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Old 10-22-2014, 03:27 PM   #1
BanjoChris
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Default How to record "old timey" music?

Hi Everybody - I've been lurking around this forum for a while but I'm struggling with something so I thought I'd sign up and ask . .

I play clawhammer banjo and guitar, primarily in what some people call an "old timey" style . .ala Old Crow Medicine Show, Ola Belle Reed, some of Gillian Welch/David Rawlings, Norman Blake, etc. I'm definitely NOT looking for a Mumford and Sons type sound.

My guitar actually sounds pretty good to my ears on my recordings. It's the banjo that is the problem. It sounds too "polite". Too wimpy. There's not enough low end growl and way too much high-end sparkle. Not to mention it takes a zillion hours of manual volume editing to make the banjo loud enough and "up front" enough without clipping. And even then . .it's still too polite.

I don't have a lot of recording gear and I can't afford to experiment much. My "studio" consists of a Focusrite 2i2, a Shure sm81 and a Samson S1 and, of course Reaper.

I've had the best luck with the s1 on the banjo, so that's what I've been using. Placed about 8 inches away, pointed at the top half of the banjo body. I get some plunk and a little bit of the low end growl . .but, like I said above, waay to much sparkly high-end. I tried using eq to tame the highs but it makes it sound hollow and dull. So it's like . .I want the highs . .but I want the rest of the sound to match the intensity of the highs. I tried boosting the mids - but it just doesn't sound "real". What I want is for it to sound like it actually does when you hear it live.

How can I best record the banjo using what I've got? Would another type of microphone be more suitable? I could probably spend up to 500 on a mic if I had to. I would prefer to use what I've got, though, if I could get a little closer to what I'm looking for. If my current banjo sound is a C+, I could live with a B and be thrilled with a B+.

In anticipation of the question .. the dedicated room I've got to record in sounds horrible so I usually record tracks in my bedroom or the living room . .neither of which I can treat in any kind of permanent way.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts, advice or insights. I've learned a lot by reading this forum and look forward to learning even more and, maybe even someday play a recording for somebody without qualifying first that "I have a really minimal recording gear and expertise", lol.
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Old 10-22-2014, 04:02 PM   #2
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How can I best record the banjo using what I've got? Would another type of microphone be more suitable?
In my experience recording banjo, it comes down to the player, the instrument and the microphone.

I'd go with a darker dynamic microphone. Industry standards would be an EV RE20 or a Sennheiser MD421. They might be out of your budget, but I'm sure you could locate something else. I like the Audix D4, and you can probably find one used for a good price. I'm sure others will chime in.

You'll probably find some good mic suggestions by doing a Google search of gearslutz.com.
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Old 10-22-2014, 04:29 PM   #3
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Move around the room. Experiment. Facing a corner might improve the bottom end.

If the live sound is good to your ear, then you should certainly try a greater mic distance between the mic and the banjo. I mean, four times greater, for a start. If it sounds ok, try even further. Give the sound a chance to evolve in the room.

Of course it clips. It's a banjo. Clipping is its business. Give it a truckful of headroom at every stage.

Have somebody move the mic while you're playing. State the mic positions for the recording. Point at all likely parts of the banjo. Try some over-shoulder positions, too.

You have two mics, so use two mics. Blend to taste. Try both close, try both distant, try one close, one distant.

Obviously you should try to get the sound as close to what you want before EQ, but if taming the highs isn't working for you, try making a recording with too much low end (close mic pointed at bottom strings?) and use EQ to tame the lows.

There is indeed some food for thought at Gearslutz.... but I think you're going to get better results by experimentation with the mics and the rooms you have than by buying mics which will better capture a sound you don't want.

If all else fails, put it through a fuzzbox....
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Old 10-22-2014, 06:00 PM   #4
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@OP Please post something when you get it done, I love that music, I played drums in my Grandparents band [Bandoneon, Accordion, Drums, Vocals] if they were still around Id still be doing some of those gigs, a lot of fun and very musical.
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Old 10-22-2014, 06:38 PM   #5
BanjoChris
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Hi Morgon - I'm not sure we're talking about the exact same style of music but I'm more than happy to post the thing that lead me to asking this question. It's an intro for an internet fishing show. I took the advice of Yep - finished is better than perfect . .so this one is finished but I'm going to be doing more music for the show and I really want it to sound professional.

So on this magical piece of wonder I processed the crap out of everything. Compression, EQ, Limiting - in addition to my painstaking manual volume edits (everywhere the banjo clips, I add a volume automation to make it not clip . .and it clips a LOT). I probably worked for 10 hours on this 25 second intro. My goal was to make the banjo LOUD and PRESENT. I think I may have overdone it. Next time I will take it easier on the limiter and cut more highs and, hopefully, get a better overall banjo sound . .and maybe not even use the limiter. This is my first time using one . .not sure what I think of it yet.


https://www.dropbox.com/s/syadkbslab...02014.mp3?dl=0


ps - the guitar strings are 3 years old and that's the way I like it, lol. Other than telling me to get new strings - love to hear any feedbacks on how I can improve things for next go-around.
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Old 10-23-2014, 01:09 AM   #6
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Quite a lot of string rattle on the banjo.
I second the over your shoulder with 2 mics suggestion. This works really well with my 000 Martin acoustic, which has a tendency to sound a little bright otherwise.
But lightening up on your right hand technique MIGHT help tame the clankiness.

