Old 12-03-2014, 11:47 AM   #1
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Default Why Cubase ?

I just purchased a Reaper license.

A friend of mine works with Cubase and he payed a lot more than I did for Reaper.

So my question is: What am I missing ? Why pay for Cubase, when there is Reaper doing the job just fine ?

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Old 12-03-2014, 12:01 PM   #2
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Ask your friend.
Then duck....
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Old 12-03-2014, 12:07 PM   #3
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Because Steinberg had to pay the analog console mafiosos to implement VCA faders.
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Old 12-03-2014, 12:39 PM   #4
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EDIT : I apologize about this post. It has quite a bunch of foolish statements and I soon realized that they were completely out of focus. A proper answer can be found on post #72 http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...7&postcount=72 , so I think there is no necessity to go on quoting this and/or answering to it in a rude, unfriendly manner when it doesn´t really represent my current thinking and I´ve made all the necessary apologies. I´ll leave it, though, in a minimal size, because I think there is no need to hide my mistakes if I could really learn from them...


Many highly subjective opinions in the audio forums´ world would point, doubtlessly, to its MIDI abilities. While it is true that it has a bunch of neat features in that department, it also has its weak points as any other program. Having been a pioneer in the MIDI-sequencing field since the end of the 80´s, many people seems to think that MIDI work can only be properly done in the Cubase way, which of course it´s not true (or, at least, it´s a completely subjective appreciation). Regarding the price, it´s not a mistery. Steinberg is a division of Yamaha, so their corporate vision leads them to all kind of nasty corporate practices including bloating, overpricing, horrible copy-protection system, etc.

I work mostly with heavy duty MIDI, and even owning Cubase 7.5 I can say that I vastly prefer the integration of Sibelius (*), Reaper and Bidule, a combo with which I can do almost anything that can be done with Cubase, with the plus of an immensely greater freedom, stability and many other things. Others will say the opposite, so in the end each one must find its own affinity. The bad thing about Cubase is that their "demo" version is an horrendously crippled piece of a program, so you cannot really try their best goodies.

Others may chime in to talk about the audio side of it...

(*) Well, I have to admit that Sibelius is another bloated, corporative product, but there are not so many options (as powerful, at least) in the score notation field.

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Old 12-03-2014, 01:08 PM   #5
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Quote:
... a combo with which I can do almost anything that can be done with Cubase ...
the keyword here is "almost".

I am coming from Steinberg 12, the predecessor of Cubase, at the times only avalilable for Ataris (for there were only Ataris and Amigas capable of doing such things, MIDI was invented only 3 or 4 years before).

so Cubase then was groundbreaking in every aspect regarding making music with computers. groundbreaking. at that time until the late 90s of the last century Cubase was MIDI. it was an equation.

reasons for that were that Cubase had the complete MIDI implementation chart inside. complete. there was nothing defined in MIDI, what you couldnt work with in the editors. sysex-editors, rpn- and nrpn-editors could easily (if you knew what you were doing) prgrammed within Cubase by the user.

until today there is no program for work with MIDI that rivals Cubase Atari 3.1, nothing, nada, null.

Steinberg made audio available and workable with on computers in broader range with Cubase Atari Falcon. a real audio workstation in the consumer market. Steinberg invented the idea of plugins and brought us the VST-standard. have a look at the consequences of that and think about what and where we were without Steinberg Cubase.

all the alternatives to Cubase were ridiculous compared to Cubase. at any given point within Cubase you can see the experience. its not for nothing or based on marketing that Cubase is a flagship since 30 years. that would not work.

and then they were bought by Yamaha. big-company-bashing is cheap n easy, when you dont look at it close. Yamaha has invented a hell of a lot of things we like so much today. and that they can do because 30% of the companys result in money goes in basic scientific research. out came virtual synthesis, fm synthesis, Yamaha discovered the principle of impulse responses. Yamaha is a big company, and a big science research institute. for scientific research you need a lot of money. which other big company beside Yamaha does that??? they dont take the money an run ... they research. and their 30% for research is a lot of money. whole lotta money.

