Old 09-19-2014, 11:38 AM   #1
AudioWonderland
Human being with feelings
 
AudioWonderland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 729
Default Sweetening Guitar tracks

I do guitars through an ISO cab. I have the raw sound from the cab pretty well dialed in. Obviously they have no room sound / ambient qualities. I have been working with the various free reverbs available. Several of them just do plates which is not what I want. A few have a really gritty/spitty tail that do not sound good at all. So far Epicverb and SIR are the only that are doing it for me so far. Epicverb sounds OK solo but largely disappears in context. I have a big collection of impulses for SIR. I have not had a lot of time to try a lot of them. The latency is also a problem for use during tracking.

So, in short, what do you guys do/use to give your direct tracks / ISO tracks / Amp sims etc a sense of space in the real world vs being a 2 dimensional simulation?
AudioWonderland is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2014, 11:46 AM   #2
hwhalen
Human being with feelings
 
hwhalen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,034
Default

Reverberate LE & Kalthallen cabs
__________________
My Music
Noise From My Head
On The Links
hwhalen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2014, 11:57 AM   #3
brainwreck
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 20,859
Default

Give Kjaerhus Classic Reverb a try. It does a pretty convincing small room sound that I haven't heard other reverb plugins do.

Maybe there are some convincing room impulse responses for loading in reaverb, too.
__________________
It's time to take a stand against the synthesizer.
brainwreck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2014, 11:58 AM   #4
brainwreck
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 20,859
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hwhalen View Post
Reverberate LE & Kalthallen cabs
He's using an iso cab.
__________________
It's time to take a stand against the synthesizer.
brainwreck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2014, 12:01 PM   #5
AudioWonderland
Human being with feelings
 
AudioWonderland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 729
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by brainwreck View Post
Give Kjaerhus Classic Reverb a try. It does a pretty convincing small room sound that I haven't heard other reverb plugins do.

Maybe there are some convincing room impulse responses for loading in reaverb, too.
Thats an idea to be sure.

I do have the classic series plugs. I will have to pull them from the archive and check it out again.

Would the impulses I have for SIR work in reaverberate and have less latency?
AudioWonderland is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2014, 12:08 PM   #6
AudioWonderland
Human being with feelings
 
AudioWonderland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 729
Default

I generally load up my effects into effects tracks (1 per track) and then use sends from whatever needs that effect to route it there. Just like we used to do it with hardware and saves processing power. I can't think of any reason that would cause issues but I thought I would put it out there to chew on if others disagree.
AudioWonderland is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2014, 12:53 PM   #7
brainwreck
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 20,859
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AudioWonderland View Post
Would the impulses I have for SIR work in reaverberate and have less latency?
I think the impulses should work. Reaverb can be set for zero latency by checking the 'zl' box and pressing play/stop (not sure why play/stop is necessary to reset the buffer, but it works).
__________________
It's time to take a stand against the synthesizer.
brainwreck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2014, 01:28 PM   #8
alex1073
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 628
Default

Use algo verbs. Firstly - what's wrong with plates? The best free reverb happens to be plate Tal-Reverb-2, closely followed by PoorPlate(no gui, great sound this one). Then try DevilTubeSpringReverb (sounds great, but is a stomp box style fx - it can't be used as a send effect and is a bit hungry plug but other than that it's definitely a keeper). For $20 my go-to spring is Necklace by SKnote (put in another 10 bucks and add a great plate to the bundle - Verbtone. Those two plugs are great.

Then add Valhalla Room to that, if you can, and you're all set (and all the other Valhalla DSP plugs, of course). But that can wait. Let's see nice simple cpu light stuff: MVerb, Abstractchamber, DXReverbLight, Mo'Verb, VoxengoOldSchoolVerb. That's plenty enough and top quality stuff. other tha that you should have thos couple of great IRs libraries and you're all set (I think I linked them in another reverb thread you'd started, but may be wrong, tho. If you have problems finding them, just let me know and I'll find and post the links.

Of course the real secret here is not to find or have all the best free and/or commercial plugs. you have to narrow that down as much as possible. Example - I have an ambience a plate or two, a room, hall etc that i always start with. Some are presets that I tweaked, some I made from scratch, doesn't matter. Same with convolution verbs - I've already chosen a dozen of IRs that I like and that's it. So, generally I have maybe 10 algo presets and 10 convo. presets that I use as a starting point and and then tweak them further to make them fit the song (sometimes it's just the size or predelay, and sometimes I compress, gate, distort etc). In the hardware world I would probably have less than 10 of them etc. Ups, sorry for OT, but maybe it still helps a bit.

