Old 04-09-2017, 02:58 PM   #201
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I'd use this. But I wouldn't say it should be default.
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Old 04-13-2017, 04:35 PM   #202
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I just saw this video about Reaper 5.1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43_JHOCJvsA

At 8:22 it shows a function called "Reaper Media Item Take Envelope" which seems to be item-based automation. This function does not seem to exist anymore. Unless I am mistaken, that function was already pretty close to what Automation Items do. And it was different from today's Take Envelopes because it was not limited to Volume, Pan, Pitch and Mute. Does anyone know how that function compared to Automation Items and why it was removed?
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Old 04-13-2017, 04:49 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by Dehenry View Post
I just saw this video about Reaper 5.1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43_JHOCJvsA

At 8:22 it shows a function called "Reaper Media Item Take Envelope" which seems to be item-based automation. This function does not seem to exist anymore. Unless I am mistaken, that function was already pretty close to what Automation Items do. And it was different from today's Take Envelopes because it was not limited to Volume, Pan, Pitch and Mute. Does anyone know how that function compared to Automation Items and why it was removed?
The function shown in the video still exist, and it's different from this whole thread is all about.

Take envelope is NOT limited to Volume, Pan, Pitch and Mute, you can also automate FX parameter if there was an FX on its correspond ITEM as shown as video above.

OTOH Automation Item is an item in the envelope lane contains automation envelope to control track or FX parameter on its correspond TRACK.
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Old 04-13-2017, 05:07 PM   #204
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Ok, got it, thanks!
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Old 04-21-2017, 10:50 AM   #205
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Help!

Where's the ability on normal audio item envelopes to use a time selection to create 4 points at either end of the time selection when dragging within it via a mouse modifier?

This was super useful for fast editing and it seems to have broken unless I've just missed it in mouse modifiers?

Help!
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Old 04-21-2017, 05:37 PM   #206
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Are you referring to "move item", which splits the item at time selection boundaries when you drag, as opposed to "move item ignoring time selection", which just moves the item, no splitting? (these are mouse modifier options in the media item context).
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Old 04-22-2017, 01:55 AM   #207
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Whoops! sorry, the word "envelope" went missing! I meant to say envelopes on audio items.

You use to be able to use the time selection and a mouse modifier to adjust the envelope line inside of the time selection and reaper would automatically create envelope points at the start and the end of the time selection. This made it super fast to turn down a selection of audio for instance.

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Are you referring to "move item", which splits the item at time selection boundaries when you drag, as opposed to "move item ignoring time selection", which just moves the item, no splitting? (these are mouse modifier options in the media item context).
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Old 04-27-2017, 01:45 PM   #208
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Default Automation-bug when copying items and AIs at the same time?

I had an audio item I wanted to copy and also had an AI that was much longer than the audio item.

When I selected both and tried to move them, the AI got split at the end of the audio item which I wasn't expecting.

I was hoping that the whole AI would not split and instead move the whole of itself along with the normal audio item (as if both were normal items)

Am I doing something wrong or is this not possible? If not, I'm really hoping it can be!
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Old 05-03-2017, 01:02 PM   #209
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Is there a reason why we don't have a "Draw new Automation Item" mouse modifier action?

I understand that selecting nothing then using "Draw a copy of the selected automation item" works to make a new AI, but that is confusing and error prone.
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Old 05-03-2017, 01:14 PM   #210
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Is there a reason why we don't have a "Draw new Automation Item" mouse modifier action?

I understand that selecting nothing then using "Draw a copy of the selected automation item" works to make a new AI, but that is confusing and error prone.
We do, it's called "Collect points".



Bug:



The active mouse modifier dot for "Collect points" is wrongly placed on "Move edge" and vice versa.
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Old 05-03-2017, 01:18 PM   #211
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We do, it's called "Collect points".
That doesn't allow you to create an AI when there's no AIs on screen. That simply extends an existing AI.

The "Create new automation item" action would need to be an Envelope lane action.

Here's an example:



I'm zoomed in and want to create a new AI. So I hold option (alt) for the Envelope Lane action "Draw a copy of the selected automation item". This is the only mouse modifier we have to create a new AI...

However! I accidentally have another AI selected off screen. So I can not create a new AI, and instead I overwrite my envelope points with a copy.