Never easy if you are trying for that fat plunking sound, but....
FWIW you are in good company - George Gruhn plays in a very similar style, although he is not THAT great at playing, better at identifying and valuing them!
Also reminded me I need to get a banjo - had mine stolen years ago and never got round to replacing it. Played a friends recently and I am SOOOOO rusty.

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Old 10-23-2014, 02:46 AM   #7
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Hi. Nice to see acoustic instruments being discussed by knowledgeable people. I am not sure I am in that category but would only add a couple of ideas about a different approach:

A pick-up on the banjo preferably through an acoustic amp recorded together with the "live" sound gives you flexibility to blend the two. Hours of fun adjusting the controls on the amp to get the best tone.

And it is expensive but this LR Baggs unit seems to do wonders for any acoustic instrument pick-up:
http://www.gak.co.uk/en/l.r.-baggs-p...FVHMtAodNFkArQ

And finally just a thought but maybe the sound is better than you think? Maybe let us hear a sample?
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Old 10-23-2014, 03:07 AM   #8
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Quite a lot of string rattle on the banjo.
I second the over your shoulder with 2 mics suggestion. This works really well with my 000 Martin acoustic, which has a tendency to sound a little bright otherwise.
But lightening up on your right hand technique MIGHT help tame the clankiness.

Never easy if you are trying for that fat plunking sound, but....
FWIW you are in good company - George Gruhn plays in a very similar style, although he is not THAT great at playing, better at identifying and valuing them!
Also reminded me I need to get a banjo - had mine stolen years ago and never got round to replacing it. Played a friends recently and I am SOOOOO rusty.

That's interesting! I am very aware of string rattle on guitar but, even after taking several listens just now, I can't really hear it on the banjo. Then again, I've been playing guitar for 28 years and banjo for 2, lol.

I looked for some clips of George Gruhn playing clawhammer but I didn't find - are you talking about the vintage guitar store guy?

Now that you mention it, though - I can see where I might benefit from lightening up my right hand. I think you're right - I'm hitting it hard because I'm trying to bring out as much plunk and growl as I can. I will definitely see what I can do to lighten up my right hand - maybe I can train myself to still go after the wound strings but lighten up, otherwise. Maybe I will look into heavier gage strings and/or raising the action as well.

In the meantime, I'm going to stick with the Samson S1 and try more mic placements - especially over the shoulder. Thanks! Much appreciated.
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Old 10-23-2014, 07:35 AM   #9
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I'm at work now, so I can't listen to the clip. But I would suggest that, in addition to the mic techniques suggested above, you should try using something like Hornet Autogain to ride the banjo's volume before the compressor so you don't have to do so many manual adjustments. It sounds like it will save you a LOT of time from your posts and its only about $15.

Also, try recording in different rooms. If you don't like the ones you have at your disposal, try recording in a local theater, church, empty warehouse, school, etc. Sometimes you can find some really interesting sounding rooms to record in at no cost.
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Old 10-23-2014, 09:03 AM   #10
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I'm at work now, so I can't listen to the clip. But I would suggest that, in addition to the mic techniques suggested above, you should try using something like Hornet Autogain to ride the banjo's volume before the compressor so you don't have to do so many manual adjustments. It sounds like it will save you a LOT of time from your posts and its only about $15.

Also, try recording in different rooms. If you don't like the ones you have at your disposal, try recording in a local theater, church, empty warehouse, school, etc. Sometimes you can find some really interesting sounding rooms to record in at no cost.
Thanks for the response! I don't know how autogain works but it seems like it might not help? Posting this thread has made me think things through more clearly . .so now I understand the problem is this (outside of playing techniques):

In order to get the low end sound I want, I'm pointing the mic towards the top half of the banjo head - basically right at the low strings. however, the drone string (the short, high pitched one) is right above the lowest sounding string. The drone string is the primary offender in clipping. When I get the low strings to sound like I want (or close to it) the drone string clips every time I play it.

Autogain would control the level on the whole banjo, right? What I want to do is even it out so the high notes - especially the drone string - don't drown out the low notes. Heard live somehow we are able to process this and it sounds normal. At least nobody's ever told me - hey man, lay off that drone string! Nor have I really heard any other players talk about trying to ease off on the drone string.

I could try to play the drone string quieter but that's easier said than done. The drone string is a pull-off - it's never struck. That pull-off motion is sort of ingrained into my subconscious.

So now I have 4 separate ideas to try (in no particular order):

1. Learn to play the drone string quieter

2. Modify the banjo in some way to deaden the drone string for recording - maybe by sliding a piece of foam or something between it and the neck. I've never had a problem with it in live playing but deadening it would not be a bad thing for my overall sound - it doesn't need to ring like it does.

3. Use high/low pass filters to separate and process the top end differently from the bottom end. I did some experiments with this just now and, while the results were bad, it seems like it could be worth looking into.

4. Try to find a mic position and/or room that gives better results. If I could find one that could capture the low-end without pointing the mic at the low strings that would probably solve it.

Anyway - thanks a bunch to all who responded - I really appreciate the feedback and please let me know if anybody has any other ideas to try or feedback on the recording I posted, etc.

