C aeolian = A minor ?

[for]

is C aeolian = A minor ?

[arbogast]

No. A minor = A aeolian. C major = C ionian.

[the all new rob]

Originally Posted by for

is C aeolian = A minor ?

A aeolian = A natural minor
C ionian = same pitches as A natural minor (also C major)

[jerome_oneil]

Originally Posted by for

is C aeolian = A minor ?

No. A Aeolian is A minor. It shares the same key signature with C, though. As does D dorian, E, Phrygian, F Lydian, G Myxolidian, and B Locrian.

Google up "modal scales."

[Jae.Thomas]

C Major = A Aeolian or A (natural) minor

In that, they contain the same notes, they just have a different root/starting note.

C Major =
CDEFGAB
A Minor =
ABCDEFG

The two chords, A minor and C major, share a relationship - A minor is the relative minor of C major. Many times since guitarists learn minor scales (Pentatonic), when someone says "key of D" guitarists can just find the relative minor (Bminor) and play the corresponding pentatonic scale. Minor scales typically follow similar patterns as the pentatonic scale but adds a 2nd and 6th.

[Fex]

What's C aeolian, then?

C aeolian = C minor = E♭ major?

My brain hurts.

[karbomusic]

Originally Posted by Fex

What's C aeolian, then?

C aeolian = C minor = E♭ major?

My brain hurts.

^Yes.

[whiteaxxxe]

oh my god, that is not so difficult. :-)))))

a mode is defined by the space between two notes in a scale. example: major means the you have 2 halftone steps between two notes, but one halftone step from 3 - 4 and 7 - 8. minor (natural, there are different modes of minor, be careful with that, very careful) means the halftone steps are between 2 - 3 and 5 - 6. simple.

as for the modes with the funny names (derived from ancient greek language, which has near to nothing to do with the nowadays greek language - a greek guy once told me, I dont know) are the so called church modes.

in short: you take a major - scale, but start it on the 2. note. or on the 3. note. or on the 4. note ... and so on.

every time you will end up with a different place where the halftone steps occur. the same you do with the different minor scales. the names of that scales? look it up ... I dont know and I dont care how these are called. I know how they work, never ever gave them a phone-call. so ...

the whole thing that confuses the in its essence extremly simple music-theory is that naming of notes with letters. this way you cant get a clue how their relations are. foget about the letters and use numbers. example: key is C major. you play II - V - I. simple. roman numbers are chords, arabic numbers are single notes. so in C major the IV consists of 4 - 6 - 1(=8). see this way how chords are built? II in C major consists of 2 - 4 - 6 ... done.

jazz musicians do this since the beginning of time. the tell you the root note and then you go along with numbers. for guitarists this system is genius. guitarists know why. keyboard-players are screwed, because of the black keys (not the band). guitarists can play every scale in every key on one string at least within 3 minutes after getting that number explanation. look at the fretboard and count.

anyway ... whats important is to forget about letters when talking notes. letters tell you nothing. numbers rule. :-)) music theory is a very small subset of maths. if you are able to count without major difficulties up to 8 there is no reason why you shouldnt be genius in music theory within half an hour. :-)))

[for]

can you tell me the notes in "D minor Dorian scale" ?

[alanofoz]

D minor is not Dorian!

D minor (natural minor) D E F G A Bb C D (same key sig as F major)
D Dorian D E F G A B C D (same key sig as C major)

[for]

Originally Posted by alanofoz

D minor is not Dorian!

D minor (natural minor) D E F G A Bb C D (same key sig as F major)
D Dorian D E F G A B C D (same key sig as C major)

right

so D minor = D aeolian......i keep forgetting aeolian = minor

[for]

so we have

Ionian
Dorian
Phrygian
Lydian
Mixolydian
Aeolian
Locrian

As far i understand for IONIAN u need to play it with a Major Chord
and AEOLIAN with a minor chord

for Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian and Locrian... what types of chords would suit them underneath?

[Fex]

Originally Posted by for

As far i understand for IONIAN u need to play it with a Major Chord
and AEOLIAN with a minor chord

Sort of.... not.

Let's start with Ionian - it's just the major scale you're most familiar with, the "doe ray me" scale. Now, you wouldn't say that for a major scale, "you need to play it with a major chord" - not if you understand that you can build a simple triad (chord) with any note of that scale at its root, simply by adding a third and a fifth, and that whether the chord will be a major chord or not depends on which note of the scale it is built on on. For example, in the scale of C major, in Ionian mode, the first note will produce the chord C major, whereas the sixth will produce the chord A minor. Or you can build 7th chords; C Maj7, Amin7.... the fifth produces G dominant seventh (G7).

