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05-14-2012, 09:48 AM
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#41
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Unwired (probably in the proximity of Amsterdam)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Breeder
This is a nice idea, but what happens when you select both beats and time to be shown in the ruler?
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One is primary, the other secondary. The primary selection should reflect the actual timebase being used, and the secondary should only be for display purposes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Breeder
If you plan on removing the "zoominess" of tempo changes, at least leave it as an option.
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It's perfectly fine to have an option to use the absolute timebase for zooming even though the project uses musical timebase, but such inconsistent behavior should definitely not be the default.
__________________
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05-14-2012, 09:48 AM
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#42
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 559
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I think I get your point. But I am not sure I totally agree.
For 100% midi works, I don't see any problem. But I don't understand how audio would be displayed in this version:
The audio item would be visually stretched to match your musical length. Or did I miss something?
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05-14-2012, 10:11 AM
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#43
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Unwired (probably in the proximity of Amsterdam)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miche
I think I get your point. But I am not sure I totally agree.
For 100% midi works, I don't see any problem. But I don't understand how audio would be displayed in this version:
The audio item would be visually stretched to match your musical length. Or did I miss something?
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That would probably be the most consistent solution, yes. Stretching differently for sections with different playback speeds measured in absolute time.
Whatever anyone would consider to be problematic about that, please understand that those are exactly the type of problems REAPER users can not avoid currently when using musical timebase. Things just don't look and feel 'right'.
And it also illustrates that it is in fact a "premature optimization" issue. As far as I can see, none of it matters when any of the following conditions apply:
- the user does not use audio files;
- the user does not need use audio files to be displayed as waveforms;
- the user does not use a musical timebase;
- the user does not use different pre-programmed tempi.
Still, the current behavior gets very much in the way of any user who wants to use MIDI with a musical timebase.
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05-14-2012, 10:37 AM
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#44
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,790
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I agree with Banned one million percent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by miche
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THIS is what I exactly EXPECT to see when working in musical timebase. Which Reaper obviously doesn't have in a proper way, yet.
Last edited by EvilDragon; 05-14-2012 at 10:45 AM.
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05-14-2012, 10:53 AM
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#45
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-blänk-
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 11,359
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Usually when a measure takes longer/shorter because of a tempo change, I want that reflected in my arrange, even though I use beats as my main reference. To me it feels like the natural way to look at it, rather than equal length of bars in the ruler/arrange but the playhead changing it's tempo instead. An option to have it so is ok for me, but I'm not sure I'll use it.
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05-14-2012, 11:27 AM
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#46
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 559
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gofer
An option to have it so is ok for me, but I'm not sure I'll use it.
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I think I agree with gofer here
I always thought that what imposed the DAW measure *visual length* was the raw audio item, and I must say I got quite used to that.
Just out of curiosity: is there any DAW out there that uses this musical timebase layout for audio content (or mixed audio / midi) ?
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05-14-2012, 11:32 AM
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#47
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,111
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Moving multiple tempo envelope points does not work as expected.
You can move single point independently, but moving more than one selected points is not allowed without also moving all unselected points following the selected points.
I can't find a way to change tempo of only one region in the middle of song if this region contains multiple tempos. Selecting all tempo envelope points in that region and moving them up/down would be the expected solution, but it does not work.
jnif
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05-14-2012, 11:39 AM
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#48
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Unwired (probably in the proximity of Amsterdam)
Posts: 4,868
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gofer
Usually when a measure takes longer/shorter because of a tempo change, I want that reflected in my arrange, even though I use beats as my main reference. To me it feels like the natural way to look at it, rather than equal length of bars in the ruler/arrange but the playhead changing it's tempo instead. An option to have it so is ok for me, but I'm not sure I'll use it.
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Then you would just be using musical timebase as REAPER's secondary indicator, but as *your* main reference.
I can definitely see how it feels completely 'natural' to anyone who has used REAPER long enough. And as noted before, I can see the use of 'mixed' modes of displaying both musical and absolute time references very well - especially within REAPER's single track type paradigm, where both audio and MIDI can be used on the same track.
But getting lost in arguments around pre-programmed tempo changes and so on is completely missing my point: REAPER currently can not consistently use a musical timebase, no matter how hard you try to customize it's behavior (please tell me if I missed anything, as I would *really* like to be wrong on that). That makes no sense at all for an app which advertises itself as "not discriminating against MIDI." Arguably, it doesn't. But it does discriminate against using a musical timebase.
I'd gladly give up any of the other three assumptions/features mentioned previously in order to get REAPER to use a musical timebase consistently, in order of preference:
- no audio files displayed as waveforms;
- no pre-programmed tempo changes;
- no use of audio files.
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Last edited by Banned; 05-14-2012 at 11:47 AM.