That's no good.
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Old 05-03-2017, 02:28 PM   #212
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"Draw a copy of the selected automation item" can create a new, unpolled automation item, even if AIs exist on the envelope lane. You just have to make sure that no AIs are selected.
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Old 05-03-2017, 02:32 PM   #213
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"Draw a copy of the selected automation item" can create a new, unpolled automation item, even if AIs exist on the envelope lane. You just have to make sure that no AIs are selected.
Besides the fact that its not obvious (and I explicitly pointed out this behaviour), I showed why this can be an issue.
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Old 05-03-2017, 02:36 PM   #214
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I would say renaming the modifier to more accurately describe its behaviour would help in alleviating possible confusion.

I'm thinking it would be more confusing to have two modifiers that do nearly the same thing but not quite. This way, it's a bit of a "smart" tool. Do a pooled copy if some AIs are selected, otherwise draw new empty AI. Makes a ton of sense to me.
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Old 05-03-2017, 03:12 PM   #215
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I would say renaming the modifier to more accurately describe its behaviour would help in alleviating possible confusion.

I'm thinking it would be more confusing to have two modifiers that do nearly the same thing but not quite. This way, it's a bit of a "smart" tool. Do a pooled copy if some AIs are selected, otherwise draw new empty AI. Makes a ton of sense to me.
We already have tons of modifier actions that "do nearly the same thing but not quite".

One example of dozens:



I think this says plenty. Replace "media" with "automation" and there's a good start. Of course don't neglect the capability to simply draw an empty item... just not automation items.
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Old 05-06-2017, 10:00 AM   #216
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Another Request...

When you have an AI created with looping off (like above), there doesn't seem to be a way to loop it using a mouse modifier action.

There is also no action to toggle looping on an AI.


The only way to toggle looping seems to be using "Automation Item Properties".
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Old 05-18-2017, 10:47 AM   #217
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A small question I hope some kind person can answer.

My eyes are old and crappy. Clutter is the bane of my life

Is there any way to remove or hide the envelope content to the left and right of the automation item so it's just the automation item itself under it's item, and that's it for the entire automation-envelope track around it?

Yes, I know that some projects you'll most likely have a mix of autoclips and envelopes on the same parameter. Cool.

But I was just wondering if there is (or can be please) a setting that will make

"for X parameter" in its envelope lane = "show only automation items in this lane fr this parameter" (no normal envelope around it.
Maybe a secondary setting of course to return that parameter envelope automation lane to "show both envelopes and automation items" type thing) I believe that would make this a killer feature moving forward. Reaper's automation items are insanely awesome compared to other programs. So glad it's finally here

Hope this makes sense. (hate comparing Reaper to FL studio, sorry!)
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Old 05-18-2017, 06:39 PM   #218
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Nope, asked for it day 1, its not going to happen.
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Old 05-19-2017, 04:32 AM   #219
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if it doesn't, the "Automation items" FR is not fulfilled and all that's happened is that we've gotten greatly improved automation editing features - but not automation items. i will be extremely disappointed and frustrated that such a big part of this discussion went unaddressed.

please see ALL of my posts on in this thread for reference, esp those in page 5
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Old 05-19-2017, 04:38 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by musicbynumbers View Post
You use to be able to use the time selection and a mouse modifier to adjust the envelope line inside of the time selection and reaper would automatically create envelope points at the start and the end of the time selection. This made it super fast to turn down a selection of audio for instance.
This is still there. Just works automatically over here, on both take and regular envelopes. Just dragging a segment within the time selection creates 4 points that you want (Move segment mouse modifier)?
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Old 05-19-2017, 04:40 AM   #221
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if it doesn't, the "Automation items" FR is not fulfilled and all that's happened is that we've gotten greatly improved automation editing features - but not automation items. i will be extremely disappointed and frustrated that such a big part of this discussion went unaddressed.

please see ALL of my posts on in this thread for reference, esp those in page 5
http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...&postcount=171


What you probably want is "Automation items connect to the underlying envelope on the right side (chase/latch)", as that is essentially the same behaviour you want to happen. The only difference is visual - you see the underlying envelope.


@schwa - perhaps this is the solution - it's just visual! If the above option for connecting AIs to underlying envelope is selected, add a checkbox to "hide underlying envelope"?

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Old 05-19-2017, 05:05 AM   #222
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What you probably want is "Automation items connect to the underlying envelope on the right side (chase/latch)", as that is essentially the same behaviour you want to happen. The only difference is visual - you see the underlying envelope.