I)   C maj7
II)  D min7
III) E min7
IV)  F maj7
V)   G7
VI)  A min7
VII) B min7♭5

Don't think of modes as scales. Think of them as ways of playing a scale. The very simple explanation of what a mode actually is has been provided here by whiteaxxxe;

Originally Posted by whiteaxxxe

you take a major - scale, but start it on the 2. note. or on the 3. note. or on the 4. note ... and so on.

You're still building chords on the same notes of the same scale. You're building the same chords. For C major in Dorian mode, those chords are:

I)   D min7
II)  E min7
III) F maj7
IV)  G7
V)   A min7
VI)  B min7♭5
VII) C maj7

Same chords as always, just starting from D instead of C.

Phrygian mode of C major....

I)   E min7
II)  F maj7
III) G7
IV)  A min7
V)   B min7♭5
VI)  C maj7
VII) D min7

Same chords as always, just starting from E this time.

Ionian is just how you normally think of a major scale - in this case, the C major scale. Doe ray me fah so la tee (doe).

Aeolian is how you think of a minor scale, but in this case, the minor scale you think of is the A minor scale (natural minor, as opposed to harmonic minor), even though we're still in C major. Try it; La tee doe ray me fah so (la).

To understand what Dorian mode sounds like, think sea shanty; What Shall We Do With The Drunken Sailor, Polly On The Shore. Ray me fah so la tee doe (ray).

Most of the other modes sound a little strange to ears accustomed to these three. I understand that they are used in some nations' folk music.

The same principle applies, of course, to all other keys.

I'm tired, and as I believe I have mentioned, my brain hurts. More so now. There may be errors above.

[RoboPlankton]

A useful way to look at modes (which many guitarists never need to use) is that, for example, the difference between D Dorian and D natural minor is in just one note. D natural minor has a flatted sixth, and D Dorian doesn't:

D nat minor = D E F G A Bb C D (the notes of F major scale)

D Dorian = D E F G A B C D (the notes of C major scale)

We can therefore perceive D Dorian as being a bit of a brighter minor sound than that of D natural minor. So if you want a minorish sound but not too sad/brooding/etc, you can opt for D Dorian.

And so on.....

...until brains start to hurt.....


And one MUST remember that, for example, the D Dorian mode MUST be played over a minor chord to get the desired effect. If played over a C major chord, then it would be very hard to get a minor sound from it .

[Fex]

Originally Posted by RoboPlankton

And one MUST remember that, for example, the D Dorian mode MUST be played over a minor chord to get the desired effect. If played over a C major chord, then it would be very hard to get a minor sound from it .

Melodies tend to be played over more than one chord.... Dorian chord sequences can certainly include major chords.

A minor
What shall we do with the drunken sailor?
G Major
What shall we do with the drunken sailor?
A minor
What shall we do with the drunken sailor?
G major
Ear-lye in the
A minor
mornin'?

[RoboPlankton]

Originally Posted by Fex

Melodies tend to be played over more than one chord.... Dorian chord sequences can certainly include major chords.

A minor
What shall we do with the drunken sailor?
G Major
What shall we do with the drunken sailor?
A minor
What shall we do with the drunken sailor?
G major
Ear-lye in the
Am
mornin'?

But the Dorian mode wouldn't sound minor over a major chord, as I understand it both theoretically and sonically.

What is a Dorian chord sequence, Dorian not being a key of any kind?

[RoboPlankton]

From Alan W Pollack's notes on Eleanor Rigby by The Beatles (http://www.icce.rug.nl/~soundscapes/...S/AWP/er.shtml):


Melody and Harmony

The melody here is in the Dorian mode; that's the one with the minor third but Major sixth and seventh, and it's a relatively uncommon choice for the Beatles, over the long run.

The harmonic resources are quite spare, with a very small number of chords actually used, and those that are used make for relatively weak and modally "plagal" establishment of the home key. Aside from the large drone-like air play given to the e-minor i chord, we have no more than VI (C) and iv (a); the Major IV chord (a nice modal touch in context of a minor key) is implied as a passing chord over the e drone.


Re the line above in bold:

How long has the Dorian mode had a major seventh?


It's no wonder people get confused .

[karbomusic]

And one MUST remember that, for example, the D Dorian mode MUST be played over a minor chord to get the desired effect.

I agree if you want a classic Dorian sound but since the desired effect varies greatly... I'd play it over D7 any day of the week. Did it tonight at rehearsal sounded great. Playing Dorian over the dominant 7 or just the major is a classic blues technique aka blurring the line between major and minor.

A good idea is learn what the modes are and how to find all the others from any single one, then employ them in whichever fashion makes the needed statement which is very powerful. Nothing wrong with playing A Lydian over an A Major key if you know when and where to do it. I learned the modes by writing them on the ceiling in my rehearsal room (20 years ago), then learned how to harmonize (decode) all the chords from any scale. Best thing I ever did.

