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Old 01-08-2015, 07:19 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by gpunk_w View Post
That doesn't change the fact that this is the weakest ever first pre of a major update for Reaper.
I was very disappointed by the first pre-release of R4, but once development was well under way, I was actually very impressed, so please be patient.
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Old 01-08-2015, 01:29 PM   #122
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Just to be clear, the philosophy is "for the designer to build something that he wants to use." I didn't say the philosophy was just to work on the parts we want to work on.

We do in fact want to use a well maintained, bug free product.
Well without sounding disrespectful, there really is no evidence of this at all, a lot, and i mean a lot of Reaper goes without maintenance, while new features that nobody asked for get implemented (this would be the "Stuff that we want" on the developer side i guess).
So you may want to retract or change this statement.

Not that any of this is not your right, it is your company, do what you like......hmmmm now i reread, i see that you have done the usual Cockos developer twisty turny text thing "We do in fact 'WANT' to use a well maintained, bug free product" actually does not say that you do or indeed intend to hahaha Touche
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Old 01-08-2015, 02:15 PM   #123
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I am puzzled by the v- thing, too. However they are also integrating more scripting possibilities into Reaper. I'm not a coder, but I can speculate that this might prepare the field for some future GUI rework shared with community. Why not let them work now? Anyway everyone has already made their whining at least twice I think ;-)
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Old 01-08-2015, 11:03 PM   #124
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Anyway everyone has already made their whining at least twice I think ;-)
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Old 01-10-2015, 03:38 AM   #125
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There is such a great principle, my wife also preaches back to me again and again and again:

"Never start a new construction site as long as there is an old ones!"

And I must admit :
Unfortunately, she has right. ^^
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Old 01-10-2015, 08:49 AM   #126
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I am puzzled by the v- thing, too.
I understand it. My way of understanding it may not be completely factual, but I do understand it. Here's how I see it, and we obviously don't personally know Justin so any reference to his motivations are a little guesswork + some things he's actually said.
1. He already has a successful product. One that according to him and Schwa is increasing in sales and whose adoption rate also seems to be increasing.

2. He doesn't need the money so he likely needs to find motivation elsewhere. Otherwise, in other cases, money is a great motivator.

3. He plays around with some video cams doing some music videos and thinks, "Man, it would be cool if I could do all of this in Reaper."

4. Of course... (no surprise there) "Shit, it's my product, I can do whatever I want with it."

5. So he goes about adding video editing to Reaper. It's something that actually interests him personally so he doesn't need to look for any motivation to build it. Even though the early UI kinda bites (imo), the actual functions are not bad at all.

6. Most of the other stuff - whether we like it or not - boils down to most people owning a $60 product that already does way more than $60 worth of stuff, and a not so small cross section of people probably who use it who never pay for it and actually never even have to. For many, it's a free gift.
That's my view anyway, right or wrong. That Reaper is not something he actually needs to work on to survive or eat or pay the bills and otherwise enjoy his life and he probably did it initially because it was something interesting and maybe fun and challenging to do for him and (perhaps) finding regular motivation to work on some stuff is maybe not quite as easy as simply thinking ... "Well, a guy who paid $60 three years ago and won't have to pay another $40 until two years from now is unhappy so I better get right on that."

He strikes me - from afar - as being that really bright kid in the class who needs to be regularly challenged or intrigued or he's not all that interested, if not plain bored, so he (apparently) mostly works on the stuff that intrigues or interests him personally.

If this was the corporate place we say we hate, he'd be working on whatever his bosses told him to work on. But we don't want that right?

Last edited by Lawrence; 01-10-2015 at 09:16 AM.
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Old 01-10-2015, 09:10 AM   #127
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So to simplify, you are saying hes bored and working on random stuff for fun.
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Old 01-10-2015, 09:25 AM   #128
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So to simplify, you are saying hes bored and working on random stuff for fun.
He apparently kinda was. Look at his blog when he first started fiddling with the video stuff a few months back.