Cheers,
Alex

Last edited by alex1073; 09-21-2014 at 09:20 AM.
alex1073 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2014, 01:30 PM   #9
karbomusic
Human being with feelings
 
karbomusic's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29,260
Default

Most likely plates/rooms using Nebula but that is far beyond a quick thing IMHO. It's one of those things you might try if you were already familiar with Nebula in other words I would likely not say Nebula "just" for this as there is a curve among other things.

If you already had it and were familiar and had the libraries, I'd be tempted to say it would be a no-brainer but it can be a can of worms minus that.
__________________
Music is what feelings sound like.
karbomusic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2014, 01:34 PM   #10
brainwreck
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 20,859
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by alex1073 View Post
Use algo verbs. Firstly - what's wrong with plates?
A plate sounds like a plate, where a room sounds like a room. Ime, most algos do not sound like convincing rooms, but it could be user error on my part, and I'm willing to learn otherwise.
__________________
It's time to take a stand against the synthesizer.
brainwreck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2014, 02:06 PM   #11
hwhalen
Human being with feelings
 
hwhalen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,034
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by brainwreck View Post
He's using an iso cab.
In that case...

http://www.samplicity.com/
__________________
My Music
Noise From My Head
On The Links
hwhalen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2014, 02:10 PM   #12
karbomusic
Human being with feelings
 
karbomusic's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29,260
Default

Quote:
Use algo verbs. Firstly - what's wrong with plates?
Not a thing, love 'em. It just depends on what the person wants. If they want to recreate a room because they are using an iso box, not a plate cuz it isn't a room. Good/bad isn't the question but fitting of purpose. That doesn't mean a plate wouldn't sound great but it might not give what he is looking for.
__________________
Music is what feelings sound like.
karbomusic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2014, 02:12 PM   #13
karbomusic
Human being with feelings
 
karbomusic's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29,260
Default

Forgot to add, if you have a decent room, it would be easy to just reamp the room itself to grab it's ambience and mix it back in; especially if you do it in stereo.
__________________
Music is what feelings sound like.
karbomusic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2014, 02:36 PM   #14
brainwreck
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 20,859
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
Forgot to add, if you have a decent room, it would be easy to just reamp the room itself to grab it's ambience and mix it back in; especially if you do it in stereo.
Or use reaverb to create an impulse of the room.
__________________
It's time to take a stand against the synthesizer.
brainwreck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2014, 02:41 PM   #15
brainwreck
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 20,859
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hwhalen View Post
I only see impulses of hardware reverbs. Am I missing something?
__________________
It's time to take a stand against the synthesizer.
brainwreck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2014, 02:42 PM   #16
karbomusic
Human being with feelings
 
karbomusic's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29,260
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by brainwreck View Post
Or use reaverb to create an impulse of the room.
Yep, which reminds me... Going back to the mountains out in the middle of nowhere in a couple weeks. Hopefully I'll be getting some real mountain/valley reverb impulses again.
__________________
Music is what feelings sound like.
karbomusic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2014, 03:17 PM   #17
Magicbuss
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,957
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AudioWonderland View Post
I do guitars through an ISO cab. I have the raw sound from the cab pretty well dialed in. Obviously they have no room sound / ambient qualities. I have been working with the various free reverbs available. Several of them just do plates which is not what I want. A few have a really gritty/spitty tail that do not sound good at all. So far Epicverb and SIR are the only that are doing it for me so far. Epicverb sounds OK solo but largely disappears in context. I have a big collection of impulses for SIR. I have not had a lot of time to try a lot of them. The latency is also a problem for use during tracking.

So, in short, what do you guys do/use to give your direct tracks / ISO tracks / Amp sims etc a sense of space in the real world vs being a 2 dimensional simulation?
Reverberate LE is the best free convolution verb.
http://www.liquidsonics.com/software_reverberate_le.htm

Grab that and the bricasti M7 IR's from samplicity. Use the M-S IR in each folder as they are for mono to stereo (assuming the guitars are mono).
http://www.samplicity.com/bricasti-m...lse-responses/

There are lots of room, halls, plates and chambers all of very high quality. Try the large wooden room to start. Dont forget to put reaeq after the verb using filters to roll off the hi and lowend. For me Its rare to need anything below 200 or above 5k on a verb.

Also grab the free algo verbs in Alex1073's post above. To reiterate... if you want to step up from free algo's you cant beat Valhalla room or vintage for only $50 each. They hang with all the big boys.