Hopefully I'll learn something and be able to help somebody else out someday.
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Old 10-23-2014, 10:08 AM   #11
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Here is a tip I got decades ago from one of the Nashville pickers. I never did try it but it worked on my old cheapo tele with no thru stringing. Thread a little piece of the plastic covering of instrument hookup wire onto the top G string and resting it on the bridge will cool the "edge" down without actually damping the string right down. Worth a try....
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Old 10-23-2014, 10:12 AM   #12
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Here is a tip I got decades ago from one of the Nashville pickers. I never did try it but it worked on my old cheapo tele with no thru stringing. Thread a little piece of the plastic covering of instrument hookup wire onto the top G string and resting it on the bridge will cool the "edge" down without actually damping the string right down. Worth a try....
Thanks! I've been doing some research on this and I'm not as alone as I thought. The legendary Kyle Creed did exactly what you describe. I'm going to try it.
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Old 10-23-2014, 12:47 PM   #13
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Experiment.
I think this is the key. In my experience, such as it is, when a person is looking for a particular subtle shade of a sound they just need to experiment a bunch, along the lines of what Fex suggested. I'd add: you could take the shell off and try micing it from behind, try with the shell on but a towel inside the shell, etc etc. A million options. Take a few days and try a bunch of things. Clearly name all the files you record to (or the equivalent), and takes lots of in-depth notes, and summarize your results in writing, so when you come back to it all months later you won't have to start from scratch.

My money is on mic position(s)/technique and room as being the important factors. If I were you i would definitely not start spending money on mics or plugins until you've done a ton of experimentation with what you already have.

Quote:
If the live sound is good to your ear, then you should certainly try a greater mic distance between the mic and the banjo.
I'm in a band with washtub bass, tenor banjo (me), and accordion -- three of the hardest instruments to record. :-) I second the notion that backing up with the mic will give a more natural sound, and i prefer to record that way, but it also makes the room sound much more relevant, which can be good or bad, and it will possibly take some of the warmth out of the banjo, too. You said you're 8 inches away, and i like that distance for banjo, myself, but i don't have a great room.

On the audio clip you shared: i think it sounds fine. I'd maybe ease off the pick sound of the guitar a touch (where was mic position?), and the overall mix does sound slightly compress-y to me, but not egregiously so. And I think the overall timbre of the banjo is great. The banjo is a seriously dynamic instrument that can get tremendously loud with the slightest variation in playing pressure, so don't beat yourself up if you have to use a bunch of compression to tame it, especially if you're close-micing. As your mixing techniques improve it won't take 10 hours to dial it in every time. :-)

Quote:
ps - the guitar strings are 3 years old and that's the way I like it, lol.
Me too. :-)

Quote:
Other than telling me to get new strings - love to hear any feedbacks on how I can improve things for next go-around.
Don't get new strings. :-) I think the guitar sounds nice, too.

I'm a stereo junkie -- my ear wants to hear a stereo field. Especially for a video show intro that probably wants to be exciting and alive sounding. I record everything in stereo. For a mix like this you probably don't want wide-pan the instruments left/right, so I'd probably record in mid/side for each instrument next time just to give a sense of space. But you'd have to get a mic capable of figure-8 for mid/side, so instead you could use other stereo techniques. I have also enjoyed the sound of ribbon mics on banjo (not that i'm suggesting gear as the solution).

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Originally Posted by ivansc View Post
Quite a lot of string rattle on the banjo.
Hmmm.... I also don't hear this... at least not a lot. I hear a lot of pick sound on the guitar, and I hear a lot of what sounds like fingerpicks on the banjo, like the sound it makes when a metal fingerpick contacts a moving string just before the pluck happens. Possibly a result of mic position (see below). But not offensive; kinda part of a normal banjo sound, to me...

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In order to get the low end sound I want, I'm pointing the mic towards the top half of the banjo head - basically right at the low strings.
That's not where i'd point the mic, personally, based on what you described as your goal. I'd expect lots of plucking/picking/fret buzz sounds there. Try halfway between the bridge and the rim, or pointed towards the opening between the head and the shell and see if it's better? You could even come in closer with the mic (4 inches?) to pick up a little proximity effect. It could get a little squaky/midrangey, but might be a better starting place: might be easier to eq out some squak than to remove too much finger pick sound.

Note that the presence of pick/fingerpick/fret/etc sounds in a banjo or guitar or mandolin recording can make the recording sound as if there is too much high frequency in the overall timbre: this fools me sometimes: the overall susatined timbre is perfect, even dark, but it sounds harsh and shrill because of a psychoacoustic effect from the pick sounds, so instead of using a darker mic or whatever you might just need to avoid the pick sounds (or use a different pick, etc).

Quote:
When I get the low strings to sound like I want (or close to it) the drone string clips every time I play it.
You might also try switching back to the SM81. Using a dynamic mic (the S1) makes a lot of sense given your goals, and i'm decidedly anti-snob when it comes to mic choice, but this might be a case where it makes sense to use the "nicer" mic... Just saying: include it in the experimentation you're doing rather than just deciding that the samson works better for the banjo based on a couple tests. E.g. the samson could have a resonance at the frequency of the drone string. A SDC like the SM81 is going to hear the transients, and you seem to want to avoid that sound, so, fair enough, but it most likely has a far flatter frequency response than the S1.

Banjo are mysterious and there is so much variation between them and how they are set up that maybe all my points fall flat, but good luck to you. :-)
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Old 10-23-2014, 01:18 PM   #14
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Hmmm.... I also don't hear this... at least not a lot. I hear a lot of pick sound on the guitar, and I hear a lot of what sounds like fingerpicks on the banjo, like the sound it makes when a metal fingerpick contacts a moving string just before the pluck happens. Possibly a result of mic position (see below). But not offensive; kinda part of a normal banjo sound, to me...
I didn't notice anything amiss until ivansc pointed it out, but there is something slightly odd going on with the banjo. I think my guitarist ears tune out the guitar picking somewhat.