[karbomusic]

Originally Posted by RoboPlankton

But the Dorian mode wouldn't sound minor over a major chord, as I understand it both theoretically and sonically.

What is a Dorian chord sequence, Dorian not being a key of any kind?

Modes come alive once one branches beyond playing them strictly from within where they make sense on paper. As I mentioned before, knowing when/where/how is the key. Otherwise, modes are just a way to remember all the same notes in different positions which gets boring really quickly.

[Fex]

Originally Posted by RoboPlankton

But the Dorian mode wouldn't sound minor over a major chord, as I understand it both theoretically and sonically.

By that argument, the Ionian mode wouldn't sound major over a minor chord, so you wouldn't play A minor as the VI if you were playing in C major Ionian. Which, of course, you would.

Originally Posted by RoboPlankton

What is a Dorian chord sequence, Dorian not being a key of any kind?

I meant the chord sequence of a song in the Dorian mode. Gah.

Originally Posted by RoboPlankton

How long has the Dorian mode had a major seventh?

If you play the note sequence D, E, F, G, A, B, C, D, it's quite clear that the seventh (C) is minor. Bollock is clearly talking a load of Pollacks. No, wait....

[Jae.Thomas]

for a real trip, check out the modes in harmonic minor

[Jae.Thomas]

Originally Posted by alanofoz

D minor is not Dorian!

D minor (natural minor) D E F G A Bb C D (same key sig as F major)
D Dorian D E F G A B C D (same key sig as C major)

well, I would call Dorian minor due to its minor third.... but I wouldn't specifically refer to it as "D minor" obviously.

[ivansc]

I have never had anyone ask me to play a mode.

FFS make some music, guys!

[alanofoz]

Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill

well, I would call Dorian minor due to its minor third.... but I wouldn't specifically refer to it as "D minor" obviously.

Agreed - for a slightly different spin on what I was saying.

I'm a leg spinner meself (for those who have the slightest clue what that means...)

[RoboPlankton]

Originally Posted by Fex

If you play the note sequence D, E, F, G, A, B, C, D, it's quite clear that the seventh (C) is minor. Bollock is clearly talking a load of Pollacks. No, wait....

He was right, but I wanted to demonstrate how easy it is to say or write something which confuses rather than enlightens.

He meant, I'm sure, that the Dorian mode contains the major sixth and the seventh, the seventh being the C in the case of D Dorian. But he wrote only 'seventh' after 'the major sixth', and as we read this we connect the word 'major' also with 'seventh'.

The word 'the', or absence of it, makes all the difference here.

Edit:

I thinks it's strange why he mentioned the seventh (surely a better term would have been 'the flatted seventh') at all in his notes. The natural minor has the same note, the Dorian mode differing only in the raising of the sixth.

But, of course, it's quite easy to lapse on total accuracy, especially when one writes a lot, as I know from personal experience.

[RoboPlankton]

Originally Posted by ivansc

I have never had anyone ask me to play a mode.

FFS make some music, guys!

Sound advice !

[Fex]

Originally Posted by ivansc

FFS make some music, guys!

Too much like hard work....

Originally Posted by RoboPlankton

He meant, I'm sure, that the Dorian mode contains the major sixth and the seventh, the seventh being the C in the case of D Dorian. But he wrote only 'seventh' after 'the major sixth', and as we read this we connect the word 'major' also with 'seventh'.

The word 'the', or absence of it, makes all the difference here.

I guess you're right.... it seems strange that he should mention the seventh at all though. If Dorian is "the one with the minor third but Major sixth and [the] seventh", it begs the question.... which is the one (or which are the ones) with no seventh?

[jerome_oneil]

Originally Posted by for

can you tell me the notes in "D minor Dorian scale" ?

They are X, Z.5, .003Q, and D.

There is no such thing as a "D minor dorian scale."

[Jae.Thomas]

just use the C Major scale but start from D.

let's not nit pick over semantics.

We could further clarify that Dorian is a mode of the major scale. But, it's a scale on its own.... for all intents and purposes.

It would be more accurately described as the "Dorian Mode" sure, but it is a minor scale with a raised sixth as well

C major scale
CDEFGAB
D Dorian "scale":
DEFGABC

[Jae.Thomas]

Originally Posted by ivansc

I have never had anyone ask me to play a mode.

FFS make some music, guys!

it's fun to try and get some theory knowledge, but obsessing over terminology and such can be extremely distracting from ACTUALLY using said techniques/knowledge and making music/improvising

[stevewisnoski]

Originally Posted by for

can you tell me the notes in "D minor Dorian scale" ?

