Questions about mixing/mastering in reaper and mixing in general

[xethicx]

I like to think I have a pretty good ear for mixing and that isn't really my issue. My issue is when it comes to the process given that I am somewhat inexperienced. I'll note my process and you guys tell me how I could end up with a better sounding mix. Where am I going wrong? For the record I am doing death metal, punk and hard rock using only plugins, no live drums and no real amps.

1. Get all the levels right

2. Trim out noise and other edits

3. Add ozone to the master bus and set to "gentle tube"

4. Raise the levels as much as possible without clipping

5. Render into MP3

[DVDdoug]

1. Get all the levels right

2. Trim out noise and other edits

It's fairly common to use EQ, compression, and reverb on the individual tracks, as well as on the master bus during mixing. Some of that can be "for effect", and some of it can be "corrective".

It's all optional, and if you've got a good recording and/or good virtual instruments, you might not need any effects/processing. And... Don't do it just because someone tells you to... ONLY use effects if they improve the sound!!!!

3. Add ozone to the master bus and set to "gentle tube"

4. Raise the levels as much as possible without clipping

Those two things go hand-in-hand. If the gentle tube (and 0dB normalization) doesn't give you enough loudness, try some additional limiting and/or compression. Since you mention Ozone, the Izotope Mastering Guide should be helpful.

5. Render into MP3

I'd suggest also creating a lossless master.

[JamesPeters]

Step 1 should be something you do throughout the mix. It's an ongoing process, not just the first step. When you EQ, compress, or change levels any other way, you will be adjusting volumes.

Step 3 shouldn't be done while working on the mix (in my opinion) and only if your mix seems to "need it" at the end. Its effect is very strong in any preset I tried (although it's been years since I tried the plugin). And just because a preset is named "tube" doesn't mean you'll like the effect it has. It might be forcing the mix to be a certain way, stopping you from considering basics of mixing such as how to use compressors and EQs more effectively on tracks and buses.

Step 4...well, you don't want the output to be weak but you don't necessarily want the output volume raised as much as possible either.

My guess is that you're going to be re-thinking your use of compressors and EQs to get your mix where you want it, mostly.

[OPI]

Why not post a link to one of your tracks? Its harsh but i think everyone needs a good dose of criticism every now and then. Try it but of course everyone will have a different opinion.

[xethicx]

This is without the bass guitar and vocals.

https://soundcloud.com/stormsoundstudio

And another with bass in it..

https://soundcloud.com/stormsoundstudio

James, in regard to your first comment, I do that currently. I am ALWAYS tweaking as I record, add plugins and tracks etc.

I guess I was wondering about the use of ozone on the master bus since I was told that it's not good to put plugins on the master bus but where would one put a mastering plugin like ozone if not the master bus?

[JamesPeters]

My point is that you don't use a plugin of that sort while mixing. It colors the mix strongly and has a tendency to throw you off when it comes to working the mix.

Maybe after you have an idea what your "go-to" process is, having a plugin like that on the mix while you're working the mix can be fine. But until you know what you want and how to get it, don't run that plugin all the time while mixing. I see it as putting the cart before the horse. It's meant to be "the icing on the cake" and I get the impression you're more concerned about the cake if you're asking this kind of question here.

Do your bread-and-butter things on a track-by-track basis, and a bus-by-bus basis, then if you think you want Ozone on the mix, apply it (and sparingly). You'll find as you improve your mixing, you'll want to use Ozone less.

Both those links are to your main page, by the way.

Also: post a link to a song on youtube you're generally trying to sound like.

[xethicx]

BOW12 and BOW2 are the two most recent mixes. Not especially sure what to compare it to but here's an idea I guess.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5rRjBIOUIc

I should note that I ONLY use ozone to master and I add it after I have the mix I want. After I add ozone there's some light tweaking but nothing much.

[Icchan]

Soundcloud links don't work. Please edit them so we can hear those two. They seem to be private sounds anyway so you need the "secret link" when sharing and you have to get it using "share" functionality or else it'll send us to the main profile page and not to the sound you want.

[xethicx]

Ill figure it out.

[xethicx]

https://soundcloud.com/stormsoundstudio/bow2

[xethicx]

https://soundcloud.com/stormsoundstu...w12-for-lyrics

[JamesPeters]

The biggest difference I hear between what you're doing and what you want to accomplish: you're not recording two individually-played rhythm guitar track and then panning them hard left/right like they do. Your rhythm guitar is mostly (if not all) center, and I'm guessing it's a single track.

I say "individually-played" as an important distinction, too. If you try to imitate this by using a copy of the track and/or delay, it won't sound the same. Play 2 takes of the same rhythm part, as accurately as possible with the best timing you can manage. The slight differences will work in your favor, when you pan the tracks hard left/right.

Other than that I don't hear anything particularly bad about your mixes. If something stands out to you as lacking, work on that. For instance if you want the drums to sound "better" somehow, check out some info about mixing drums.

[xethicx]

I actually quad track my rhythm guitars and I use three separate tones.

Track one is tone 1 panned 30% left

Track two is tone 2 panned 30% left

Track three is tone 1 panned 30% right

Track four is tone 3 panned 30% right.

How should I be panning?

[JamesPeters]

Originally Posted by xethicx

I actually quad track my rhythm guitars and I use three separate tones.

Track one is tone 1 panned 30% left

Track two is tone 2 panned 30% left

Track three is tone 1 panned 30% right

Track four is tone 3 panned 30% right.

How should I be panning?

Open the Youtube video link you posted in a window/tab. In another window/tab, open one of your songs you linked to. Listen to the stereo field in both, back to back (quickly). Your guitar sounds mono. Try different panning and volume settings. There's no one number to shoot for, but if you want to sound like that song, you're missing that one big element.