so Steinberg joining Yamaha makes absolute sense. for me as a consumer it makes sense. now you can always find a lot of things to ramble about. the bigger the thing the more you will find. and most of it is subjective. let it be explained to you from people that use Steinberg and Yamaha products since 30 years or so. they know, you dont know.

so Cubase is hell of a program, otherwise it wouldnt have survived so many changes in computer-based music-production. thats for sure. and its for sure, that everything that is big is easily bashed on, simple and primitive, and most of the time the only argument is that it is big. if its big, bash it. (its the same as with big government bashing ... cheap and easy and everybody applauds. wow ... great. :-(()

so, take a deep look at Cubase and then you can talk. if someone chosses Cubase over Reaper I can understand that. and I can understand the opposite, like me. I have changed to reaper 6 months ago. but not because Cubase is bad, no way. so I dont think you should bash Cubase/Steinberg because you think all the Reaper-users will agree with you. big fail on your side, I think.
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Old 12-03-2014, 01:43 PM   #6
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Some proper answers to the harsh replies my initial post aroused can be found in the editing of the post above (#4, http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...12&postcount=4) and specially here :http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...7&postcount=72


- I do have of course taken that deep look at Cubase and know well it´s MIDI goodies. My preferences are, needless to say, highly subjective, as anything in this little forum world.

- I don´t pretend in any way to "bash" it but to confirm that there is a valid MIDI life outside of Cubase.

- I don´t say those things about Yamaha because they are "big", but because one can have the - again, subjective - impression that some things could also be done in other ways.

- I don´t speak about others´ "failures".

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Old 12-03-2014, 01:48 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fex View Post
Ask your friend.
Then duck....
We're having duck after he asks. Great!
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Old 12-03-2014, 02:17 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whiteaxxxe View Post
...let it be explained to you from people that use Steinberg and Yamaha products since 30 years or so. they know, you dont know... (bold is mine)

...and its for sure, that everything that is big is easily bashed on, simple and primitive, and most of the time the only argument is that it is big. if its big, bash it. (its the same as with big government bashing ... cheap and easy and everybody applauds. wow ... great. :-(()

...so, take a deep look at Cubase and then you can talk...

...so I dont think you should bash Cubase/Steinberg because you think all the Reaper-users will agree with you. big fail on your side, I think.

By the way, haven´t I seen this guy in other threads, trolling in a similar vein?
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Old 12-03-2014, 02:21 PM   #9
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He's not trolling, he's just opinionated. And he's very often right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by whiteaxxxe View Post
until today there is no program for work with MIDI that rivals Cubase Atari 3.1, nothing, nada, null.
True, dat....
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Old 12-03-2014, 02:31 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Fex View Post
He's not trolling, he's just opinionated. And he's very often right.
True, dat....
Is he preparing the duck? I'm getting hungry.
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Old 12-03-2014, 02:41 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fex View Post
He's not trolling, he's just opinionated. And he's very often right.
True, dat....
We´re talking about completely different things. Nobody is denying his Cubase apology, my quote above is clear.
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Old 12-03-2014, 02:51 PM   #12
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I knew this thread would be entertaining but i didn't know it came with free duck.

A minor observation: Most who quack on about Cubase have no real clue of it's depth, even if you completely exclude midi. An honest to goodness long time Cubase user, one who knows it's full capability, can always spot the pretenders because their focus is usually on the most typical. Cubase does things with it's linear timeline for example that Reaper can't even fathom.

Do I really have to make that very long list? For those who choose it, it's worth every penny.

And now it has VCA's. (Duck!)
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Old 12-03-2014, 02:57 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
but i didn't know it came with free duck.
Well apparently not!
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Old 12-03-2014, 03:11 PM   #14
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Shit, no duck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
A friend of mine works with Cubase and he payed a lot more than I did for Reaper.
Being more serious, there's one of the two following two things going on with your friend...

1. He fully understands the total capability of the app and will take advantage of it and get his money's worth. You simply can't get everything Cubase has for $60, anywhere.

2. Or he's like some others, he bought way more than he actually needs or will ever use because he could afford it and just wanted it.
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Old 12-03-2014, 03:20 PM   #15
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Well, Lawrence, you should know I´m not talking about Cubase anymore, I´m referring to unnecessary harshness.
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Old 12-03-2014, 03:26 PM   #16
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Good answer, Lawrence.

