the way audio does.

I stumbled around until I tripped upon the convert to external reference action and was able to get it done.

IMO, instead of narrowly addressing the external editor problem with this approach, I would prefer a more generalized solution like an option to have MIDI always done as external reference.

IOW, make MIDI data and audio data the same as far as storage goes.
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Old 07-10-2014, 08:25 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobF View Post
Related ...

Just yesterday I was preparing a set of project files for upload to share with a collaborator. That's when I discovered that MIDI doesn't live in files the way audio does.

I stumbled around until I tripped upon the convert to external reference action and was able to get it done.

IMO, instead of narrowly addressing the external editor problem with this approach, I would prefer a more generalized solution like an option to have MIDI always done as external reference.

IOW, make MIDI data and audio data the same as far as storage goes.
I think that would be a good idea too...
...and I don't know why it has not been that way forever with reaper..
Just as we can set a project "Audio" file that holds all the wav files, why not have that same method for MIDI files???
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Old 07-10-2014, 08:35 AM   #19
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BobF, hopi



Isn't that what you're looking for ?
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Old 07-10-2014, 08:42 AM   #20
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I wonder why the opposite is "recommended" ...

But yes, that should do nicely. Thanks
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Old 07-10-2014, 08:48 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobF View Post
IOW, make MIDI data and audio data the same as far as storage goes.
What bothers me about this idea is that it might somehow not be as efficient. I think what nofish shows might be the answer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nofish View Post
BobF, hopi



Isn't that what you're looking for ?
At this point I'm not sure I understand the exact question here.

Is this about using an external MIDI Editor just like we would use an external audio editor?

I've never had a need for that so I've never tried it.
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Old 07-10-2014, 11:26 AM   #22
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http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=142544

see post #20 by Justin

showing the settings he suggests which are not the same as what nofish is showing here...

however... I still don't get what I would like to get...

Tod, yes... you are essentially right... what is wanted is exactly like what happens with an ext. editor for audio.

For example... for audio I use Audition as ext. editor. So I open a selected media item [audio wav let's say] in Audition, make changes and hit save and that altered wav is right back in reaper with the changes.

I, and others, would like to be able to do exactly that with a midi item and an external editor. We'd really prefer the ext. editor to be Sibelius but ...
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Old 07-10-2014, 11:34 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hopi View Post
http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=142544

showing the settings he suggests which are not the same as what nofish is showing here...
At first glance I don't see anything that's different, he also has the "Create new MIDI items as .MID files" setting set.

What do you think is different ?
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Old 07-10-2014, 12:08 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod View Post
What bothers me about this idea is that it might somehow not be as efficient. I think what nofish shows might be the answer.
I'm pretty sure this will work for *my* purposes. Whether or not it is an efficiency hit, or whether or not it works for those wishing to use an external editor remains to be seen.
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Old 07-10-2014, 12:16 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hopi View Post
Tod, yes... you are essentially right... what is wanted is exactly like what happens with an ext. editor for audio.

For example... for audio I use Audition as ext. editor. So I open a selected media item [audio wav let's say] in Audition, make changes and hit save and that altered wav is right back in reaper with the changes.

I, and others, would like to be able to do exactly that with a midi item and an external editor. We'd really prefer the ext. editor to be Sibelius but ...
This!
People mainly writing music with a score editor need this, badly.
Reaper doesn't need to have a onboard score editor, if we can open a midi item in an external editor in a simple way, and if the modifications of the item are taken into account in reaper
without any complex workaround.
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Old 07-10-2014, 12:22 PM   #26
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Frustration with this and the general song writing experience with midi workflow with reaper has led me to consider writing a vst to handle this for me. I outlined it here http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=142470 . The short version is the vst would sit in the track before a sampler and/or could be fanned out to other tracks for other samplers. The vst would handle creating the midi, song articulations, and general song creation tools.
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Old 07-10-2014, 12:24 PM   #27
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I didn't know you can't open in-project items in an external editor, couldn't that be done (probably with some clever temp-file juggling behind the scenes)?

In a short test it seems that what Justin does in the licecap works only if the external editor is "Primary", but not if it is "Secondary", which I would prefer. Can someone confirm?