@schwa - perhaps this is the solution - it's just visual! If the above option for connecting AIs to underlying envelope is selected, add a checkbox to "hide underlying envelope"?
Just hiding envelope is not quite same though as having no envelope present at all between AI's in that with the latter you could adjust the fader freely between AI's.

See Cubase' 'Virgin Territory' feature (no AI's, but the principle of non-continious automation).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-WAKPx9Gys

(sorry, only found non-English version)

edit:
If non-continious automation won't be implemented for technical reasons (re: schwa's post), option to hide as you suggested would of course also be welcomed here.

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Old 05-19-2017, 05:19 AM   #223
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Just hiding envelope is not quite same though as having no envelope present at all between AI's in that with the latter you could adjust the fader freely between AI's.
Right, I get that. However I kinda fail to see the usefulness of that approach since you wouldn't be able to reproduce the particular fader position you moved during that "virgin territory" every time you play through it, no? Unless you're in write mode. But in that case it doesn't matter if the underlying envelope is shown or not, stuff gets written to it anyways (and in this case you BETTER be able to see it!).
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Old 05-19-2017, 05:32 AM   #224
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Right, I get that. However I kinda fail to see the usefulness of that approach since you wouldn't be able to reproduce the particular fader position you moved during that "virgin territory" every time you play through it, no? Unless you're in write mode. But in that case it doesn't matter if the underlying envelope is shown or not, stuff gets written to it anyways (and in this case you BETTER be able to see it!).
True, if you do dynamic fader movements it doesn't make much sense.
But I think the thought with this is, with the fader you set up the static overall level and then write automations on spots were necessary.

But I don't use Cubase (anymore) so I admit I'm not sure how useful this really is in practice.
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Old 05-19-2017, 06:10 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by mccrabney View Post
if it doesn't, the "Automation items" FR is not fulfilled and all that's happened is that we've gotten greatly improved automation editing features - but not automation items. i will be extremely disappointed and frustrated that such a big part of this discussion went unaddressed.

please see ALL of my posts on in this thread for reference, esp those in page 5
Oh, sorry. I didn't mean to bother anyone. I just was hoping for a way to have an option to change a setting for a certain parameter's envelope lane (independant of other lanes, of course). I thought I was missing an option somewhere where I could "hide connecting envelope lines" between automation items in a lane.

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What you probably want is "Automation items connect to the underlying envelope on the right side (chase/latch)", as that is essentially the same behaviour you want to happen. The only difference is visual - you see the underlying envelope.
@schwa - perhaps this is the solution - it's just visual! If the above option for connecting AIs to underlying envelope is selected, add a checkbox to "hide underlying envelope"?
Can this be possible on both sides of the automation item maybe? Might be good to have an option on a per envelope lane to decide if you want to see connecting envelope lines in general in the track (especially if indeed it only contains automation items).

Thanks for clearing it up for me, though I am still confused about moving forward with this concept.

ED,
Do you think that there is a way currently to hide underlying envelope for automation items in their lane? Automation items connect to the underlying envelope on the right side (chase/latch) and left side?

Thank you.
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Old 05-19-2017, 06:15 AM   #226
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Yes, you can connect AIs from both sides (see Preferences->Editing behavior->Automation), there's an option like that. However, it doesn't latch values but generates a ramp connecting the beginning/endpoints of AIs.

However no, you cannot hide the underlying envelope. Not a problem if you connect AIs with one of those options.
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Old 05-19-2017, 07:40 AM   #227
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whyyyy i check this forum, now i caaaaaaant wait to relase omg <3

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Old 05-19-2017, 07:40 AM   #228
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this should be clear by now. we don't need to merely HIDE it. it needs to be INACTIVE when there is no automation item. there should be no underlying envelope

ie, parameter is RELEASED from envelope completely and can be controlled by midi cc again without writing/engaging the actual envelope.
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Old 05-19-2017, 07:44 AM   #229
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Yeh, and then we go back to schwa's post about the complexities of adding it.

So, it's not impossible to do so, but it's not likely it'll happen right away. Or any time soon, even.
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Old 05-19-2017, 08:01 AM   #230
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Yes, you can connect AIs from both sides (see Preferences->Editing behavior->Automation), there's an option like that. However, it doesn't latch values but generates a ramp connecting the beginning/endpoints of AIs.