I concur with clepsydrae - I wouldn't call it 'rattle', and it's not offensive to my ears, though I'd maybe tame it a little, if possible. This is probably not relevant given that different set-ups will produce different results.

Throughout the experimentation process, which is bound to have its frustrations, I hope that BanjoChris can keep sight of the fact that the overall quality here is already extremely high.
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Old 10-23-2014, 01:39 PM   #15
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Since a banjo can be quite dynamic with high transients ... you may want to experiment using a dynamic mic [rather than condenser].

A trick I learned from B.Swedian
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Old 10-23-2014, 07:00 PM   #16
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Wow - thanks for the great responses. I now know what I'm doing this weekend You all have given me a LOT to think about and a bunch of different avenues to head down as I try to figure this recording thing out. I'm going to start with experimenting with room and mic placements. I'll try both mics separately and together. After that I'll try deadening the drone string with speaker wire casing. After all that, if it turns out I still prefer the dynamic mic, I'll get a better one.

Just for reference on the clip I posted:
Banjo: Bart Reiter Special. Open backed with tone ring and steel strings. Played without picks. Recorded with Samsun S1 dynamic mic.

Guitar: old Guild acoustic. Recorded with Shure sm81 mic. Mic was about a foot away pointing straight at the 12th fret.

I used a 2:1 compression, threshold @ -20, attack @ 10, release @ .5. I compressed the guitar and banjo as well as the master mix . .all with the same settings. I used the compressor and eq plugins that came with my Scarlett 2i2. For the eq, I just cut the lows and highs. I didn't boost anything. THEN I ran everything through the JS:Loser master limiter with the default settings except I lowered the threshold to -2. I don't actually even know what the limiter settings mean but it made it louder.

I'm really excited to learn all this stuff although it's a little daunting. There's honestly so much more to it then I thought. A HECK of a lot more than just jotting down song ideas - which is all I've ever done in the past.

What basically started as my buddy saying "hey, why don't you record some music for my show" turned into this monster project but it's really lots of fun. If I had known what it would involve, I would've said "no" . .so I'm glad I had no idea what it would involve

Thanks again, sincerely.
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Old 10-23-2014, 09:33 PM   #17
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I used a 2:1 compression, threshold @ -20, attack @ 10, release @ .5.
10ms, I assume?
And .5 what? Seconds? Or is that some ambiguous unit? Not 0.5ms, I assume?

For the record, 2:1 is "very light" compression (assuming the threshold isn't causing it to dig in all the time. 2: or max 4: on the master bus is about right, though, to me). If you're trying to tame intense banjo pluck transients it wouldn't be crazy to have 10: or possibly even 20:1 with the threshold set just low enough to take off the loudest notes. Generally I like manually automating, as you did, before compression, but it obviously takes more time. You should be able to dial in a compressor (or multiple compressors in series) to calm it down.

When you automated the banjo volume curve, were you adjusting the "item envelope" or the more common track envelope? In case you didn't know, the track curve is post-FX, meaning compression VSTs in the track FX chain would be applied before that curve is apllied, which is probably not what you want. You can adjust the "pre-FX" volume curve instead to tame things manually, and the result is then fed into the FX to be compressed. (And you can also use the regular post-FX curve as well if you want.)

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I don't actually even know what the limiter settings mean but it made it louder.
Careful, someone will use that quote in their signature. :-)

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I'm really excited to learn all this stuff although it's a little daunting. There's honestly so much more to it then I thought.
I think the discrepancy between how deep audio engineering and mixing/mastering really are, and how deep they seem to be to the uninitiated, is really fascinating. It is crazy deep, and it really does take practice and study. I've been doing it casually for 15 years and i still feel like a beginner.

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turned into this monster project but it's really lots of fun.
Get out while you still can!
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Old 10-23-2014, 11:42 PM   #18
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Wouldn't playing without picks have a massive effect on the sound? I don't play banjo but do play lap dobro and the sound with and without picks is masssively different. I have my Dad's old 5 string in the roof - I must get her out and have a plunk.
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Old 10-23-2014, 11:49 PM   #19
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I'm really excited to learn all this stuff although it's a little daunting. There's honestly so much more to it then I thought.
There is, literally, an infinite amount to learn, and a finite period to learn it in. This is why it's important to set realistic goals and focus on them, and to celebrate your victories.

I get the impression that you have a lot of material to record, but unless you're planning to work with more instrumentation, your goal here seems fairly straightforward. Once you've got the sound you want, you'll probably get a lot finished quite quickly, if you don't lose your enthusiasm. You could probably go ahead with what you've got right now, and make this work to a high standard.

Last edited by Fex; 10-24-2014 at 07:42 AM. Reason: typo
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Old 10-24-2014, 02:31 AM   #20
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Sounded more like you were accidentally snapping one of the strings against the fretboard. But there again, banjos are supposed to be a bit clanky, arent they?