If he wasn't kinda bored or personally intrigued by it, why would he (perceptually) not work on other stuff that some users say needs addressing (plenty of stuff to work on if you just need something to do) and start fiddling around with the video stuff in his spare time or whatever?

Some of us may not agree with that path, but that appears to be the case. We saw this coming a few months back when he talked about it on his blog... that he found it exciting and fun personally. From there we kinda knew it was coming to Reaper. To quote him directly from there... when he started doing that...

Quote:
I've been having a blast this week working on something that let me make this: (a video)
That was in October. I knew then that it would make it into Reaper at some point, no real surprise there.

Of course, he also maybe said something that could be interpreted now as being not the case, but things change and people are allowed to change their minds ...

Quote:
I'm going to keep working on this, it might get there someday. Former Vegas fans, fear not, REAPER isn't going to become a video editor.
So... for $60 every 4-5 years, a truly paltry sum, we kinda go with the flow and try to enjoy the ride. Nobody is going broke buying Reaper.

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Old 01-10-2015, 09:47 AM   #129
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So, to simplify, yes.
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Old 01-10-2015, 09:56 AM   #130
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Yes. Seems that way to me. Others may interpret all that differently of course. My impression is not automatically the only truth but yes, seems that way to me.

Anyway, I can get frustrated by it's path like anyone else but when I stop and think about what it cost me, it seems... not so important. I do think Cubase users who have spent $3k over the last 5-6 years make a better case for some gripes. The total $100 I spent on Reaper in the last 10 years is largely insignificant.
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Old 01-10-2015, 09:56 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
1. He already has a successful product. One that according to him and Schwa is increasing in sales and whose adoption rate also seems to be increasing.
true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
2. He doesn't need the money so he likely needs to find motivation elsewhere. Otherwise, in other cases, money is a great motivator.
true

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Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
6. Most of the other stuff - whether we like it or not - boils down to most people owning a $60 product that already does way more than $60 worth of stuff, and a not so small cross section of people probably who use it who never pay for it and actually never even have to. For many, it's a free gift.
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If this was the corporate place we say we hate, he'd be working on whatever his bosses told him to work on. But we don't want that right?
We'd want Cockos delivering what they officially say in their statements about their goals. If they'd say smth like "Reaper is a business model that aims to provide the best possible user experience, as long as the core team feels entertained enough" then no one here would have the right to talk. What we have instead is "the best possible user experience" with no additional terms. Then we also have "Our goal is to develop software sustainably while preventing profit rationale from forcing engineering compromises. By doing so, we can keep our product visions intact, giving maximum benefit to our users. " If read straight, that should mean caring for user interest and features that actually work. Or do I read this wrong?

I did notice your remark about getting more than what we pay for. That makes a good point. We get so much more that it's a challenge for us to differentiate between what works and what doesn't. I'd rather get less, but only working stuff. That's why I asked to deprecate broken features in that other thread...
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Old 01-10-2015, 10:00 AM   #132
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How can anybody say we get more than what we pay for, but then go on to say the devs will add what they want, its a contradiction.

We pay for what is in the app and whatever the devs want to add for the length of your licence, so it is actually impossible to get more than what you pay for
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Old 01-10-2015, 10:11 AM   #133
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I did notice your remark about getting more than what we pay for. That makes a good point.
Reaper is an enigma.

Look, I spent thousands on Cubase and (imo) got every pennies worth but let's be real, for $60 Reaper arguably gives you way more than $60 worth. That doesn't mean it's "ze best daw eva" and has no flaws, it only means that you'd have a hard time getting so much for so little anywhere else.

The main problem is that we (myself included if I'm perfectly honest ) at times want $600 worth of DAW for $60, and that's simply not gonna happen. We can pretend that's the case but it's not.

All the stuff you see in Cubase and Logic that you don't see in Reaper costs money (and time, same thing since time is money). Apple can only do the $199 thing with Logic because they're arguably the wealthiest software company on the planet. Logic is worth way, way more than that. That's actually lower than Reaper's professional license price.

Anyway, I complain as loud as anyone when I get the urge but let's adjust our expectations to more match reality.