Last edited by Magicbuss; 09-19-2014 at 03:32 PM.
Magicbuss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2014, 03:34 PM   #18
Magicbuss
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,957
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by brainwreck View Post
I only see impulses of hardware reverbs. Am I missing something?
No

But the free Bricasti M7 impulses are fantastic (best available IMO). The hardware unit is considered among the best reverb units ever made and retails for something stupid...like $5k
Magicbuss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2014, 08:43 AM   #19
beingmf
Human being with feelings
 
beingmf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Jazz City
Posts: 5,065
Default

Valhalla Vintage Verb in "ambience" or "smooth room" setting, followed by a subtle UBK-1 saturation. It doesn't get any sweeter I might say. But subtlety is the key!
__________________
Windows 10x64 | AMD Ryzen 3700X | ATI FirePro 2100 | Marian Seraph AD2, 4.3.8 | Yamaha Steinberg MR816x
"If I can hear well, then everything I do is right" (Allen Sides)
beingmf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2014, 08:53 AM   #20
Cosmic
Human being with feelings
 
Cosmic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Online
Posts: 4,896
Default

Delay..real short.

Works on everything
__________________
it aint worth a bop,if it dont got that pop
Cosmic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2014, 09:17 AM   #21
whiteaxxxe
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: United States of Europe, Germany, Mönchengladbach
Posts: 2,047
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by beingmf View Post
UBK-1 saturation
thats where taste comes into play. I think that UBK saturation is the ugliest garbage I ever heard. if subtle means wet to zero, then ok, but then I dont need the thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmic View Post
Delay..real short.

Works on everything
right. in the range of Haas delays, maximum 30ms, no feedback. additional advantage beside the room-feel without smearing is the resulting comb-filtering, that occurs more or less. so you can very subtle change the sound in changing the delay length.
whiteaxxxe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2014, 09:47 AM   #22
beingmf
Human being with feelings
 
beingmf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Jazz City
Posts: 5,065
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by whiteaxxxe View Post
thats where taste comes into play. I think that UBK saturation is the ugliest garbage I ever heard. if subtle means wet to zero, then ok, but then I dont need the thing.
Peaks should hardly tick the (virtual) LED. Just shave the sharp transients off and glue the whole thing. When it becomes audible, it might be "ugly garbage" but that's not what it is intended for. To my ears it's so amazing, I can't live without it. And I don't even mix in a "fashionable" or "modern" sound in mind
__________________
Windows 10x64 | AMD Ryzen 3700X | ATI FirePro 2100 | Marian Seraph AD2, 4.3.8 | Yamaha Steinberg MR816x
"If I can hear well, then everything I do is right" (Allen Sides)
beingmf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2014, 05:18 PM   #23
jerome_oneil
Human being with feelings
 
jerome_oneil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Seattle
Posts: 5,635
Default

Cut out at about 250hz. Split the track, pan hard right/left. Detune one side by about 5 cents and delay it by about 20ms. It gets instantly richer.
jerome_oneil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2014, 09:45 AM   #24
alex1073
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 628
Default

O.K., before I forget. Samplicity’s Bricasti M7 is for sure one of the bests IR libraries ever. But, still, there're some just as good: Echochamber IRs - you can still DL them
here (they're at the very beginning together with the SIR plug)). Great stuff, don't miss it. Then
Lexicon PCM 90 Impulse Set, PCM 70 Version 3 Impulse Set and Lexicon 480L Impulse set. That would be it. At least the best I can remember, atm.

Cheers,
Alex
alex1073 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2014, 10:00 AM   #25
Tod
Human being with feelings
 
Tod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Kalispell
Posts: 14,745
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Magicbuss View Post
Try the Small Wooden Room (something like that), it works good for a lot of things including drums.
Tod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2014, 11:57 PM   #26
Jeffsounds
Human being with feelings
 
Jeffsounds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Northeast Michigan
Posts: 3,460
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod View Post
Try the Small Wooden Room (something like that), it works good for a lot of things including drums.
Nice tip, Tod! Thanks! I'm working on a mix now and was having a hard time finding the right drum sound. Works perfectly for this song!
__________________
"TV has become nothing more than a Petri dish where this country grows its idiots." -Dr. John Becker
My First CD On Spotify - Side O' The Highway
Jeffsounds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2014, 02:41 PM   #27
jpanderson80
Human being with feelings
 
jpanderson80's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: near Memphis, TN
Posts: 531
Default

+1 for the Bricasti M7 impulses
I use them for 90% of all reverb needs.

The wooden rooms are good. As are the "studio's"... Studio A, Studio B, etc...
London plate is rich. My first thought was running London Plate into Large Wooden Room to see what that sounds like.
__________________
www.andersonmastering.com
jpanderson80 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2014, 06:01 PM   #28
eddie_bowers
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 28
Default

Ditto on the super short delay (almost imperceptibly short) Mix it in where its barely audible.
When I have to go direct I have even used a chorus with the modulation off and just barely blended in. It does wonders.
I also like Sonic Maximizer in this scenario.
For reverb use a predelay to keep the muddyness down.
eddie_bowers is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:44 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.