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Old 03-26-2015, 07:37 PM   #1
mikeypee
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Default Monitoring for natural, relaxed VOX+Acoustic

How do you guys prefer to monitor, when you're capturing a singer who is also playing guitar at the same time?

I've tried various configurations. I've tried fully closed headphones, with VOX+Acoustic mixed in. I've tried that plus the vox much louder. I always tend to sing too loud, or harsh, and can't fight the tendency it seems. I've also tried only wearing one headphone ear, and that does help a tad.. but not enough.

When I'm playing normally, without recording, I feel like my voice has a much more relaxed quality that I just haven't been able to match using headphones yet. Maybe it's because the condenser microphone is simply showing me what I actually sound like, though.

I was wondering if next time I record, I could try wearing only one headphone ear, and only placing a metronome inside it to keep time, but adding zero (or near zero) monitoring of my vocals or guitar.

If it matters, I'm using MXL mics... one of them is the 770 (black general), and another is the 57 or whatever one is the V67G (under-hundy gold large capsule). Pre-amps are just the Scarlett 2i2. Headphones are the Audio-Technica ATH-M50. I have an SM57 available too, and I don't feel like I have the same type of problem, or at least not quite as much.
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Old 03-26-2015, 08:07 PM   #2
Unikorn
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If all you need is a metronome, then check out the Peterson Body Beat pulsating metronome rather than an audible source that may be distracting and introduce unwanted noise.
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Old 03-26-2015, 09:30 PM   #3
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Or make it totally relaxed, and just play completely free of a metronome entirely. I record a lot of just my acoustic and vocal at the same time. Once I get things balanced, the headphones come off and I'm just sitting in the room playing and singing. Try it without a metronome and truly capture the feel of the moment. I would bet your timing isn't so bad that it's gonna be a show-stopper. And there's also nothing wrong that I can see (or hear) with a little foot-tapping being audible, either.
It's just my opinion, but I think the vision of this type of recording is to capture the mood and the feel of being in the room with a guy who's playing and singing. I tried all kinds of mic placement, figure-8, overdubbing, you name it. In the end, nothing sounds more natural and pure to me than setting up one mic, fiddling around a bit to get a good balance between the guitar and the vocals, and just letting it happen as it happens.
If you're performing these songs live, you're not likely to have a metronome in your ear, so just let your hair down and go for it!
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Old 03-26-2015, 11:42 PM   #4
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I went quite awhile doing the natural feel thing, and I just suck at keeping time. I'm probably a lot better, now that I've been recording to a metronome for awhile... but man.. it used to be so bad.

Now just the thought of free-ballin' it makes me cringe. I don't think I'm quite there yet... too much tempo warping.
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Old 03-27-2015, 12:04 AM   #5
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I always felt that my acoustic stuff sounded stale and kinda lifeless when I played to a metronome. We're all different, but I found myself concentrating so hard on that damn metronome that it made everything else suffer somewhat.
I play a lot of solo acoustic gigs, so my timing is getting better all the time. I never record solo stuff with a metronome anymore. I like free-ballin! Lol
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Old 03-27-2015, 12:12 AM   #6
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Hah I actually do a solo acoustic gig about once a month, never to a metronome... but sometimes I wish I had that setup.

Back around 2 years ago I was so much worse than I am now. All that needed to happen was I got excited about the upcoming chorus, and the BPM of the song would go through the roof. It was awful.
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Old 03-27-2015, 12:19 AM   #7
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These days all you need is your phone in your pocket, a metronome app, and a single ear bud. Very inconspicuous, and very simple. Have you tried that?
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Old 03-27-2015, 01:59 AM   #8
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Nah, ear buds always hurt my ears if they're in too long, and end up falling out anyway.
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Old 03-27-2015, 02:34 AM   #9
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I still find it odd that we all became tempo obsessed about the time MIDI and computers became prevalent.

There isnt anything in The Rules that says a piece of music cannot have ebb and flow in tempo.
It is far more about The Groove.
If you listen to some of the classic early pop stuff, it DOES breathe tempo-wise and is all the better for it.
Just so long as everyone speeds up or slows down at the same time and by the same amount!

Why they have conductors in orchestral stuff, I suppose.....
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Old 03-27-2015, 08:19 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc View Post
I still find it odd that we all became tempo obsessed about the time MIDI and computers became prevalent.