If you're not actually playing each track as a different take (if any of them are copies, including "reamping"), it doesn't count. As for "quad tracking": 2 good takes is enough. They have to be good though. Quality over quantity.

[xethicx]

I played every track separately, that's how I have always done guitars recording wise. But panning is something I have never really explored outside of my 30/30 method. Where would be a good place to start as far as panning four tracks of rhythm?

[JamesPeters]

Originally Posted by xethicx

I played every track separately, that's how I have always done guitars recording wise. But panning is something I have never really explored outside of my 30/30 method. Where would be a good place to start as far as panning four tracks of rhythm?

Lol. How about HARD LEFT AND HARD RIGHT. Seriously, just try some different settings. Move the thingies around and listen. 100% R/L can sound odd and you might want a third track relatively center but lower in volume. Depends on what you're after.

Don't overthink this. Try stuff.

If you're looking for a "golden recipe", I'm not going to participate any further because there is no such thing.

I also recommend muting 2 of the 4 tracks. 2 will be enough. Pick the best 2. This whole "everything needs to be quad-tracked because so-and-so does it that way" thing...meh. If it works and improves your mix, great. But don't start there expecting that's necessary. I never do it.

[thequietroom]

not a bad mix, but i think the drums are too wide, and the guitars are too narrow.

metal rythm guitars almost always sound best panned hard right and left, and maybe bring the toms and cymbals a little in

drums are your call.. some people like the toms super wide.. sounds unnatural to me.

[thequietroom]

you might also try just 2 tracks. listen carefully and see if your really gaining anything with the quad tracks. sometimes it can sound good.. other times it can just sort of smear the articulation of guitar tracks.

I think the guitar tone is pretty good really..

[jonesg]

Originally Posted by xethicx

This is without the bass guitar and vocals.

https://soundcloud.com/stormsoundstudio

And another with bass in it..

https://soundcloud.com/stormsoundstudio

James, in regard to your first comment, I do that currently. I am ALWAYS tweaking as I record, add plugins and tracks etc.

I guess I was wondering about the use of ozone on the master bus since I was told that it's not good to put plugins on the master bus but where would one put a mastering plugin like ozone if not the master bus?

Honestly it sounds perfectly fine, get on with making music.

[xethicx]

Wow,, big difference. I monkeyed around with some drum stuff and then I panned the guitars 100,70,70,100 and boom the mix came alive and sounded a lot fatter with more feel. Check out the new BOW 12 and let me know what you think. I took off the old mix so you won't have a comparison but for mostly the guys that already checked it out what do you think now minus the lack of bass guitar.

https://soundcloud.com/stormsoundstu...w12-for-lyrics

[JamesPeters]

That brings it pretty close to the sort of production style a lot of heavier bands use. I like that kind of approach. The part at 2:43 sounds a lot cooler now as a result too.

As far as the rest of the mix, there's nothing I hear "wrong". You can choose to do things differently if you want though. I'd recommend listening carefully to one aspect of the mix at a time, compared to a track (such as that Youtube one) for reference. Differences will be easier to spot that way. (For instance: are the cymbals too loud or bright sounding, how does the kick sound, etc.)

I did notice on another track which had bass, that the bass didn't quite sound right. It was hard to tell why because it was indistinct in the mix, but I suspect it could have to do with a few possibilities:

1) perhaps it's not a bass guitar but a pitch-shifted guitar imitating one,
2) maybe the playing dynamics aren't controlled very well (playing bass is fairly different from playing electric guitar in that regard, since it can transition from soft to loud quite noticeably with changes in attack strength),
3) more compression or different compression settings could be used.

[xethicx]

The other songs on there are all rough mixes that I am just putting up so I can write some new lyrics from my laptop instead of playing it through my recording unit. Now that I have a better plan of attack I am gonna use it on the rest of the mixes after I am done additional leads and my vocals. I use a bass, albeit I am not a bass player, what song are you talking about with the bass stuff?

[JamesPeters]

Originally Posted by xethicx

The other songs on there are all rough mixes that I am just putting up so I can write some new lyrics from my laptop instead of playing it through my recording unit. Now that I have a better plan of attack I am gonna use it on the rest of the mixes after I am done additional leads and my vocals. I use a bass, albeit I am not a bass player, what song are you talking about with the bass stuff?

I don't recall. It's not worth worrying about if that's not how you intend the bass to sound once the mix is done though. Carry on as usual.

[xethicx]

I could use some tips for recording bass though. I am using a good sounding bass amp sim and then loading some good sounding impulses into lecab but from there I am kind of lost. I'll be honest and admit that I don't know how to use compression very well and I know that is a key with bass on albums. I used to kind of cheat and just use the bass rider but I got rid of all waves plugins so I should probably learn a few things about compression.

[DVDdoug]

Panning Article from Moulton Labs.

What I learned from that was that it's futile to carefully pan the sounds across the soundstage. Our ears aren't as good as we thing when it comes to locating the "phantom" image, and if we move our head a bit, or listen on a different setup, well hear a different location, and a different listener might get a different perception.

Then when I was reading reviews about Metallica's Death Magnetic album, people were saying it sounded over-compressed and it sounded like mono. That made me realize compression is going to tend to make the left & right channels more-equal, pushing everything that's not hard panned toward the center. So... if you carefully-precisely pan everything and then send your mix out for mastering (or if you master yourself) all of that careful panning can be destroyed.

The bottom line is, pan hard-right & hard-left (or nearly hard-pan) and, center. And, if you nearly hard-pan, maybe add a little delay in the channel you're panned-away from.