And I agree with fingerstyle rather than with picks.
FWIW I used to get a great sound out of an old eight string "zither" banjo in the sixties using a big old hard felt pick and my middle & ring finger.
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Old 10-24-2014, 07:23 AM   #21
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Thanks for the response! I don't know how autogain works but it seems like it might not help?
In the OP, you said:

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Not to mention it takes a zillion hours of manual volume editing to make the banjo loud enough and "up front" enough without clipping.
Autogain does the manual volume riding for you automatically, within the parameters that you set, so it should save you a zillion hours of volume riding effort per song. But it won't do anything to help you get a different tone - that's the player, the banjo itself, the room, the mic placement, the mic choice, etc.
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Old 10-24-2014, 07:55 AM   #22
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10ms, I assume?
And .5 what? Seconds? Or is that some ambiguous unit? Not 0.5ms, I assume?

For the record, 2:1 is "very light" compression (assuming the threshold isn't causing it to dig in all the time. 2: or max 4: on the master bus is about right, though, to me). If you're trying to tame intense banjo pluck transients it wouldn't be crazy to have 10: or possibly even 20:1 with the threshold set just low enough to take off the loudest notes. Generally I like manually automating, as you did, before compression, but it obviously takes more time. You should be able to dial in a compressor (or multiple compressors in series) to calm it down.

When you automated the banjo volume curve, were you adjusting the "item envelope" or the more common track envelope? In case you didn't know, the track curve is post-FX, meaning compression VSTs in the track FX chain would be applied before that curve is apllied, which is probably not what you want. You can adjust the "pre-FX" volume curve instead to tame things manually, and the result is then fed into the FX to be compressed. (And you can also use the regular post-FX curve as well if you want.)
Yes - .5 seconds. I only "sort of" understand what compression settings mean, too,lol. I noticed though, that with more compression it started to affect the sound of the instruments in a way I didn't like. The 2:1 setting kind of did more for the "feel" and blending the tracks together than helping me with the high peaks.

I think I was probably using the track envelope. I clicked the little shape thing on the track. How would I edit the item envelope instead?


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Originally Posted by Twangothan View Post
Wouldn't playing without picks have a massive effect on the sound? I don't play banjo but do play lap dobro and the sound with and without picks is masssively different. I have my Dad's old 5 string in the roof - I must get her out and have a plunk.
Yes! But clawhammer-style banjo is played without picks.

It started out as this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjYcWj_HPhQ

But a more modern interpretation is this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jls7tBWx_CY

In the clip I posted above of my recording, the banjo is played clawhammer-style without picks.

Edit: Well, actually, clawhammer banjo started out as Irish folk tunes . .but I'm more interested in the style that started in Appalachia (south east us) - which was based on Irish fiddle tunes. If you ever get the chance, check out the movie "Song Catcher".

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Originally Posted by Fex View Post
There is, literslly, an infinite amount to learn, and a finite period to learn it in. This is why it's important to set realistic goals and focus on them, and to celebrate your victories.

I get the impression that you have a lot of material to record, but unless you're planning to work with more instrumentation, your goal here seems fairly straightforward. Once you've got the sound you want, you'll probably get a lot finished quite quickly, if you don't lose your enthusiasm. You could probably go ahead with what you've got right now, and make this work to a high standard.
Yeah - I do have a bunch of stuff to record. All featuring just guitar and banjo although some of the tracks will have guitar leads as well (flatpicking style).

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Originally Posted by drtedtan View Post

Autogain does the manual volume riding for you automatically, within the parameters that you set, so it should save you a zillion hours of volume riding effort per song. But it won't do anything to help you get a different tone - that's the player, the banjo itself, the room, the mic placement, the mic choice, etc.
I will check into it. What I did was record the banjo at a level/mic position that I thought was best but this resulted in a good average sound with a lot of high peaks that clip. For each clipping high peak, I create a volume automation to drop the volume for a split second - just for the initial attack of the clipping note.

Last edited by BanjoChris; 10-24-2014 at 08:10 AM.
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Old 10-24-2014, 01:10 PM   #23
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Yes - .5 seconds. I only "sort of" understand what compression settings mean, too,lol.
Compression is one of the harder things to learn in the art of mixing. The banjo is an especially hard thing to compress, for me, anyway. It's basically like compressing a sharp percussion instrument.

I'm repeating what I said earlier, but: You could try setting the attack to whatever its minimum is (1ms, .01ms, even 0ms, whatever that particular compressor can do), the ratio to like 15:1, the release to something like 80ms (.08s), and then bring the threshold down slowly until it's kicking in with like 6dB reduction only on the hottest notes. Then you could use a second compressor after that, again with minimal attack time, maybe 8:1 ratio, 80ms release, and threshold just low enough to take a few db off some of the hotter notes: in other words, the second compressor is kicking in a little more often but more gently. This is kind of a two-stage "soft limiting" approach that isn't trying to shape the attack of the note separately from the body of the note; you're basically dialing in a robot that will do note-for-note automation for you. Start with dialing in just the first, and then adjust both so that they are working without making it sound weird. Might work for you, might not... something to try, anyway. You can also do one variant of "parallel" compression where you mix some of the dry signal in with a more heavily compressed signal. It's easy to do this with ReaComp, for example.

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I noticed though, that with more compression it started to affect the sound of the instruments in a way I didn't like.
Good instincts, i'd say.

Quote:
I think I was probably using the track envelope. I clicked the little shape thing on the track. How would I edit the item envelope instead?
Right-click the item, Take -> "Take volume envelope". I'm sure there's a way to make a shortcut key for that as well.

The pre-fx envelope is accessible through the envelope button on the track (left- or right-click) but the take envelope moves more easily with the item.