IIRC Reaper initially worked with *.mid files references as the only option, the in-project MIDI items were introduced somewhere on the way. I'm not sure, but I think there are some MIDI features not available for *.mid file items. Then again it looks like you can convert to and fro pretty seamlessly.



Quote:
Originally Posted by gibi25 View Post
This!
People mainly writing music with a score editor need this, badly.
Reaper doesn't need to have a onboard score editor, if we can open a midi item in an external editor in a simple way, and if the modifications of the item are taken into account in reaper
without any complex workaround.
Tick both of the ".MID file" options (and converting existing items in older projects) isn't exactly complex, but I'd also rather see this improved for in-project items. Are you saying that changes are not applied right now when the edited file is saved in the external editor?

Last edited by gofer; 07-10-2014 at 12:35 PM.
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Old 07-10-2014, 12:44 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gofer View Post
I'm not sure, but I think there are some MIDI features not available for *.mid file items.
Yeah, eg no (fully working) undo history iirc, at least I could never get it to work back then, that's one main thing I was glad when finally in-project MIDI was introduced.
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Old 07-10-2014, 12:52 PM   #29
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gofer and nofish and all...

yes... I am saying that when I save changes in the ext. midi editor, they are not directly saved to the mid file in reaper... that is exactly what I'm saying and is exactly what the problem is for me ...

now I may be doing something wrong... often the case, but I do NOT get this to work as desired.

It is one thing, as Justin shows, to get a midi file to open in the ext. editor...sure that's nice, but then if you make changes you WANT those to appear back in reaper...

so plz, IF you can show a way to do exactly this, ... I'm all ears and eyes!
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Old 07-10-2014, 01:45 PM   #30
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hopi, if you right click the item that is a reference to a mid file you have the option in the menu "Open in built-in MIDI editor"

And it does work for me to update the mid file with the external editor, and going back to reaper the new changes are there. What would be the point to edit with external midi editor if you can't update the mid files?
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Old 07-10-2014, 02:10 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heda View Post
hopi, if you right click the item that is a reference to a mid file you have the option in the menu "Open in built-in MIDI editor"

And it does work for me to update the mid file with the external editor, and going back to reaper the new changes are there. What would be the point to edit with external midi editor if you can't update the mid files?

yes... exactly of course... but mine don't show the updated changes made in the ext. midi editor...

I can do a save as with the ext. editor to a given locations [desktop or whatever] and drag it back into reaper... but that is the best I can get so far...

as to the question about what is the diff between what nofish and Justin show... look at the most right hand check box... Justin uses that and I don't that checked in the shots nofish posted....
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Old 07-10-2014, 02:20 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hopi View Post
as to the question about what is the diff between what nofish and Justin show... look at the most right hand check box... Justin uses that and I don't that checked in the shots nofish posted....
Ah yes, right.
Sorry, I was a bit sloppy with that pic, I just wanted to show where that option is to be found, not how to set it.
To make it clear, I should have added "set to .MID files" in this case, sorry again for the confusion.
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Old 07-10-2014, 02:23 PM   #33
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OK well 'some' progress but it is MUCH too tedious IMO.

have Sibelius set as the ext. midi ed. ...for mid and primary editor.

so first thing I have to save the project so the mid file gets saved with a name into the project folder [it goes into the Audio folder... and I suggest reaper be able to have a MIDI folder as well... eh?]

OK then open in Sib as ext. editor, make changes but then the only way to get it back into reaper that I find, is Export in Sib. ...and with that I have to navigate to the project folder, to the Audio sub folder, and then overwrite the mid file that is in there.

by comparison... IF this was an audio wav file, just hitting Save in Audition [or other wav editor] brings the changed wav right back into reaper...

so ummm close but no cigar [hahaha hey, not even a ciagrette really]

PLEASE now... show me a better and faster way... even if it means using a diff ext. midi editor....
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Old 07-10-2014, 02:51 PM   #34
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While I am waiting for MuseScrore to download (for some reason my connection is crawling like a snail right now), let's approach methodically.
Goldberg's bug report is about not being able to open MIDI items which are MID file references. He mentions that he is setting his editor as secondary editor.

Can we first get this out of the way? Apart from Soli, you all seem to be able to open MID file items in an external editor, does this part work for you if you set it as secondary? If not, I'll confirm the bug report for secondary editors.
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Old 07-10-2014, 03:04 PM   #35
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gofer... yes, that is part of the problem

if you set the ext. editor as the secondary it will not open

if you set it as the primary it will open...

saving back to reaper, at least with Sibelius is a roundabout chore...

I have to Export a mid file and go to the reaper project folder and overwite what was there or save with a diff name and then drag that renamed mid into reaper

In other words, I find no way to simply do a SAVE and have it go back into reaper...
to be fair, this may be a Sib issue in that SAVE means it wants to save it in its own score format, not directly as a mid file...


so if you get the same result with musescore as secondary and primary ext. ed's... you should be set for a bug report.

happy to test any more questions for you.
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Old 07-10-2014, 03:19 PM   #36
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Part of the problem using MuseScore seems to be that the latest version doesn't seem to run too reliable at least here on x64 system. About 99 times out of 100, MS doesn't let to even save as mid file even if you add that extension there, instead forcing its own format to the file (mscz). Once in a blue moon the save seems to succeed though and Reaper does update accordingly without any extra import steps etc.
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Old 07-10-2014, 03:39 PM   #37
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Ok, thanks. I'll confirm the bug report so far. It doesn't help Soli, though, as he apparently can't open Sibelius as primary editor as well .

Your issue is something else, though. MuseScore successfully opened, but if I hit save it will try to save an mscz file, which obviously is the score file type it uses. I can save mid via Save as..., but that involves navigating to the original directory as you describe (I imagine it could technically open the save as dialog with the source directory, but it doesn't). It does update immediately when I bring Reaper back into focus, so that part is working for me. The problem (at least with MuseScore) seems to be that it is not meant as a MIDI file editor, but a score thingie.


Edit: xpander, I couldn't get it to work by changing the file extension in the save dialog at all, although it pretended to sucessfully save (gave me the "file already extsts -overwrite?"). But that's yet something else.

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Old 07-10-2014, 03:44 PM   #38
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OK now a bit further in this mess...

I just tried Forte as the ext. editor and though it's not as nice IMO as some others, it WILL do what I'm after as regards saving the mid file back into reaper... it automatically know it has opened a mid file from the reaper project folder and saves back to that with the save command... it briefly asks if you want to save in it's own format instead, but that's easy enuff...

so some progress I think.... still only seems to work as the primary editor so think that is a bug...

I also notice this... when a mid file is in reaper with the settings we have now choosen... I can open it in either built in editor or the ext. ed., but don't seem to get it open with Inline Ed. anymore... [which I often like to use]
seems like the E key for that does nothing now...
..so this might also be a bug... can anyone else confirm this?
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Old 07-10-2014, 03:50 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gofer View Post
Ok, thanks. I'll confirm the bug report so far. It doesn't help Soli, though, as he apparently can't open Sibelius as primary editor as well .

Your issue is something else, though. MuseScore successfully opened, but if I hit save it will try to save an mscz file, which obviously is the score file type it uses. I can save mid via Save as..., but that involves navigating to the original directory as you describe (I imagine it could technically open the save as dialog with the source directory, but it doesn't). It does update immediately when I bring Reaper back into focus, so that part is working for me. The problem (at least with MuseScore) seems to be that it is not meant as a MIDI file editor, but a score thingie.


Edit: xpander, I couldn't get it to work by changing the file extension in the save dialog at all, although it pretended to sucessfully save (gave me the "file already extsts -overwrite?"). But that's yet something else.
Not sure what Soli is having prob with ... cuz Sibelius will open here when set as the primary.... it is only that it's so tedious with Sib to go through the whole Export as mid and navigation fun... way too much for my liking..

OK and if you want to try it:
http://www.fortenotation.com/en/prod...duct-overview/
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Old 07-10-2014, 04:01 PM   #40
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no thanks. I'm just in here for the fun, don't need an external editor personally.

So we agree that
a) the bug is "open in secondary editor is broken" (and the rest of the feature works, if your editor plays game).
b) one FR is "please make it work for in-project MIDI items as well".

Yep, inline editor was one of the things that never worked with midi file items. That could be the other FR.
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