Old 12-30-2012, 02:31 PM   #1
nottooloud
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Default OSX audio clicks

EDIT
I'm not actually looking for help troubleshooting my system.
I'm concerned that there may be a hard-to-detect USB audio issue in OSX 10.7 and 10.8,
and I'm looking for people to test their own systems to confirm or deny.
Thank you for your attention.
/EDIT

EDIT2
I believe I've eliminated the OS as a culprit. Still looking for someone to test
/EDIT2


I'm not sure who to talk to about this, since it happens across multiple programs on two different machines with different OS versions and different hardware, but you guys are the smartest, so I'll talk to you. I'm posting it here in the OSX forum because when I first discovered it, I didn't see it on my XP laptop.

Been in Reaper for several years, currently running a 2011 MacMini i7 Quad.

Starting August 2012, while still running Lion, I started to get occasional clicks in my recorded audio. Zooming in, I could see a single sample, or a string of a few samples, clearly displaced from the waveform. Sometimes it's a short section of the waveform with flipped polarity. I had been using a Sound Devices USBPre2 for a while. I got my old E-MU 0404|USB off the shelf, and discovered the same problem, only much much worse. Apparently some update had rendered it pretty much unusable. Somewhere in there the USBPre2 died. I sent it off to repair and, aiming for two birds with one stone, bought a MOTU Microbook II to use in the meantime. Same problem. I wiped one of the MacMini drives, did a clean Lion install, added only MOTU's Microbook driver, AudioDesk, and Reaper, and ran my tests. Clicks. I bought Mountain Lion 10.8.2 and put it on that drive, tested again. Much to my surprise, the E-MU 0404|USB started working pretty well, and the MOTU turned awful, click central.

Once I figured out a good way to test for these errors, I started seeing them everywhere. They're worst in Reaper, but they also show up in Garageband and in MOTU's AudioDesk. I haven't yet seen them if I'm only using the MacMini's internal audio interface. I do see them on my early 2008 Macbook (not pro) running Lion 10.7.5. Here's a fun bit. If I run my test in stereo, usually the error is the same in both channels, but sometimes it's only in one.

So, various interfaces through various cables into various machines running various OSX versions and recording into various programs. Same problem. I would love for some other people to try my test. It's very easy.

1. You need an external sine wave generator. I've done most of my tests with an iPod Touch running a program called Generator, but I also used two different hardware generators just to make sure the source wasn't the problem. 400 Hz is a good frequency, because it gives you a clear zero crossing while still being flat enough to easily see displaced samples.

2. Send the generator in to Reaper through whatever interface you use, with a nice hot signal. I've never seen one of these clicks in quiet audio.

3. Record it for an hour. Sometimes I only see 1 error in an hour, sometimes hundreds.

4. Duplicate that audio into a new lane, zoom in all the way, and slide it to the right one half cycle. Line it up with the original so that they cross zero in exactly the same place, in opposite directions. (You can't simply flip the polarity, since the errors would cancel out as well.)

5. Select both chunks, go to "Render to File", and make sure that "Add items to new tracks in project when finished." is checked.

6. Render it. Watch the preview window while rendering. Ideally you will see a burst at the start where the two files are offset, a flat line across, and a burst at the end. The preview window level meters should be absolutely stable. If there are problems, you will see the meters move, and there will be a spike in the preview waveform.

7. Close the render window. If there were issues, you can zoom in on them in the project. They will always be paired, since the same error is in both files, just shifted over.

8. Report back. Please include what kind of Mac, what version OSX, and what kind of audio interface.

The attachment is a typical zoomed in error result.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Screen Shot 2012-12-30 at 4.11.39 PM.jpg (53.0 KB, 300 views)
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Last edited by nottooloud; 01-02-2013 at 12:58 PM.
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Old 12-30-2012, 03:34 PM   #2
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damn man, now i m curious!
i never heard about clicks on my recordings, but now im curious and i want to try..
tomorrow if i have some free time between cooking for the new years eve and cleaning house for the new years eve (lol) i will do the test too!
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Old 12-30-2012, 06:47 PM   #3
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That kinds of clicks are most often caused by the audio device driver acting up. For example, wrong or non-functioning driver version for the OS, sync settings not correctly set up, or samplerate mismatch. Especially as you don't get clicks with the internal audio device.

What I would do:
- Re-check that your audio device driver is the latest and correct for your OS, including bit depth (32/64-bit application).
- Check for a firmware update for your audio device.
- In Reaper > Preferences > Audio > Device, check the both "Request" checkboxes, and enter 44100 for the samplerate and 512 for the block size.
- Re-check that your audio device has a solid clock source in the audio device settings app. In your case I suspect it should be "internal". Also make sure that your audio device is operating at 44100Hz as well.

If none of those help, I would create an Aggregate Device in OSX Audio Midi Setup, add your audio device to the Aggregate, select and right click the added device, and select "Use this subdevice as the master clock".

If even that doesn't help, I would reset Reaper to it's default settings. Quit Reaper, rename the ~/Library/Application Support/REAPER folder to something like "REAPER backup", start Reaper and try once more.

If you still get the clicks, I have no idea how to stop them.
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Old 12-30-2012, 09:01 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrelwood View Post
What I would do:
- Re-check that your audio device driver is the latest and correct for your OS, including bit depth (32/64-bit application).
Did that. The USBPre2 where I first noticed the problem is strictly Core Audio. Doesn't even have drivers.

Quote:
- Check for a firmware update for your audio device.
Did that.

Quote:
- In Reaper > Preferences > Audio > Device, check the both "Request" checkboxes, and enter 44100 for the samplerate and 512 for the block size.
Did that.

Quote:
- Re-check that your audio device has a solid clock source in the audio device settings app. In your case I suspect it should be "internal". Also make sure that your audio device is operating at 44100Hz as well.
Did that.

Quote:
If none of those help, I would create an Aggregate Device in OSX Audio Midi Setup, add your audio device to the Aggregate, select and right click the added device, and select "Use this subdevice as the master clock".
I will try that, although I'm not hopeful. Shouldn't be necessary.

Quote:
If even that doesn't help, I would reset Reaper to it's default settings. Quit Reaper, rename the ~/Library/Application Support/REAPER folder to something like "REAPER backup", start Reaper and try once more.
Problem exists, as I said, with a fresh install of Reaper on a fresh install of Lion, and Mountain Lion. Default as it can be.

Quote:
If you still get the clicks, I have no idea how to stop them.
You didn't suggest trying different USB cables, trying a different interface, trying a different computer, or upgrading the operating system to the current one, but I did those as well. Thank you for all of your advice, really, but I'm not new at this.

My concern is that they may not be my clicks, they may be Apple's. A large part of the 10.8.2 update was USB audio noise issues. I think perhaps they're not done. In fact, I know they're not, because I was reading a thread about the 10.8.3 beta today which referenced solving different USB audio issues.

What I would do:
Try my test on your system.
Report back.
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Old 12-31-2012, 12:29 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nottooloud View Post
Zooming in, I could see a single sample, or a string of a few samples, clearly displaced from the waveform. Sometimes it's a short section of the waveform with flipped polarity.
It sounds like you are describing the result of dropped samples. If a random number of samples get dropped, the waveforms will not be continuous at the splice. This basically creates a square wave at that point which you hear as a click.

Looking at your screen shot, it looks more like data corruption than lost samples.

Lots of potential causes.

1st question: Did it work without error in the past?
If yes, it points to hardware failure. Check cables first.
If no (found the errors in older stuff, etc), then you have to find the bottleneck.

Computer should be fine. That Mac Mini should be a little monster.
Harddrive(s) acting up?
Too much going on on the USB bus?
Using some new plugin that could be misbehaving?

Have you experimented with larger sample buffer sizes?

I use firewire interfaces (see signature). I run Reaper for live sound while recording multitrack for all inputs and all fx. 32 inputs. Sample buffer 128 (what you can get away with is VERY plugin dependent), running at 24/48. Total latency 11ms (analog input to analog output). My system test is to record all 32 tracks for 4 or so hours, a few times a day, for a week. There can be no errors. Not even one would be allowed. I have points of reference to scrutinize such things. Reaper is perfect. That's all there is to it.

I'm still running 10.6 tho. But didn't you say you had the same problem with older OSX and even Windows XP? If I read that wrong... Did you try 10.6 if you suspect issues with 10.7?

Last edited by serr; 12-31-2012 at 01:07 AM.
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Old 12-31-2012, 10:20 AM   #6
nottooloud
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[QUOTE=serr;1095985]
Quote:
1st question: Did it work without error in the past?
If yes, it points to hardware failure. Check cables first.
If no (found the errors in older stuff, etc), then you have to find the bottleneck.

Computer should be fine. That Mac Mini should be a little monster.
Harddrive(s) acting up?
Too much going on on the USB bus?
Using some new plugin that could be misbehaving?

Have you experimented with larger sample buffer sizes?
As it says above, problem was first noticed in August, tried other cables, two different computers, fresh install of OS and Reaper, no plug-ins at all, 512 buffer. Additional info, nothing else plugged into laptop USB, only a keyboard plugged into the MacMini, two different hard drives in the Macmini plus the drive in the laptop. No, no, no. Thank you for the helpful suggestions, but I'm not asking for troubleshooting assistance. I'm asking for people to run a simple test on their own systems.

Quote:
My system test is to record all 32 tracks for 4 or so hours, a few times a day, for a week. There can be no errors. Not even one would be allowed. I have points of reference to scrutinize such things. Reaper is perfect. That's all there is to it.
This I'm curious about. What's your methodology? How exactly do you determine if there's been an error?

Quote:
I'm still running 10.6 tho. But didn't you say you had the same problem with older OSX and even Windows XP? If I read that wrong
Yes, you read that wrong. Cursory test was OK on XP, first noticed the problem in August.

Quote:
Did you try 10.6 if you suspect issues with 10.7?
My task today is a fresh install of 10.6, if the MacMini will take it. It was bought with Lion installed.
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Old 12-31-2012, 11:25 AM   #7
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You can install any intell version of OSX on that Mac Mini.

Very simple method to check on things: record a digital source on at least one of the inputs. Subtract the result from the original. Should be the exact same number of samples long and all zeros. You can rest assured that I'm not missing any errors. (When I've made comments in the past like "Ableton doesn't work" "Studio One doesn't work", it's based on this level of testing.)

So you haven't experimented with increasing the buffer size? (You indicate that you've only tried 512 sample buffer - unless I missed something.) This should tell you if you have hardware failure (no settings work) or just slow high latency performance (big numbers work).

It sounds like either you have uncovered a compatibility bug in 10.7 or your USB interfaces are not low latency enough for your needs (this may be an example of why USB is frowned upon by some).

Last edited by serr; 12-31-2012 at 08:56 PM.
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Old 01-02-2013, 12:29 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serr View Post
You can install any intell version of OSX on that Mac Mini.
Well, that was non-trivial. The 2011 Macmini won't boot off of a 10.6.n disk. You can get there by putting it in target disk mode, installing from a Snow Leopard-friendly machine, copying some kexts from a Lion install, and editing some stuff. Anyway, got there.

Problem still exists, so it's clearly not OS-related. Almost has to be a hardware issue common to both of my machines. Perhaps a faulty interface damaged all of the USB ports. Or something. I still would love for someone to run my test and report back.
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Old 01-02-2013, 03:26 PM   #9
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I have been on the hunt for some bug of this kind on several machines. All of them run Lion or Mountain Lion. But your test seems to indicate that even Snow is affected on newer machines.

And that seems to confirm that this is a hardware issue with newer machines. I suspect i5 and i7 models, but haven't gotten around to checking all the USB chipsets used in those.

The strangest thing is that I am unable to reproduce it reliably. Identical machines with identical soft- and hardware behave differently.

It's also not strictly OSX only. That's why I suspect it's hardware related.

I'm also fairly certain it's not a Reaper problem. All DAW's seem to have it. And even video over USB or Firewire sometimes has the same problem on these newer machines. But most users seem unaffected.
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Old 01-02-2013, 04:47 PM   #10
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It's been inconsistent even on one machine with one configuration.
Sometimes it's fine. That's trues less and less often, though.
That's another part of the puzzle. It used to be fine. It's getting worse.
Perhaps there's a hardware piece that's prone to failure.

I'm in to the Apple Store tomorrow so they can order a new logic board.
I'll report back.
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Old 01-02-2013, 05:59 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nottooloud View Post
I still would love for someone to run my test and report back.
I surely will once I find a suitable time to make a 1h recording.
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