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05-14-2012, 11:41 AM
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#49
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Unwired (probably in the proximity of Amsterdam)
Posts: 4,868
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miche
I think I agree with gofer here
I always thought that what imposed the DAW measure *visual length* was the raw audio item, and I must say I got quite used to that.
Just out of curiosity: is there any DAW out there that uses this musical timebase layout for audio content (or mixed audio / midi) ?
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Imho you are confusing "DAW" with "MIDI sequencer", obscuring the actual problem. My counter-question: is there *any* MIDI sequencer that can not handle tempo changes while playing?
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05-14-2012, 12:15 PM
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#50
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Banned
Imho you are confusing "DAW" with "MIDI sequencer", obscuring the actual problem. My counter-question: is there *any* MIDI sequencer that can not handle tempo changes while playing?
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But Reaper is a DAW. And most other DAWs seem to behave the same way as Reaper. More options are of course OK.
I think you are obscuring the solution because tempo changes while playling could be handled in a musical way without changing the timeline "tempo zooming" behaviour.
jnif
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05-14-2012, 12:17 PM
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#51
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,790
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miche
Just out of curiosity: is there any DAW out there that uses this musical timebase layout for audio content (or mixed audio / midi) ?
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Cubase has this option, where it shows all bars having equal length (well, that would depend on your time signatures, as well!), and the playhead slows down or speeds up depending on tempo. It's called "linear timeline mode" or something like that (don't recall, correct me if I'm wrong).
Let's remember, MIDI music sequencing virtually started with Cubase back in Atari days. Although it's very bloated now, there is LOTS Reaper could learn from it. FROM OVER TWENTY YEARS AGO!
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05-14-2012, 12:24 PM
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#52
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-blänk-
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 11,359
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Banned
Imho you are confusing "DAW" with "MIDI sequencer", obscuring the actual problem. My counter-question: is there *any* MIDI sequencer that can not handle tempo changes while playing?
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I don't see how that's a question of how measures/beats against time is visually represented?
Btw, you can switch the views in the MIDI editor already (beats vs time), so apart from audio graphics stretching it shouldn't be much of a problem.
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05-14-2012, 12:28 PM
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#53
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 1,972
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ahem
Why do you guys need such tempo raping? Sorry for being maybe too oldskool, but i guess 99% of modern music (not sure about the classical music) has been made with constant tempo and time signature. I know i know i guess i wrong
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05-14-2012, 12:34 PM
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#54
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-blänk-
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 11,359
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Oh, no let's not go there. Tempo is obviously an important aspect of music. Tempo/signatures should work the best imaginable way for everybody. No doubt there, I hope.
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05-14-2012, 12:35 PM
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#55
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 1,972
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I agree. Point
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05-14-2012, 12:35 PM
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#56
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 1,972
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Just bored with the flu But i don't want to go to lounge forum LOL
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05-14-2012, 12:37 PM
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#57
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Unwired (probably in the proximity of Amsterdam)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jnif
But Reaper is a DAW. And most other DAWs seem to behave the same way as Reaper. More options are of course OK.
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It's not my fault that REAPER happens to define "DAW" to *include* MIDI, although MIDI sequencing can be done perfectly with *all* audio entirely within the *analog* domain. I did so for a very long time, and occasionally still do so.
Quoted from http://www.cockos.com/reaper/
Quote:
Originally Posted by REAPER
REAPER is digital audio workstation software: a complete [...] MIDI recording, editing, processing, mixing, and mastering environment.
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Ironically, "playback" is not mentioned. Perhaps that explains it all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jnif
I think you are obscuring the solution because tempo changes while playling could be handled in a musical way without changing the timeline "tempo zooming" behaviour.
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Fair enough, I agree that these design flaws are not *necessarily* related at all. I'm still keeping my fingers crossed to see any fix for tempo changes while playing, even if that would leave the display rezooming issue completely unresolved. After all these years of waiting, I'll gladly take *any* fix I can get.
But they are both annoying design flaws, and they are both related to musical timebase not being used consistently by REAPER. So I don't think it is obscuring the solution at all, it is pointing out that imho the problem pointed out by PooFox is merely a symptom of a bigger issue yet to be resolved.
[ EDIT: - or actually, on second thought, the issue with tempo changes while playing do not seem to be strictly related to the use of musical timebase. The accompanying (un)zooming is another example of the bigger issue, but the handling realtime tempo changes itself is not directly related to consistent use of musical timebase. Sorry for any confusion there. ]
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Last edited by Banned; 05-14-2012 at 02:11 PM.
Reason: added clarification
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05-14-2012, 12:45 PM
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#58
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 559
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Banned
Imho you are confusing "DAW" with "MIDI sequencer", obscuring the actual problem. My counter-question: is there *any* MIDI sequencer that can not handle tempo changes while playing?