Quote:
In the clip I posted above of my recording, the banjo is played clawhammer-style without picks.
Perhaps the sounds in question are the backs of your nails on the vibrating strings, and perhaps that would indeed be lessened by playing lighter, or perhaps heavier strings would get you equivalent volume with less string displacement and thus less of that sound. If desired.

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I will check into it. What I did was record the banjo at a level/mic position that I thought was best but this resulted in a good average sound with a lot of high peaks that clip. For each clipping high peak, I create a volume automation to drop the volume for a split second - just for the initial attack of the clipping note.
If you upload the raw banjo track, others could evaluate it or take a whirl at processing it in different ways.
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Old 10-24-2014, 02:24 PM   #24
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I'd say if picks are part of your sound, keep 'em.

For big transient material like this, parallel compression could work very well. It will allow you to reduce the dynamics without sacrificing pick attack.
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Old 10-24-2014, 02:25 PM   #25
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I'd say if picks are part of your sound, keep 'em.
He said he's not playing with picks (on the banjo).
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Old 10-24-2014, 02:29 PM   #26
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He said he's not playing with picks (on the banjo).
D'oh! Serves me right for skimming.

I say, if picks aren't part of your sound, don't use 'em!
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Old 10-25-2014, 07:33 AM   #27
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Coincidentally I have just come across an article on recording banjo in an old Sound on Sound (Aug 2008 p18.) To summarise:

1.Close miking is not good - 3ft or more to let the sound develop
2. "A fast accurate mic with little coloration - small diaphragm condensor" angled at edge not centre of instrument
3. Experiment. Even try miking over player's shoulder!
4. For stereo try a crossed pair about 3 ft away
5. Another person suggested an omni mike 7 ft away (in a "decent" room)
6. Watch those transients - they may not show on meters as they are big and fast!(?)
So mostly endorses what others have said I guess.
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Old 10-25-2014, 08:37 AM   #28
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I have a pair of silver bullet sdcs that are tiny - the size of an XLR connector plugged into a lead. hang one over each shoulder from behind you and see what you get. I use this a lot in my small studio for a reasonably natural acoustic guitar sound with a 000 Martin.
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Old 10-25-2014, 09:08 AM   #29
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been reading with interest, and am compelled to say that this sounds like a perfect situation for a cheap Ribbon mic.

Reasons:

seems a banjo is a transient monster - ribbons tame and deal with that free of charge. they are deemed 'slow' but i find i get a natural response from guitar attacks which condensers oft make too much of.

you want full bottom end - free of charge with a ribbon.

consensus is that banjo needs some development time / space / room and with a ribbons figure of 8 pattern you get some room ambience thrown in for free.

recording should also instantly sound a bit 'vintage' yet natural out of the box.

-
positioning is a little trickier, since i've had mine found you kind of need to unlearn expected mic placements, just try things out.

e.g i found with my acoustic guitar (by moving a portable recorder around with headphones on) that having mic placed adjacent, slightly above and behind the headstock aimed at the body, gave a nice 'as i hear it' sound without too much unpleasant string attack when i strum hard, that would normally yield a too thin sound for most mics, but the ribbon likes it.

just thought i do my 'sponsored by ribbons' bit.
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Old 10-25-2014, 12:58 PM   #30
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Damn! Sold my only ribbon mic because I never really found a use for it - and now I am on the brink of buying a banjo! I think the ribbon mic may well be a good idea - worth renting one for a weekend to see.
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Old 10-25-2014, 02:28 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenK-msx View Post
been reading with interest, and am compelled to say that this sounds like a perfect situation for a cheap Ribbon mic.

Reasons:

seems a banjo is a transient monster - ribbons tame and deal with that free of charge. they are deemed 'slow' but i find i get a natural response from guitar attacks which condensers oft make too much of.

you want full bottom end - free of charge with a ribbon.

consensus is that banjo needs some development time / space / room and with a ribbons figure of 8 pattern you get some room ambience thrown in for free.

recording should also instantly sound a bit 'vintage' yet natural out of the box.

-
positioning is a little trickier, since i've had mine found you kind of need to unlearn expected mic placements, just try things out.

e.g i found with my acoustic guitar (by moving a portable recorder around with headphones on) that having mic placed adjacent, slightly above and behind the headstock aimed at the body, gave a nice 'as i hear it' sound without too much unpleasant string attack when i strum hard, that would normally yield a too thin sound for most mics, but the ribbon likes it.

just thought i do my 'sponsored by ribbons' bit.

You might be right about using a ribbon mic. The banjo IS a transient monster. After a bunch of mic placement tests today I derived the following:

1. With either of the 2 mics I own (Samson S1 and Shure SM81) I'm going to have issues with transients regardless of placement. I tried 18 inches away, 3 feet away and over the shoulder as well as several different places to aim the mic.

I'm using a Scarlett 2i2 and, regardless of mic or position, when it says the levels are good, the transients are clipping in Reaper. And the 2i2 is "right" in that's the level where the overall sound is best. So I'm stuck with either manual volume edits or lots of compression. I found I need a ratio of 10:1 to tame the transients and, while it's not terrible, it's nowhere near as good sounding as the manual volume edits. With the banjo being the "main thing" in my recording, I just can't do it (compress that much).