There isnt anything in The Rules that says a piece of music cannot have ebb and flow in tempo.
It is far more about The Groove.
If you listen to some of the classic early pop stuff, it DOES breathe tempo-wise and is all the better for it.
Just so long as everyone speeds up or slows down at the same time and by the same amount!

Why they have conductors in orchestral stuff, I suppose.....
That's kind of where I was heading with all my replies. I agree 100%, and I prefer the slight variations in tempo as opposed to the rigid, robotic strictness of playing with a metronome.
When we discuss 'feel' in a musical context, I believe we're talking about more than just expression and dynamics. Louder and softer is perfectly acceptable, but some don't think that tempo figures into the equation. Every opinion is valid, of course, and the whole thing is subjective.
To me, it feels natural that the chorus for example might evoke a bit more emotion, therefore causing a ~slight~ tempo increase of a tick or two. I guess it comes down to where each individual draws the line between feel, emotion, and just plain old bad timing.
Concerning the ear buds, if I was in the OP's shoes and really felt that I'd benefit from a metronome, I'd look at a bunch of different models until I found one that wasn't a pain to wear and stayed put. There are a lot of designs these days, and some even come with different sized cups to slip over the buds.
Or a visual metronome as suggested earlier. I always found it easier to follow an audible click than a visual. Setting it to flash on quarter notes as opposed to 8ths seemed to make it a bit better for me. But I'm rambling now. Lol. I hope you find a solution.
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Old 03-27-2015, 08:28 AM   #11
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You stated earlier that you feel that your live performances have more vibe and feeling. I'd suggest just rolling tape in your studio and capturing it like a live setting until you feel like you've captured the magic. Just do this as an exercise. Now you will have a clean recording of how you think you sound live. Have a critical listen to this. Compare it to your recordings with cans on and click track in your ear. Is there a big difference?

Exercises like these can show a lot about performances. It will let you hear yourslef how other people hear you. It can be very revealing. You can then begin to teach yourself to repeat that magic feel.
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Old 03-27-2015, 08:48 AM   #12
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^^^^ That's some pretty sound advice right there.
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Old 03-27-2015, 11:29 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeypee View Post
How do you guys prefer to monitor, when you're capturing a singer who is also playing guitar at the same time?

I've tried various configurations. I've tried fully closed headphones, with VOX+Acoustic mixed in. I've tried that plus the vox much louder. I always tend to sing too loud, or harsh, and can't fight the tendency it seems. I've also tried only wearing one headphone ear, and that does help a tad.. but not enough.

When I'm playing normally, without recording, I feel like my voice has a much more relaxed quality that I just haven't been able to match using headphones yet. Maybe it's because the condenser microphone is simply showing me what I actually sound like, though.

I was wondering if next time I record, I could try wearing only one headphone ear, and only placing a metronome inside it to keep time, but adding zero (or near zero) monitoring of my vocals or guitar.

If it matters, I'm using MXL mics... one of them is the 770 (black general), and another is the 57 or whatever one is the V67G (under-hundy gold large capsule). Pre-amps are just the Scarlett 2i2. Headphones are the Audio-Technica ATH-M50. I have an SM57 available too, and I don't feel like I have the same type of problem, or at least not quite as much.
What are you monitoring while you record the acoustic + voice?

Just a click track? And you're using that because other people are going to be overdubbing and there's just no time for anyone to have to do 3 or 4 takes as they learn any subtle timing changes from any tempo variation?

The challenge is to not end up with a stiff mechanical sounding performance because of following the click. That's the issue right?

If the click is not being demanded by someone else...

An option to try might be to record a few takes and edit together for the best and most consistent tempo parts. Slip edits like this take seconds vs. trying to edit up a stiff take into something natural sounding (which can take hours).

If the click business is mandatory for the coming overdubs...

Still do a few takes. Don't be afraid to pause and start over as needed if you lose the performance. Editing bits back together like that again only takes seconds.

Record any quiet parts and especially any end of song chord ringing out parts without the click to avoid the headphone bleed (from that click screaming in your ears) and edit those in.


Basically don't struggle with the tools. Make them work for you and don't be afraid to edit. You can still end up with a natural sounding performance that also conforms to a click. It's just a bit more work.

There's also nothing that hard about overdubbing to slight tempo variations. As long as it's musical and sounds "right". After all, tempo variations are intentional sometimes. There are even terms to describe these kind of "feel" things in notation. But if someone is going all 'corporate' on you and demanding a click track...


