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Old 01-31-2015, 08:12 AM   #1
Pook2000
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Default Recording/Mixing DI instruments with miked ones.

Hi,

Just wondering what people's experiences are with recording/mixing a combination of DI instruments with miked instruments?

For instance if you recorded a number of guitar/bass parts DI what would be the best approach then to recording the vocal or sax parts for instance?

Would a heavily insulated vocal booth be the way to go so as to get as dry a signal as possible, without reflections, so that you could then place all parts at mix time in the space you want? Would this be the best approach?

I'd love to hear people's experiences or thoughts in this regard. As ever thanks!

P.
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Old 01-31-2015, 08:20 AM   #2
Fergler
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It depends on the arrangement, how important the horns are. If it's a solo or decorated line that needs to be heard I'd say yes get it as dry as you can.

But horn sections with long held notes can fit a lot better behind clean dry instruments with a bit of room sound.

The downside of course of recording an entire section at once is the players have to be really good at listening to each other - something that did not happen in this session:

http://picosong.com/LVer/

http://picosong.com/LVeZ/

The sax doesn't swell the same way the trombone and trumpet do, and the attacks are inconsistent from the horns.

Compression helped but there wasn't much I could do for the room mics.

I'd say it's a lot easier to fake that roomy sound with a bunch of close mics recording one track at a time than it is to get intermediate players play like they've played with each other for 20 years.

I can also say though you don't need a dead vocal booth to do this. Sax is a really easy one to get a nice dry sound from just about anywhere. Put a condensor or large dynamic such as the RE320 or SM7 pointing above the bell at the sound holes. If the player is going to be using their full range you probably should move the mic back so it's about 1-2 feet away at least to get the full range equally. If they are playing the same 3 or 4 notes next to each other in the scale, as is common for any horn background part, you can mic closer and find the best spot on the instrument to capture those notes well.

Ask the sax player to consider their alternate fingerings in such a way that they can minimize having to press on keys and rather just lift up already pressed keys, if it's possible, because key clicking is the worst part about recording sax players (other than dealing with sax players ).
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Old 01-31-2015, 09:23 AM   #3
Pook2000
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Hi Fergler,

This is just great information! Exactly what I'm looking for. Thanks a lot for sharing.

So I'll be more precise about the projected setup given you're talking key clicks et al, (which is exactly what I need to be considering).

Guitars X 2 - Charvel for 'bright' and Les Paul for 'round'. Both guitars will interchangeably play lead, rhythm or picking parts. Plan - DI with colour from amp sims and subsequent processing. I could also re-amp these parts in a studio if I need to but if I can keep it in the box I'd prefer to do it that way.

Bass X 1 - Fender Jazz (short scale) Plan - (as above).

Drums - if I can get away with using EZ drummer I will. There's enough choice in the samples here and they're well recorded. With a little creativity and musical integrity I think I can get these parts to work. If I need to record a drummer/kit I can have it done.

Percussion - Plan - live in a room, somewhere, studio, not sure as yet. Best place?

Sax (soprano and sopranino) and Flute - using their full range, mostly melodically but possibly in supporting/filler harmonic roles also. Key clicks and more clicks!! I'm also concerned about the dynamics of individual instruments and how they vary in different octaves. Anything I really need to consider? Compress the signal on the way in? These guys are the ones I'm most scared about.

Synths - I'm not sure yet but there may be synths in there too for ambience, atmosphere, effect and possibly some lead/counter subject lines.

It's not a problem taking the whole project into a studio, (which is a personal one for me), but as much as I can I want to learn how to record this stuff for myself and do as much in the box at home as I'm able. Just for the joy of doing it this way, (the kettle is only a few feet away).

Thanks again.
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Old 01-31-2015, 12:21 PM   #4
serr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pook2000 View Post
Hi,

Just wondering what people's experiences are with recording/mixing a combination of DI instruments with miked instruments?

For instance if you recorded a number of guitar/bass parts DI what would be the best approach then to recording the vocal or sax parts for instance?

Would a heavily insulated vocal booth be the way to go so as to get as dry a signal as possible, without reflections, so that you could then place all parts at mix time in the space you want? Would this be the best approach?

I'd love to hear people's experiences or thoughts in this regard. As ever thanks!

P.
It makes no difference in the technique arrived at to capture a sound (mic, DI, or other). The point is getting the sound you hear/want (or as close to it as possible).