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Old 01-10-2015, 10:20 AM   #134
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We'd want Cockos delivering what they officially say in their statements about their goals
And there lies the logical conflict.

Many users claim - regularly and loudly and boldly all across the net - that they do that better than anyone. Who's right about that? Not my place to say, make up your own mind.

Either (as the saying goes) it delivers features faster and fixes bugs faster and better than any other product (you can read that all over the net) and never markets anything that's not literally true or it doesn't. It can't be both things at the same time.

Make up your own mind about that like with everything else.

All I'm really saying is that for the $100 I spent on it in total, it's not really all that important to me, to rise to maybe ... anger. Mileage does vary. I did get angry with Steinberg though, about features, not stability, and I eventually just stopped buying it.

[/ Repetitive meta stuff]

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Old 01-10-2015, 10:26 AM   #135
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The point here is that while the price of admission for Reaper is low and that's great, when the time comes to renew or I need to upgrade the license as my income from working with it goes above the license threshold, I would re-consider my options and not auto-renew what I have because it full-fills my needs and wants in a DAW.

Currently I have the impression that the Reaper team is not too concerned with maintaining their user base and working towards making the product and its current feature-set better for them, but more towards making Reaper into what they deem to be suitable and interesting feature-wise.

Both visions are fine as far as they are free to choose either. The first will maintain and grow their current user base, the second will depend more on those who agree with their vision, those who choose to 'stick around' or those that hop on board as Reaper offers them what they are looking for at that time.

So, I say what I say not to tell the Reaper team what to do, but to let them know there is features and ideas am looking for in the DAW _I_ choose to pay for and use.
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Old 01-10-2015, 10:41 AM   #136
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Currently I have the impression that the Reaper team is not too concerned with maintaining their user base and working towards making the product and its current feature-set better for them, but more towards making Reaper into what they deem to be suitable and interesting feature-wise.
That might be true.

Again, my comments aren't so much about truth as they are about perspective. I was trying to convey my personal perspective, that's all.

My perspective is that I (like we humans do) get annoyed by stuff and see stuff I think is just wrong and try to get people to change it and after 2-3-4-5 years I eventually realize what I can affect and what I cannot and kinda don't get upset about that stuff anymore.

If I had my way Reaper would be kind of a completely different product, bringing the best of what I like and leaving behind the stuff I don't like. Unfortunately, I don't get my way so... I try not to stroke out over it too often.

If I stop buying it they won't miss a beat. There's 1000 people behind me who still will so... my personal feelings about that won't really affect their future.

So I try to take a lot of it in stride... that's all I'm saying.

I actually hate the FX window, completely despise it, wish they would completely redesign it, but I don't get to make that call so the microsecond of "ugh!" I feel whenever I open it is just a minor annoyance. If I'd paid $400 for Reaper I'd expect a much better design... but I didn't so... no biggie. Same with the FX browser, it's obviously not all that great but I also didn't pay a fortune for it.
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Old 01-10-2015, 10:48 AM   #137
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If I stop buying it they won't miss a beat. There's 1000 people behind me who still will so... my personal feelings about that won't really affect their future.
While I doubt it's a 1000 the point is a valid one obviously.. But this point is besides he point really
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Old 01-10-2015, 11:01 AM   #138
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While I doubt it's a 1000 the point is a valid one obviously.. But this point is besides he point really
It's beside your point yes, but not mine. My point was only one of perspective. That's my perspective, that my wishes don't rise to the level of being so important that it would affect their business.

I might be wrong about that, don't claim to be all knowing, but that's where I currently am. Nothing to debate there really, it's just where I am, perspective wise.
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Old 01-10-2015, 11:03 AM   #139
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The main problem is that we (myself included if I'm perfectly honest ) at times want $600 worth of DAW for $60, and that's simply not gonna happen. We can pretend that's the case but it's not.
Well, that's been already discussed:
http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...9&postcount=18

In short, you sure will agree that there is some minor difference between quantity and quality. My point is not about the former, it's about the latter. Give me much less than Cubase for $60, but give it properly designed, implemented and maintained. Is this too much to ask?
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Old 01-10-2015, 11:09 AM   #140
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Also something that gets lost in this $$ chat is that Reaper is not complete without community extensions. They provide the APIs and support scripting languages, community makes up for workflow holes in implementation. So it's not exclusively Cockos writing the code, it's Cockos+community. I think community has some right to expect Cockos listening to it. While I haven't written or contributed a single line of code, I think I am expressing something experienced by those who do. Maybe I'm not in full right to talk for them, though. However the concept of traditional business exchange of goods for money does not apply here IMHO.