Just finished recording quatro + voice that is apparently going to visit studios around the world for various overdubs and a click was demanded. The trickiest song had 3 different tempos. I had him just play it live. (Clicked the tap tempo button and took notes during.) Then lay down the different sections to the click. Then edited the parts together (took under 3 min) and used the transitions and ending from the 'live' take. All happiness and light.


It IS more work no question. But it's possible to still get a 'real' recording using a click.

You can also do stuff like make a "beat" of your own to use instead of metronome 1/8 notes.
Drummers that want to play to a click always bring along their drum machine for a click or program their own 'beat' for a click and toss me the file. I'm apparently expected to be a 'beat maker' for everyone else though when it comes up.

Last edited by serr; 03-27-2015 at 11:41 AM.
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Old 03-27-2015, 06:12 PM   #14
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Yeah I think you guys are right - a more natural tempo does sound better, if done right. I'm just still dealing with 2 major problems:

1. My "natural" tempo still sucks so bad. I started recording my gigs a few years ago, and when I finally saw myself played back I was like "HOLY NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!". Trust me ... did not sound good. Sounded just ... just awful. While I do believe my tempo is probably a lot better now (at least it was around 6 months ago when I stopped recording gigs), it's still not good "enough", I don't think. I could still hear the tempo changes quite noticeably and didn't really like it.

2. For these specific recording sessions, I'm actually stitching together 3-4 live runthroughs of the songs, and it's really really hard to do that when I use my natural tempo. So far the only way I've been able to do it is when I'm playing to a metronome. Otherwise the edits sound very out of place.

Good tip about experimenting with different models of earbuds... I didn't think about that. I wonder if amazon has some sort of earbud with a pack of wide varied molds that fit over it.

You know, the funny thing is I actually wrote a "highly visual metronome" for this very reason. It's available on google play right now, too. The problem with that, is I chose to use Sin() to guide it's motion, instead of flat division, so when the bar moves left/right it's hard to get the timing of the beats! Also, I'm much too lazy to go fix it right now, lol.

Maybe I'm conflating two issues. Issue 1 would be precise tempo so I can stitch together multiple song runthroughs. Issue 2 would be my natural tempo during live performances. For the latter, I guess I still need to practice more.

For Serr (thanks for the lengthy thoughtful reply):

The latest incarnation, I had a can on my right ear, left ear open air, metronome panned hard into the ear-can, and a mix of VOX+Guitar. Maybe it was all just too loud... I mean did I *really* need to add the guitar into the can? The thing was already right in front of me lol.

I wasn't using a click track - just a super simple VSTi giving me a sub-bassish kick, a snare, and a hi hat. Very basic beat; One step above a metronome, and volume pretty low compared to VOX+Guitar. I'm using it because I need to stitch multiple takes together, and I confess to make it easier to add a little backtrack behind me (just strings and stuff later).

OH shoot... sorry if I was unclear. When I said "relaxed", I meant the tone / tension / texture of my voice, not tempo.

Wow @ editing a live guy onto a click track. That's crazy. Did you use stretch markers for that? How much did his tempo go off of what was needed at worst?

For everyone else too: This brings up a question for me. Thus far I haven't been using stretch markers because I also need the track to sync up to a video of the actual take (not lip synced). I had assumed Reaper wouldn't look very natural or at all, if I tried to use stretch markers on an actual file track. Has anyone actually tried this though?

Maybe I'm still just hypersensitive to my own tempo changes, because I can always remember the moments during recording when my tempo started to take a poop... but obviously that isn't present when listening to other peoples' recordings.
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Old 03-28-2015, 12:12 AM   #15
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I find playing to a metronome very awkward, for some reason its just feels unatural and the performance always ends up sounding stiff and lacks feel.

So i program a simple one bar drum loop that works for the feel of the song and record to that, works for me but ymmv.

For headphone monitoring i always set the levels in the h/p's so as it sounds as close as possible to what i hear accoustically, i know it will never be the same but if the levels are right in will be a lot easier to get a good take.

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Old 03-28-2015, 01:21 AM   #16
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Quote:
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I find playing to a metronome very arkward ... So i program a simple one bar drum loop that works for the feel of the song and record to that...
I found "Band in a Box" is the perfect tool for this issue. just real (!) Drums if you are not using predefined harmonies, real (in many styles, otherwise sampled) Bass and/or Piano, Guitar, ...

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