If I record it low enough that it doesn't clip in Reaper, it sounds far away and removed. If I try to "embiggen" it, I'm back to clipping or hard compression. And there's a lot of small but important bits of musical information in the very high frequencies. All the harmonics and squeaking and clucking make the banjo sound real. Taken away, there is a total loss of energy and it starts to sound like an unplugged electric guitar.

I did find that using both mics, the Samson close in and the sm81 3 feet away blended for a nice sound. I still had the usual transient issues on the close mic but the far mic can be turned down and then just blended in for some ambiance and realism.

Since all the pieces I'm about to record are short, I'll probably just tough it out with the volume edit approach but I'm going to start researching ribbon mics to see if I might want to pick one of those up for future projects.

This thread has been a great help to me - thanks for all the advice.
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Old 10-25-2014, 03:18 PM   #32
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If I record it low enough that it doesn't clip in Reaper, it sounds far away and removed. If I try to "embiggen" it, I'm back to clipping or hard compression.
Did you record and keep? Not that this is going to help you necessarily, and I appreciate that your experiments won't exactly show your chops, but I'd be really intersted to hear what you're getting, if you can be bothered.
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Old 10-26-2014, 10:36 AM   #33
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So I'm stuck with either manual volume edits or lots of compression.
I don't understand - there is always more than one way to skin a cat. Even if you don't want to spend the $15 on AutoGain (which is more than worth the cost), you have other options to accomplish the same thing as manual volume riding. You could:

1. Use Reaper's parameter modulation in conjunction with a gain plugin like Free G or JS utility:volume_pan (included with Reaper). See this post for instructions;

2. Use a transient plugin to control the transients (Reaper comes with two: JS Loser/Transient Killer and JS Loser/Transient Controller);

3. Use a tape simulation plugin to remove another 3 - 6 dB of transients in a smooth, natural manner after using one of the above. For free, try something like TB Ferox or Ferric TDS.

Doing either 1 or 2 above, plus 3 should get you a lot closer to where you want to be without the negatives that come with using a lot of compression.

Another approach with compressors is to use two or three compressors in series with each one doing a little of the work rather than using one compressor doing heavy compression. This way sounds more natural.

Experiment with the various methods above to see what works for you. Whichever combination you go with will be easier than what you are currently doing.
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Old 10-27-2014, 02:16 PM   #34
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Sorry I've been out - I had a major flood at my house on Saturday and have been pulling out carpets and getting estimates and all that fun stuff.

I actually did not keep my initial mic and placement tests but I'm going to do some more this week and I will keep and post those if anybody is interested.

@drtedtan . . .I checked into Autogain but it seemed like it's intended use is not what I'm looking for? It seems like it's designed to keep vocals, for example, above the mix. It seems to need a reference track to synch, too. What I'd want to tell it is . . "anytime the volume goes hits XXX, drop it to YYY for .25 seconds and then return it immediately to XXX". The controls and settings it has don't seem to be able to do that.

As for the other ideas you mentioned . .I never heard of those, lol. I will check into it. Remember you are talking to a guy making his first recording of any sort in about 7 or 8 years. The recordings I made 8-10 years ago where of electric instruments, primarily just to get down song ideas and not worrying with the sound quality . .and also done on something called Cool Edit Pro. I didn't really know how to use Cool Edit Pro, either.

Oh, and I did some thinking about microphones. It seems like, in addition to a ribbon, a large diaphragm condenser might be suitable as well. Certainly much cheaper. I'm going to need to do a lot of research before I plunk down any cash - but the EV RE20 and the Beyer M160 have caught my attention. It'll probably take me 6 month to decide on a microphone, though - so what I've got is what I've got for this project.

Last edited by BanjoChris; 10-27-2014 at 02:25 PM.
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Old 10-27-2014, 02:48 PM   #35
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I haven't read the whole thread so excuse me if i'm doubling up on what somone else has covered.

I've recorded a fair bit of banjo, 5 string scruggs style, never claw hammer style but i think they would be similar.

The thing with banjo is its just such a complex, dynamic sound, all kinds of sounds going on, and complex overtones.
Weird metalic noises from the metal finger picks draging across the strings, other noises coming from finger tips moving across the head/skin, throw all that in with the general Loud, agressive, party animal attitude the banjo has and you have yourself one complex beast to record.

Best results i,ve got are with a small dia condenser / Ribbon mic combination, don't get too close to the banjo, imagine sticking your head 8 inches from that thing and sitting through a whole song

Mic position is crucial and will be different for each banjo and player but is by far the most important.

I'm not familar with the mics you have but my advice would be the experiment with position - distance with your mics before buying anything new.

Also actual playing technique will play a big role in the recorded outcome ( as with all instruments ) so try to play consistantly when recording.

hth's some, good luck with it.

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Old 11-08-2014, 03:08 AM   #36
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So - finally got the mess from the flood cleaned up and got back to some more microphone tests. I'll tell you in advance, the results are confusing/shocking.

With headphones on, I played around with mic position and determined that the best spot to aim at for my banjo playing clawhammer style is right where the neck meets the body. I frail over the neck so the mic is aimed at the back of my right hand. I don't know why but for this banjo and the mics I have, this is definitely the best sounding position.

now for the shocking part. The 2 attached files are recordings of the same performance. I placed a Shure sm81 about 4 feet away, aiming at the back of my right hand and I placed a Samson S1 about 10 inches away, also pointing at the back of my right hand.