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Not too sure I get your point, since Reaper is a DAW
Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon
Cubase has this option, where it shows all bars having equal length
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Ok so I'm really learning something, I didn't know about that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon
there is LOTS Reaper could learn from it.
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I'm not going to contradict you here. But let's just leave the developers some time
Quote:
Originally Posted by Viente
Just bored with the flu But i don't want to go to lounge forum LOL
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haha, aren't you supposed to be sick with flu, and not bored
Quote:
+ Improved support for international characters in many places (EDL import/export, system path definitions, etc)
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V4.22 improved international characters. Sweet. But please, fix the DDP buggy behavior when writing track names with accents!
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05-14-2012, 12:49 PM
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#59
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Unwired (probably in the proximity of Amsterdam)
Posts: 4,868
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viente
ahem
Why do you guys need such tempo raping? Sorry for being maybe too oldskool, but i guess 99% of modern music (not sure about the classical music) has been made with constant tempo and time signature. I know i know i guess i wrong
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Perhaps 99% of modern music is made entirely with REAPER, and even though the makers wished they could have avoided using a constant tempo, they wouldn't give up on using REAPER for all the tempo-related features in the universe?
But indeed, let's not go there.
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05-14-2012, 12:52 PM
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#60
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Unwired (probably in the proximity of Amsterdam)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miche
Not too sure I get your point, since Reaper is a DAW
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I know. But also see my reply in post #57 above please. REAPER has the ambition to be much more than just a DAW, using a more literal definition of the term. And I'll be the first one to agree that it is a daunting task to be both a great DAW and a great MIDI sequencer.
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05-14-2012, 12:55 PM
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#61
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-blänk-
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 11,359
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I can't reproduce what PooFox reports (that the marker you edit lands on a wrong position). The following marker moves visually, but it stays on the correct grid position.
I think whether the folowing marker should visually move, or beats are shown as equal length is a personal preference. I can totally see me using equal beats if I ever get used to the MIDI inline editor .
If I remember correctly your main issue is that when you change BPM while playback, the arrange sort of slides back and forth under the (moving) playhead, because the playhead moves in time, not in beats. I think that's a whole different beast.
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05-14-2012, 12:58 PM
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#62
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 1,972
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Banned
Perhaps 99% of modern music is made entirely with REAPER, and even though the makers wished they could have avoided using a constant tempo, they wouldn't give up on using REAPER for all the tempo-related features in the universe?
But indeed, let's not go there.
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I was just kidding
I want to see musical timebase as well
I'm getting nervous when my arrange grid line is not the same within a project
Actually i don't think its hard to implement especially with already having vari speed in Reaper
Last edited by Viente; 05-14-2012 at 01:05 PM.
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05-14-2012, 02:19 PM
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#63
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Ukraine
Posts: 290
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Dreaming music
chriscomfort, I listened your music, interesting work, especially The Eye's of Thieves pleasant style, keep going with that kind of music
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05-14-2012, 02:51 PM
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#64
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Administrator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: NY
Posts: 15,749
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With all due respect to those who want this feature to change, at the moment REAPER always displays the timeline in linear time, not linear beats, and that won't change for this release number. I say that only in the interest of focusing the discussion on ironing out bugs with the recent changes to how tempo and time signature changes are handled. There are plenty of bugs to iron out, but as far as I can tell the bug reported in post #8 is rather a misreading of the timeline.
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05-14-2012, 03:51 PM
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#65
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,790
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"Bars+Beats Linear ruler mode", that's how it's called in Cubase, yes.
I hope this gets added soon...
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05-14-2012, 05:43 PM
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#66
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Oblivion
Posts: 10,255
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Bug (time sig marker before measure 1)
Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa
as far as I can tell the bug reported in post #8 is rather a misreading of the timeline.
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ok i didn't notice before, but the bug is apparently related to my default project starting at measure 0. the time sig marker cannot be dragged left of one without the behavior described in that post.
attempting to drag a time signature marker behind measure 1 triggers the bug.
licecap wont help me prove it with a gif right now...
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05-14-2012, 06:01 PM
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#67
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Oblivion
Posts: 10,255
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also, where is the best place to currently discuss the timebase inconsistencies? i don't get why it's such an insurmountable problem, but it's limiting me severely (as in i have involved projects that i can't finish until this gets fixed).
i'm sure i'm oversimplifying, but why can't timebase just be an arbitrary reference with high enough resolution to accommodate time and beat base changes without bias? or am i completely off base and topic now?
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05-14-2012, 10:50 PM
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#68
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon
"Bars+Beats Linear ruler mode", that's how it's called in Cubase, yes.
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In Pro Tools it is called "Linear Tick Display". The default setting is "Linear Sample Display" which is the same as in Reaper.
But imho that is not the most important tempo related feature that should be "copied" from PT to Reaper.
I would be happy to see varispeed/elastic audio items implemented first. Currently it is very awkward to change tempo in the middle of audio items. You have to manually split audio items before tempo changes. Most of the other major DAWs can handle tempo changes without splitting audio items.
jnif
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05-15-2012, 12:17 AM
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#69
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Norway
Posts: 7,318
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I believe time is the correct zoom-reference for the ruler (I'm among other things thinking of the display of reapeaks), but of course beat could be a nice option.
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Reaper x64, win 11
Composer, text-writer, producer
Bandcamp
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05-15-2012, 12:54 AM
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#70
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Caracas, Venezuela
Posts: 8,676
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4 + 2 + 3 = 9
pre 9
released on May 9th
999
flip that
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Pressure is what turns coal into diamonds - Michael a.k.a. Runaway
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05-15-2012, 12:56 AM
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#71
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 22,754
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viente
ahem
Why do you guys need such tempo raping? Sorry for being maybe too oldskool, but i guess 99% of modern music (not sure about the classical music) has been made with constant tempo and time signature. I know i know i guess i wrong
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Time signatures are pretty much supposed to be a constant unless there is a time cvhange in the peice put there deliberately, so that part is honestly a red herring.
Apart from in Country music and early country blues, where odd bars of 2/4 in the middle of a 4/4 tune are common.
But tempo - yep you are right. Should be able to vasry that wherever and whenever you like. BUT in correctly notated music it will normally be there. Apart from if it is just a rallantando or summat.
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05-15-2012, 03:36 AM
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#72
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Norway
Posts: 7,318
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viente
Why do you guys need such tempo raping? Sorry for being maybe too oldskool, but i guess 99% of modern music (not sure about the classical music) has been made with constant tempo and time signature. I know i know i guess i wrong
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And some music have no dynamics either because it's squeezed by limiters and compressors. So, why care about tempo?
Well, personally in 95% of my projects I use tempo-changes.
Imagine a classical orchestra, then firing the conductor, replacing him/her with a 4/4 90bpm metronome.
Some people are happy with that, calling it modern music.
I'm not as I find tempo-variations to be a very important aspect of my musical expression.
Many serious musicians bypass most of the daw-tempo-subject by doing things live, by ear only, and not to a click. That's of course the preferred way, and will yield best results. However, many of us are aiming towards making complex arrangements on our own, and then we find having a daw-beat-grid is just so helpful.
Time-signature-changes: Some times you just need them. That's the way a lot of music is. Look at Beatles, look at Loyd Webber..
__________________
Reaper x64, win 11
Composer, text-writer, producer
Bandcamp
Last edited by G-Sun; 05-15-2012 at 03:49 AM.
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05-15-2012, 04:10 AM
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#73
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 673
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miche
Not too sure I get your point, since Reaper is a DAW
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Actually, it's more like a DAME (Digital Audio and MIDI Environment), and as we know, there's nothing like a DAME!
Let's shut the door on boring old "DAW" and start working with the (much more exciting) "DAME" instead!
Last edited by Xasman; 05-15-2012 at 10:51 AM.
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05-15-2012, 04:23 AM
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#74
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Norway
Posts: 7,318
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xasman
Let's shut the door on boring old "DAW" and start working with the (much more exciting) "DAME" instead!
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In Norwegian "Dame" is woman
__________________
Reaper x64, win 11
Composer, text-writer, producer
Bandcamp
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05-15-2012, 04:53 AM
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#75
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 673
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Sun
In Norwegian "Dame" is woman
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Just as in English, then ( http://youtu.be/jy-fVA83gu8)!
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05-15-2012, 04:58 AM
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#76
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Middle of nowhere (where the cheese comes from)
Posts: 483
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xasman
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...and German
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05-15-2012, 05:03 AM
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#77
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 439
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Sun
In Norwegian "Dame" is woman
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in french too
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05-15-2012, 05:40 AM
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#78
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,790
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In Croatian, it means plural of high-class ladies.
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05-15-2012, 06:29 AM
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#79
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Unwired (probably in the proximity of Amsterdam)
Posts: 4,868
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xasman
Actually, it's more like a DAME (Digital Audio and MIDI Environment), and as we know, everyone likes a DAME!
Let's shut the door on boring old "DAW" and start working with the (much more exciting) "DAME" instead!
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I like that suggestion very much.
It means the same in Dutch, and I indeed much prefer working with dames over working with dawgs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon
In Croatian, it means plural of high-class ladies.
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Oh wow, you Croatians get more high-class ladies than us? Even though that sounds a bit unfair to the rest of us, I hope you don't have to share them with a plurality of users.
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05-15-2012, 06:30 AM
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#80
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Unwired (probably in the proximity of Amsterdam)
Posts: 4,868
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercado_Negro
4 + 2 + 3 = 9
pre 9
released on May 9th
999
flip that
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Have you been playing with Numerology?
__________________
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