However no, you cannot hide the underlying envelope. Not a problem if you connect AIs with one of those options.
Oh, I see. Ok then. I'll check those options and try to see if that helps my eyes declutter the lanes a bit. Thank you ED.

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this should be clear by now. we don't need to merely HIDE it. it needs to be INACTIVE when there is no automation item. there should be no underlying envelope

ie, parameter is RELEASED from envelope completely and can be controlled by midi cc again without writing/engaging the actual envelope.
Honestly, I do agree with this thinking and of course it's obvious to see it implemented quite seamlessly in other competing DAWs, so it's clear that it is certainly doable yes.

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Yeh, and then we go back to schwa's post about the complexities of adding it.

So, it's not impossible to do so, but it's not likely it'll happen right away. Or any time soon, even.
ED,

Do you by chance know what post(s) you are talking about? I must have missed Schwa's post about why Reaper is different in that it can't be added "easily" as a feature.

I assume it's because of the native way Reaper implements envelope lanes and parameters in their code but, like before, if other DAWs can implement the concept, is it not safe to assume the talented Cockos dev team can find a way as well? I fully admit (and love) that Reaper has complex and powerful ways to do pretty much anything feature-wise vs. other DAWs but in this example, it sure would be nice if Reaper was more "traditional" with how they chose to implement automation from the very beginning.

That way, adding a common feature that DAWs have like automation items could be easier and more successful with the options this feature so clearly deserve.

Thanks.
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Old 05-19-2017, 08:04 AM   #231
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I linked to schwa's post a few posts up, look a bit

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That way, adding a common feature that DAWs have like automation items
It's not really "common", not all DAWs have it. Cubase, S1, PT, those are the BIG ones that don't have AIs (AFAIK).
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Old 05-19-2017, 09:01 AM   #232
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I linked to schwa's post a few posts up, look a bit



It's not really "common", not all DAWs have it. Cubase, S1, PT, those are the BIG ones that don't have AIs (AFAIK).
Very true indeed thank you again
It's too bad that automation items just don't have a separate independant lane of their own, that way you can see both envelope + auto items at the same time and control their visibility differently. That would fix what Schwa is talking about I think.
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Old 05-19-2017, 09:22 AM   #233
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Very true indeed thank you again
It's too bad that automation items just don't have a separate independant lane of their own
Why do you need this? We can show automation on track lane to have audio and automation items on the same lane. Schwa have written that he'll think about option to hide envelope and leave AI's only.
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Old 05-19-2017, 09:38 AM   #234
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That would fix what Schwa is talking about I think.
It wouldn't, the issue schwa is talking about would still be there for AIs.
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Old 05-19-2017, 09:49 AM   #235
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Why do you need this? We can show automation on track lane to have audio and automation items on the same lane. Schwa have written that he'll think about option to hide envelope and leave AI's only.
I was trying to think of a way to workaround what Schwa was saying the issue was with complexity. It's not something I personally need or want, it was just a fix attempt. I thought separating them literally, that would fix it. Sorry.

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It wouldn't, the issue schwa is talking about would still be there for AIs.
Oh. I thought a new lane "treatment" of the items vs envelopes would fix it. Clearly I am incorrect. Clearly auto items and envelopes are "tied" regardless of the lane separation, yes?
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Old 05-19-2017, 09:51 AM   #236
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Clearly auto items and envelopes are "tied" regardless of the lane separation, yes?
Yes, because they are essentially doing the same thing: sending automation messages to the plugin. So the problem schwa mentioned regarding sample-accuracy and not being able to start automation just anywhere in an audio buffer remain.
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Old 05-19-2017, 10:10 AM   #237
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Yes, because they are essentially doing the same thing: sending automation messages to the plugin. So the problem schwa mentioned regarding sample-accuracy and not being able to start automation just anywhere in an audio buffer remain.
You have a great way of explaining things where even people like me get it Thank you. Got it.
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Old 05-19-2017, 10:41 PM   #238
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Yeh, and then we go back to schwa's post about the complexities of adding it.

So, it's not impossible to do so, but it's not likely it'll happen right away. Or any time soon, even.
Yeah these automation items are what they are, they aren't great, but they are better than nothing, people are going to have to live with it, they don't seem to be getting any updates how they work
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