The mics are about as different as can be. A $300 small condenser mic, placed 4 feet away and a $50 dynamic mic placed up close. They should sound *really* different. Right? They do sound different - but, to my ears and on my listening gear, it really doesn't make *that* much of a difference.

I set the recording levels at around -18. I read that in an article about recording in 24bits . I have no idea, in the past I always tried to record as hot as possible without clipping .. but this seems to work the same.

For the rendered wavs, I turned up the master fader just so it wouldn't be so quiet. There are no effects or eq or anything.

I had my driver set for 256k sample rate and 3ms buffer length. For the first clip I posted I had them set at 512 and 6ms but I've been playing around. It doesn't *seem* to make a huge difference in sound quality.

My interface is a Scarlett 2i2. My playback gear is either hd280 headphones or on some decent bookshelf speakers. Either way, I can hardly tell a difference between the 2 clips. At least - no where NEAR what I would've expected between 2 different mic types, placement and mic price-points.

Samson S1, 10 inches away, aimed straight on where neck meets body:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/xb5j7t0hlw...close.wav?dl=0

Shure sm81, 4ft away, aimed straight on where neck meets body:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/tn27dc7shz...1_far.wav?dl=0


Both these clips were recorded in my office . .a 10X6 section of my garage that I walled off - so pretty awful in terms of room quality.


Am I doing something wrong or do microphones really not make that much of a difference?
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Old 11-08-2014, 03:50 AM   #37
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Am I doing something wrong or do microphones really not make that much of a difference?
You're doing something wrong, as evidenced by the posted wavs. The recording sounds very nice, by the way.

Be it Samson, Shure, or a combination of both, the files you posted are identical. I don't mean that the microphones sound very similar, I mean it's the same file, twice, differing in name only. My ear told me this, my eye told me this, and running the files together on different tracks in REAPER, then inverting the phase of one of the tracks, will confirm.
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Old 11-08-2014, 10:38 AM   #38
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You're doing something wrong, as evidenced by the posted wavs. The recording sounds very nice, by the way.

Be it Samson, Shure, or a combination of both, the files you posted are identical. I don't mean that the microphones sound very similar, I mean it's the same file, twice, differing in name only. My ear told me this, my eye told me this, and running the files together on different tracks in REAPER, then inverting the phase of one of the tracks, will confirm.
ha - whoops! I have no idea what happened. Track 1 is set to input 1 and track 2 to input 2 but the waves recorded are the same. Hard to tell because they're so tiny. So I don't know . .maybe that's one or the other mic or a blend of the 2.

Wife is taking the kids to the park later this afternoon so I'll try again. Sorry about that!
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Old 11-08-2014, 11:55 AM   #39
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Hard to tell because they're so tiny.
Shift-up-arrow and shift-down-arrow changes the scale of the displayed waveform (doesn't change the file or the volume in the project, just the visual display).
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Old 11-08-2014, 12:24 PM   #40
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@drtedtan . . .I checked into Autogain but it seemed like it's intended use is not what I'm looking for? It seems like it's designed to keep vocals, for example, above the mix. It seems to need a reference track to synch, too. What I'd want to tell it is . . "anytime the volume goes hits XXX, drop it to YYY for .25 seconds and then return it immediately to XXX". The controls and settings it has don't seem to be able to do that.
The trick to making it do what you want is to use something at a constant volume for the side-chain input, like a white noise signal. That way, the reference track is at a constant volume and you can set the AutoGain plugin to match it however closely you want (which controls how much reduction you get on the loud peaks of the wav file).

If you do decide to go with this, shoot me a PM and I'll be happy to walk you through it. And if you want, post a raw wav file of your banjo and I can run it through a few of the different processing approaches I mentioned above so you can get an idea of how they will affect your recordings.

But do keep in mind that its always best to get the tracks recorded as well as possible up front. That way you're enhancing a good sounding track rather than trying to fix a track that doesn't sound so good. So keep experimenting with mics and mic placement like you are now. Maybe try recording one track at a time until you sort out what's happening with your recordings so you know you are only getting that particular mic and placement combination for evaluation. I know a lot of guys try to keep the same performance for evaluation purposes, especially with subtle differences, but mic placement shouldn't be subtle. You should hear obvious differences when you have the mic in different positions.


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Originally Posted by BanjoChris View Post
I set the recording levels at around -18. I read that in an article about recording in 24bits . I have no idea, in the past I always tried to record as hot as possible without clipping .. but this seems to work the same.
With 16 bit recording, you had to record as hot as possible for the best signal to noise ratio. With 24 bit recording, a lot guys are recording at an average (RMS) level of -18dBFS, with the peaks hitting somewhere between -12dBFS and -6dBFS, because this works well with hardware EQs, compressors, etc. as well as plugin FX modeled on analog hardware. But as long as you are recording at 24 bit and not distorting your peaks, the only difference you would get is a slightly higher noise floor at -18dBFS. And when I say slightly higher, I mean that it probably wouldn't even be audible.


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Originally Posted by BanjoChris View Post
I had my driver set for 256k sample rate and 3ms buffer length. For the first clip I posted I had them set at 512 and 6ms but I've been playing around. It doesn't *seem* to make a huge difference in sound quality.
The benefit of using a lower sample rate is less latency (delay) in hearing what you play when you are using a keyboard to control a software synthesizer and so forth. It won't affect the recorded quality, but you will hear pops/clicks in the playback if you set this too low. Note that this is on playback only; these pops and clicks aren't actually recorded into the wav file.
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