Hi, simply, Dorian is a minor mode, and can be used in performance as a "vehicle of improvisation".
Or used in composition when a minor harmony is utilized.
easy...if you see a minor harmony, think down a whole tone, and play a major scale !
by doing so, you will be playing the b3 and b7, the essence of Dorian.
ex.- Am, play G major, that will flat the 3rd and 7th.
a simplification of what else is posted above.

[karbomusic]

Don't forget that when the third is omitted which very often is or can be, you can use most any of these of these and dictate the tonality of choice based on the scale/mode you choose. Again, right place right time but they should be empowering, not restricting.

[RoboPlankton]

Good thread this is.

Hands up those who spent an oddly long time figuring out the modes. I did, despite lots of reading online. It's so simple once it clicks............

This thread is showing the wide range of takes that people have on this subject. Karbo's Dorian over a D7 is something new to me, so I'll be giving it a go soon.

There are no rules, we seem to agree. There is info on what the modes are - a series of notes based on each degree of a major scale. Some are inherently major in character, others are minor. What players do with them musically is the important thing, of course.

Rather than spend time getting (possibly) confused trying to make sense of the theory, dive straight into the effect. There are plenty of vamps online, these being a piece of music played for a long time using just one chord. Let's consider a vamp in E minor, of someone playing a harmonic accompaniment on keys, with that single chord.

E minor is the relative (natural) minor of G major, and its scale therefore shares the same notes with G major but starting on E. This makes it the Aeolian mode in the key of G major:

E F# G A B C D E

So diddle around with a simple improvisation/lick using this scale over the Em vamp, making sure you use the F# frequently.

Then, with this sound/flavour/character in your head, flat the second note, the F#, to F, and now use the F frequently in your playing.

The difference should be stark, totally obvious. You are now playing not E Aeolian, but E Phrygian. This is the third mode of C major, here played over an Em vamp. E Phrygian has four flats - the 2nd, 3rd, 6th and 7th. The Aeolian mode has three flats - 3rd, 6th and 7th. Dorian has just two flats - the 3rd and 7th.

You might need to know that when we say "this mode has three flats", we mean in comparison to its parent major scale.

If you choose E Phrygian but never play the second note, the F, then you won't get the Phrygian sound. The usual muso jargon is "to lean on the second degree", which simply means to make sure you play it often enough to generate the sound/feeling/character of the Phrygian mode. Otherwise it will sound the same as E natural minor.


I'll stop here........if I keep going...........I'm bound to make a hash of it somewhere .


Next, please..........

[karbomusic]

Rather than spend time getting (possibly) confused trying to make sense of the theory, dive straight into the effect. There are plenty of vamps online, these being a piece of music played for a long time using just one chord. Let's consider a vamp in E minor, of someone playing a harmonic accompaniment on keys, with that single chord.

....

Next, please..........

I think it would be great if we all started creating or linking to existing examples of various ways to massage these. Even more emphasis on creating quick and simple examples in order to remove all the extra fluff. Doesn't have to be fantastical playing and simplicity is a must, just short 2-8 bar examples along with how someone can do it themselves (It's not like we don't all have a DAW sitting beside us. ). Preferably the chord and the melody etc. No need for drums or other instruments.

Might create some great light bulb moments for everyone. I'll do the Dorian / D7 thing when I get home tonight time permitting.

[RoboPlankton]

Back....sorry....desperately trying to stop.....

Re "leaning on the second degree" in E Phrygian, for example, lean on the root E also, to establish it as the tonic.

[RoboPlankton]

Originally Posted by karbomusic

I think it would be great if we all started creating or linking to existing examples of various ways to massage these. Even more emphasis on creating quick and simple examples in order to remove all the extra fluff. Doesn't have to be fantastical playing and simplicity is a must, just short 2-8 bar examples along with how someone can do it themselves (It's not like we don't all have a DAW sitting beside us. ). Preferably the chord and the melody etc. No need for drums or other instruments.

Might create some great light bulb moments for everyone. I'll do the Dorian / D7 thing when I get home tonight time permitting.

I nominate this as the World's Best Ever Post in an Online Modes Thread!

[Fex]

Originally Posted by RoboPlankton

I nominate this as the World's Best Ever Post in an Online Modes Thread!

Nope. It's a great idea, but #33 is a better post.

[Garrick]

I nominate posts 18,29, 31,33 and this one.

This thread is really really good, I'm hanging off every word.

Cheers

[ivansc]

Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill

it's fun to try and get some theory knowledge, but obsessing over terminology and such can be extremely distracting from ACTUALLY using said techniques/knowledge and making music/improvising

Zackly.

Threads like this pretty much always come over to me as being a pseudo-intellectual way of avoiding having to actually put any of the theory into practice.

I have nightmares about horrendous "songs" assembled from nuggets embedded in this and similar threads.


Moon June Spoon.....

[Viente]

Very simple!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPrbcHOSPgk