MIDI files and external editor

[hopi]

yes gofer akaik you are dead on it with those...

[heda]

yes the problem with score editors is that they use specific format files and all the work on the scores cannot be saved in the mid file of course.. so it involves save as or export to midi and overwrite the file. I never modify the mid with the external editor. I only use if to print the score, but all midi work is done in Reaper so I don't have that problem.

Ideally the score editor should have to be able to reference a .mid file also as source for the notes and tempo. So if you update notes in Reaper it would update the midi file and Musescore could update the score also but all score work, annotations etc should be maintained.

[hopi]

as mentioned... so far I see Forte as the closest way to go...

of course some may not like it... can't be helped

however you can use it to both save a score that retains whatever notation formatting you have included.. and then also to just use save to affect the mid file in reaper...

So we are really talking about two diff files here... one a score for printing, etc. and the other a mid file in the reaper project...

Sibelius can do this also, but the mid file in reaper has to be done via Export and overwrite.

Well... it's better than nothing and if gofer's bug reports find a DEV response, it could even get a bit better still...

[Soli Deo Gloria]

Hi!

I´ve been busy these days and I see there has been a lot of movement in this thread. With the instructions posted above I managed to get both primary and secondary editors working - thanks so, so much Heda!!!. Of course, this is very tricky and should be clarified at least if it will remain as it is. The limitations of this method are evident, as all of you say. I want it mainly to correct the score of some part/s with Sibelius, after having written it via rewire and while I´m already working on the hardcore programming in Reaper.

All the love this feature could get would be welcome, I guess...

[hopi]

Soli do tell how you get both primary AND secondary working?

[xpander]

Originally Posted by gofer

Edit: xpander, I couldn't get it to work by changing the file extension in the save dialog at all, although it pretended to sucessfully save (gave me the "file already extsts -overwrite?"). But that's yet something else.

Yep, that's the problem with Musescore it seems. Even using "Save as" simply won't give any other options in the file type dropdown but the Musescore specific mscz. But then after many different tries opening and reopening the app, and first typing the mid extension manually into the file name, the dropdown will all of a sudden give all these different options in there too. One of them is mid and choosing that, it works ok updating back into the Reaper. I've only managed to do that twice now and don't know what the magic combination is except pure luck. Too bad, I used to use MS for some of the scoring stuff but this doesn't look too good now(v1.3 x64).

Maybe I'll try Finale Notepad or Forte next.

[gofer]

I get a nicely filled file type dropdown including *.mid in MuseScore's save as - without jumping through any hoops. Didn't test much, but it worked everytime so far.

EDIT:
Ah, it might well be that I installed 32bit MS... not at the desktop, will look later

[Soli Deo Gloria]

Originally Posted by hopi

Soli do tell how you get both primary AND secondary working?

Well, I haven´t done anything special... I didn´t even change the Preferences settings, I just convert with a shortcut the active take to a .mid reference and then both editors work as expected (Sibelius and Cubase). I´m testing this with my internet machine, since I´m recovering from a bad drive crash (the one with the system, you know...). As soon as I can I´ll test it with my work machine.

If you still can´t get any of your editors to work, then there must be something buggy about this feature...

[hopi]

ummm Soli try this:

in pref's, set up with mid no primary ed, and on a secondary ed. set to be Sibelius...

see if it will even open the midi item...

I and others find it will not...

but IF Sib is set as the primary ed, then it will open...

**********************

Also... ok given that we have to convert the midi item to ref. midi..
Try this...

Open it in your ext. mid editor and add notes or whatever so that the length of the mid file get longer... say about 8 or more measures longer...

Now do whatever Save method the ext. editor requires.. and close it, so that reaper now gets the changed mid file in place of the original.

What I see happen is that the added length IS there but does not show until I drag out the media item longer. I guess I would have expected it to just update itself.

[Soli Deo Gloria]

Originally Posted by hopi

ummm Soli try this:

in pref's, set up with mid no primary ed, and on a secondary ed. set to be Sibelius...

see if it will even open the midi item...

I and others find it will not...

but IF Sib is set as the primary ed, then it will open...

Well, I see now... I can certainly confirm it, even though I don´t really know if it´s a bug or something made by design...

Originally Posted by hopi

Try this...

Open it in your ext. mid editor and add notes or whatever so that the length of the mid file get longer... say about 8 or more measures longer...

Now do whatever Save method the ext. editor requires.. and close it, so that reaper now gets the changed mid file in place of the original.

What I see happen is that the added length IS there but does not show until I drag out the media item longer. I guess I would have expected it to just update itself.

That´s true! I also would expect it to update its length automatically, but that´s not the case as we can see. Again, the question is : bug or design? Anyway, at least it´s good to know how we have to deal with all of this. I personally wouldn´t rate it as urgent, but any improvement would be fine, as I said before.

[hopi]

urgent? hey Soli... it's a matter of life or death!

no... right... it just is what it is and it could be better... [should be better?]

Well at the least this thread has gathered some good info and good confirmations by several users...

IF the DEV's want to do something about improving this, the info here should be of help.

[Soli Deo Gloria]

Originally Posted by hopi

urgent? hey Soli... it's a matter of life or death!

Ha-ha!!

Originally Posted by hopi

Well at the least this thread has gathered some good info and good confirmations by several users...

IF the DEV's want to do something about improving this, the info here should be of help.

Yes, it´s quite good that we all could document the behaviour of this feature, indeed...

[hopi]

any news on this mess?

I was just back into the situation again, trying to have what I want and getting nowhere fast...

what I want is this:

1- E key opens the midi media item in the Inline editor... hit E again and you go back to normal

2- dbl clk opens the item in the reaper built-in midi editor

3- some modifier key [oh say like shift dbl clik] opens the item in the specified secondary external midi editor [which would be an application such as Forte or Musescore or Sibelius, etc.]

[gofer]

Hopi, could you clarify which part do you consider VERY broken (your comment in the pre-thread)?


As of open/close inline editor, try an SWS cycle action to toggle open vs close. Works fine here (well, yeah, with in-project items...).


FR's I'd find useful regarding this whole complex:
1) make external editor work with in-project MIDI
2) individual mouse behaviors (double-click on item) for open in built-in vs primary vs secondary MIDI editor
Alternative to 2):
3) make it possible to have a secondary, but no primary external editor defined (this is the part where I think is a bug, but like Soli, I am not entirely sure, could be intended)

[hopi]

gofer... yes:

What I consider VERY broken is this:

IF you add an ext. editor for mid as the primary editor, your midi item will open in that with a dbl clk... but then you have problems getting it to open in the built-in reaper midi ed.

IF instead you add that ext. editor as a secondary editor, it simply does not work...

It also seems that IF you have ext. editors for mid specified in pref's, THEN the Inline Editor shortcut "E" key no longer works.

**********************
Here is what I want to see work:

1- set up your ext. midi editor program and be able to assign a key command to open a midi item in it.

2- still have dbl clk open the selected midi item in the built-in midi editor

3- E key opens and closes the selected midi item in the Inline Editor.

*****************

I don't really know, but there seems to be some serious confusion in reaper about what is the primary editor and what is the secondary editor...

I would think either of these two ways:

A- the primary editor could be the built-in midi editor... or it could be some other program...
B- the secondary editor would always be some program, and the primary editor could be left blank... in that case, the built-in editor should be the primary.

******************
ALSO:

Now I don't know why the DEV's set up midi items as they have... but

I find it really strange to have to set various pref's to have a mid item be a real .mid file.

I would expect that when we create a midi item, we get a .mid file in the project folder as the default method of writing and saving midi.

Further, I would expect to be able to create a named sub folder in the project, like MIDI FILES, where all the .mid files would be saved.

This IS how reaper works for audio files, eh? We can have a sub folder in the project called AUDIO, and have all the wav files saved there, eh?

So why are .mid files the bastard child? Are they really any less important than audio files??? In many projects, I'd say they are even more important!

I am happy to make it more clear if I have not yet said it well... just ask away... and I thank you again very much for trying to sort out this mess.

[gofer]

I don't get how do you mean the built-in editor should be one of the external editors?

To be clear, we have
a) the built-in editor,
b,c) two possible external editors
d) inline editor

for all of them there are separate menu entries and separate actions.

Alas, we don't have separate mouse behaviors for all of them, but you can right now assign doubleclick on an item to the action "Open in built in MIDI editor" and assign a key command (or a modifier plus doubleclick) to open in one of the secondary editors. That'd be your points 1 and 2.

As of 3, "E" for toggle open/close inline works fine here. Earlier on I did it by assigning "E" to "Open item inline editor" in main view actions and "E" to "Close inline editor" in the inline editor section. It has a niggle (can't close when inline editor is not in focus), so I now prefer my cycle action which does the trick anytime (with in-project MIDI).

Of course - and that's probably the main source for grief - external needs a MIDI file while inline works only with in-project MIDI (it's not the external editor assignment at fault, but the wrong sort of source - convert the item to in-project and the inline will open just fine).

It would really be cool if Reaper could
a) open in-project items in an external editor and
b) open MIDI file items in the inline editor (and do the various other stuff it can now only do with in-project MIDI)

but I wouldn't hold my breath for it. It smells like barrels full of worms, and manual conversion is really very straightforward.


Personally I prefer my MIDI to be in-project. It's how all my previous DAWs handled it. Also it doesn't sound wise to have files as default as long as some of Reaper's features only work with in-project MIDI.
It's two friggin options on the same page (so much for various) and probably it's two because of some debate here in the forum .

[hopi]

>>Of course - and that's probably the main source for grief - external needs a MIDI file while inline works only with in-project MIDI (it's not the external editor assignment at fault, but the wrong sort of source - convert the item to in-project and the inline will open just fine).<<

yes I think that IS part of the problem also...

so to have the Inline Editor working with E key, the midi files have to be set in pref's to "in project"... then E opens and closes the Inline Ed. just fine.

and also when set that way, dbl clk opens the item in the built-in editor just fine...

soooo perhaps a better way to look at the problem is how to get the ext. editor to open a midi item... [not notepad as Justion shows, eeek!] but Forte or Sibelious, and then to be able to make changes while in notation view and then to save those changes back to the midi media item that exists in reaper.

doing the convert to .mid seem to be a less than optimal method... since then the other functions [Inline Editor] no longer work.

Integration is the keyword for me... ALL possible midi editor working together smoothly without a bunch of hoops to jump through.

[gofer]

Originally Posted by hopi

so to have the Inline Editor working with E key, the midi files have to be set in pref's to "in project"... then E opens and closes the Inline Ed. just fine.

No, you don't have to set the options in the pref's, as you can just convert back and forth any time it's needed.

We do agree that it is not optimal, but that's where we stand . All the things you wanted are possible (not broken) right now, just not all at the same time and with the inconvenience of a mouseclick between tasks and - I didn't test that, but assume - accumulation of redundant midi files on the HD when you convert an item back and forth several times.

The only thing I see that might be considered broken is that you can't have a secondary external editor without a primary. The rest should be gathered and formulated as FRs, IMO.

[hopi]

ummm OK well certainly that is one way to look at it, ...so let's start with the secondary editor being broken.

I suppose I could leave the pref's set to 'in project' and then make some custiom action that wouild [maybe] dupe the track, select the items, convert to real .mid file, and open that in the ext. editor.

Hardly what I'd call a 'seamless workflow' however...

[gemike]

Originally Posted by Soli Deo Gloria

This has been commented in other threads but no solution has been found, as far as I know. I´ve read many users have been unable to open .mid files in an external editor and I am experiencing it right now with Sibelius as primary or secondary editor. I´ve tried setting imported and created midi items as .mid references, but it doesn´t work. The curious thing is that I managed to get it work some time ago but I can´t replicate it now.

I begin asking first before posting a bug report because I think there must be a little setting somewhere that it´s blocking the feature...

Hello ,

this will resolve the problem ..

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=161739


Kind Regards

[gemike]

Originally Posted by TonE

Did not read everything precisely, but Reaper is perfect for external midi processing, no matter with which .exe, just follow these steps:

0. add your items as file reference to Reaper
1. set all items to offline
2. run your external midi file processor, close when finished
3. set all items to online
4. smile, because Reaper shows all midi items with updated content
5. repeat as often as you want

Hello ,

this will resolve the problem ..

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=161739


Kind Regards

[gemike]

Originally Posted by TonE

Did not read everything precisely, but Reaper is perfect for external midi processing, no matter with which .exe, just follow these steps:

0. add your items as file reference to Reaper
1. set all items to offline
2. run your external midi file processor, close when finished
3. set all items to online
4. smile, because Reaper shows all midi items with updated content
5. repeat as often as you want

Hello ,

this will resolve the problem ..

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=161739


Kind Regards

[Ozman]

My problem is this: Having the same midi item availabe in rwo different projects.

Im noticing that haaving the midi item be a reference to a midi file creates a new file. So it seems that I xan't have a master project which stores chord progressions and regions, which edits the progression midi files that are viewable in child projects. I dont mind toggling the items on/offline. But currently, Im having to totally replace the midi files in the children, b/c I cannot make them actually reference the same midi file. They all are just making their own copies to reference.