Edit: community also takes active part in QA, and there I have contributed some, and most of you have. In the more traditional business model (like Steinberg), QA costs money, and is a significant expense to any manufacturer.

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Old 01-10-2015, 11:17 AM   #141
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Also something that gets lost in this $$ chat is that Reaper is not complete without community extensions. They provide the APIs and support scripting languages,
Valid point here. Simple example would be supporting FX/send slots in TCP like they have in MCP. Code is there, it's 'just' a matter of allowing the same in TCP and several Theme designers will do the rest. I know it may be a minor thing for a lot of people but it would certainly make a reasonable group happy and takes little or no effort.
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Old 01-10-2015, 11:30 AM   #142
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Yes but then this ......
It's a simple thing really, just turning items in to automation items, they have envelopes on items already, we can already route some automation around the app using param modulation, so the code is already there, blah blah and so on and so forth.

It is easy for you to pick any one single feature and say, this is simple to add and blah x 1000, but reality is that there are 1000s of users with 1000s of these requests, and another reality is that more people (On the forum at least) wanted waht i said over what you said, does that make what i said (Automation items) any more valid a request to the developers than what you said (TCP FX slots) of course it doesn't.
The reality still lies in the developers implementing what they want when they want, Pre5 has just dropped with VCA grouping, i doubt Justin wanted to code it, even though the code was mostly there, but it was probably a "Yeah i will just knock that out quickly"
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Old 01-10-2015, 12:54 PM   #143
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Simple example would be supporting FX/send slots in TCP like they have in MCP.
For my point of view TCP is TCP and MCP is MCP. Why we need the same things here and there? We need some more useful things.
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Old 01-10-2015, 02:08 PM   #144
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For my point of view TCP is TCP and MCP is MCP. Why we need the same things here and there? We need some more useful things.
Try the workflow in Pro Tools or even DAWs with a track inspector like Logic and Studio One. You don't need the mixer at all when you can just increase the scale of tracks to reveal all their sends and effects. They disappear at regular size so they are neat and tucked out of the way. Its a great way to work that is compact and efficient, but more intuitive than a separate FX window which is better for more in depth editing such as routing and parameter control.

The mixer is great when you're done putting effects and editing in the arrange, and want to switch to a levels-only view to get to fine tuning your balance. To me they have always been separate workflows.
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Old 01-10-2015, 02:44 PM   #145
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As far as I can tell there is simply no better way to do that in arrange than what PT does, and see all that stuff across all tracks at the same time. Inspectors are really great imo, but this is even better (for plugins and sends anyway). Of course, Inspectors also have media info and editing and stuff which that doesn't have though.

I'm certain that Cubase actually did this first in their early midi sequencers, used optional columns to bring more info to the arrange tracks, and I have no idea why they moved away from it. I think DP also does that.



Anything not better than that is kinda re-inventing a wheel that's not as good as that wheel.

Steiny has a bad habit of abandoning good designs for the new shiny. Believe it or not, Cubase audio tracks actually used to directly switch mono / stereo, but they don't anymore.

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Old 01-10-2015, 05:18 PM   #146
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As far as I can tell there is simply no better way to do that in arrange than what PT does, and see all that stuff across all tracks at the same time. Inspectors are really great imo, but this is even better (for plugins and sends anyway). Of course, Inspectors also have media info and editing and stuff which that doesn't have though.
Also I like the pop up/out volume fader PT has there. It's not a 'must have' I'll agree. But it would certainly fit my preferred workflow much better. The possibility to slot in a VST at a specific insert point is also really nice..
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