As for ambiance vs. the fundamental sound, this is still an arrangement/taste decision. Recording a fundamental sound "live" with an ambient component locks you into that arrangement. Recording a fundamental sound dry (assuming such is possible) gives you the option to dial up ambiance to order during the mix.
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Old 01-31-2015, 12:36 PM   #5
Fergler
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Sax (soprano and sopranino) and Flute - using their full range, mostly melodically but possibly in supporting/filler harmonic roles also. Key clicks and more clicks!! I'm also concerned about the dynamics of individual instruments and how they vary in different octaves. Anything I really need to consider? Compress the signal on the way in? These guys are the ones I'm most scared about.
No I'd definitely not worry about compression or anything on the way in.

You should get the two players playing together (assuming this is 3 separate people?) if you're going to mic all at once. You can get nice control though if you lay them out like this (crude mockup )



Cardioid close mics on the three, they can all look at each other which is important for cut offs and such. The room mic is optional and you may automate its volume quite a lot.

You may need to adjust the timing just slightly of 2 of the close mics to minimize phase issues in the bleed. You may try flipping polarity on some of them as well.

What is most important though is that they all understand that swells being the same across all the instruments and coming in at the same time and also ending notes as the same time is the most important thing.

The close micing will give you a lot of leeway for EQing say the harshness out of the flute without ruining the sax sounds, and also of course you can pan them individually. The room mic if it works out will be the glue across the tracks, just like it is for drum sessions.

Quote:
(the kettle is only a few feet away)
Not familiar with this figure of speech, what do you mean?
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Old 01-31-2015, 12:50 PM   #6
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Recording a fundamental sound "live" with an ambient component locks you into that arrangement. Recording a fundamental sound dry (assuming such is possible) gives you the option to dial up ambiance to order during the mix.
Okay excellent. And this really is the way I want to go, (dry, dry, dry). And as Fergler was suggesting a clean sound can be got, (at least with sax), quite easily in any space this affords me a little more freedom in where I end up recording 'room' parts.

Thank you!

P.
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Old 01-31-2015, 01:01 PM   #7
Pook2000
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Okay, all great advice and glad now I asked. Reassuring.

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Originally Posted by Fergler View Post
You may need to adjust the timing just slightly of 2 of the close mics to minimize phase issues in the bleed. You may try flipping polarity on some of them as well.
When you say to readjust the timing do you mean stagger the close mic tracks by a couple of ms?

Oh and there'd be only one sax player playing either soprano or sopranino. So one sax player and one flautist. Could I just flip the phase on one of these tracks then?

Like the idea of the ambient mic too. Makes good sense.

Thanks so much again for this input! Very useful!

Re: The kettle's only a few feet away. TEA and COFFEE
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Old 01-31-2015, 09:17 PM   #8
Fergler
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Okay, all great advice and glad now I asked. Reassuring.



When you say to readjust the timing do you mean stagger the close mic tracks by a couple of ms?

Oh and there'd be only one sax player playing either soprano or sopranino. So one sax player and one flautist. Could I just flip the phase on one of these tracks then?

Like the idea of the ambient mic too. Makes good sense.

Thanks so much again for this input! Very useful!

Re: The kettle's only a few feet away. TEA and COFFEE
Ok I read too much into it I guess haha

Yes I mean adjusting by some ms, where needed. There is are JS effects that come with Reaper that are great for this.

1 Less player! That's awesome. One less mic and that means you can get a better (opposite) angle between the two players for maximum rejection.

I doubt there will be much bleed issues here. Phasing isn't too big a deal when the signals are of vastly different amplitudes, between the two mics. Flipping polarity may or may not be a quick fix if there is any issue, and moving a mic by some ms may be another.

The easiest thing is to put the players as far from each other, facing each other, as the room and their comfort allows. They will be able to look at each other and this should help things a lot.
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Old 02-01-2015, 07:29 AM   #9
Pook2000
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I doubt there will be much bleed issues here. Phasing isn't too big a deal when the signals are of vastly different amplitudes, between the two mics. Flipping polarity may or may not be a quick fix if there is any issue, and moving a mic by some ms may be another.

The easiest thing is to put the players as far from each other, facing each other, as the room and their comfort allows. They will be able to look at each other and this should help things a lot.
Great Fergler. Thanks again for your help and insight on this account. Much appreciated!

One thing. Could I track the sax/flute parts separately? Both parts will be interdependent in the sense there'll be dialogue between them and they'll need to balance but just to throw it out there and consider another option. And one that would afford total separation.

It's probably better that both players balance and gel with each other by playing at the same time, but what do you think? Pros, cons etc

Cheers!!

P.
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Old 02-04-2015, 07:18 PM   #10
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Years ago I recorded as dry as I could. That didn't always mean DI. Even when miking I would get as close to the source as possible. I remember recording a sax by sticking the mic into the back of a closet and having the player face into the hanging clothes. I had limited track count, so I didn't want to be tied to a sound. I left that for mixdown. At that point I would use my FX sends to feed my single reverb.
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