Are we having Peking, or à l'Orange?
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Old 12-03-2014, 06:26 PM   #17
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I'm actually glad that Yamaha got involved. I hope it's for the better.
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Old 12-03-2014, 06:40 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
You simply can't get everything Cubase has for $60
I got Cubase for ~$60
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Old 12-03-2014, 09:39 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
What am I missing ?
A lot of bundled plugins and a couple of VSTi's. A different workflow. Less customization. Better MIDI.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
Why pay for Cubase, when there is Reaper doing the job just fine ?
That's the point exactly! Cubase advertises more than Reaper. Of course they can, they charge 8x the price. They have a longer and better known track record. And people keep upgrading because they don't want the learning curve of a new DAW.

Honestly, before 6 or so months ago, I had never even heard of Reaper. I found it when thinking of upgrading to a newer Cubase than SX2. I ended up buying 7 Elements because I was afraid to learn how to use a new DAW. After a very short time I realized that Elements is too crippled for me, but the upgrade price to full was so steep that I decided to give Reaper an honest try. It didn't take long for me to decide it was worth way more than I'd spent on Cubase Elements, so $60 was a no brainer. Especially after the way Steinberg handled the 7.5 update...I mean upgrade. Customers were required to pay $150 for it. That was offensive to me.

I think Cubase is an excellent product. But, for amateur/hobbyists the cost just doesn't seem justifiable. There are many free plugins and VSTi's that rival or best the bundled ones that come with Cubase. So, to say it's worth an extra $440 on that basis alone is nonsense. You also need to use a dongle which I am personally against.

Steinberg was acquired by Yamaha because Yamaha knew they needed to integrate into the computer world with the hardware products they made. And, Steinberg knew they had a potential to sell hardware tailored to their software. So, it was a good marriage for both. Why reinvent the wheel? I don't think Yamaha had anything to do with Steinberg's copy protection practices. You needed a dongle with SX2 which was way before the acquisition of Steinberg by Yamaha. And I phrase it that way because I'm pretty sure that Yamaha owns Steinberg as opposed to an equal partnership merger.

Now that I'm starting to get better doing things the Reaper way I have dropped Cubase altogether. I no longer recommend Cubase even though I've used it for over a decade. I promote Reaper because the circles of people I know can't really afford a $500 DAW. And, most of them will never scratch the surface of the full potential that Reaper and other pro DAWs offer. Many are youths with little to no money. An average parent can afford to pay $60 for their kid to start learning about making and recording music on a computer with Reaper.

So tell your other friends (not the one who already shelled out for Cubase) to spend $60 on Reaper and use the other $440 to get better quality interfaces, monitors, room treatment, microphones, headphones, controllers, or whatever other real world items that will help them improve their craft. Possibly, even plugins.
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Old 12-04-2014, 01:39 AM   #20
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I ran Cubase Elements 7 passed summer. Also looking closely going for the upgrade campaign in August to C7.5.

Pro Cubase:
Everything works - including my Waves plugins.
Proper support exist

Con Cubase:
Really old in it's structure - and track must go in certain folders created by Steinberg.
Naming of things are really odd - does not follow industry standard.
Pay for a lot of stuff that I will never use, like Project Manager, chord tracks.
Maintenance is not better than any other daw - bugs remain over major versions - why pay so much more.

Cubase 8 - nothing much is corrected as I see it. Performance boost though seems like a good improvement.

Pro Reaper:
Never felt so free as in Reaper, and in full control.
Good performance.
Open interface for customizing themes, SWS actions etc.
Built in script/compiler for own plugins.

Con Reaper:
Bugs remains over years and years
Reported bugs not acknowledged
Major vendor like Waves is not officially supported - and some plugins simply does not work and draw correctly
No proper support from vendor if really needing it
Never expiring trial - means paying for other users

So Reaper is not my final destination.
Cannot trust it for when my income relies on daw working - nowhere I can turn to if really in trouble.

So I'm looking around....
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Old 12-04-2014, 02:26 AM   #21
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Heads up guys it is now called Cubase pro 8 no longer 7.5

A lot have been said about how expensive Cubase is. I think we all have to admit that Cubase is probably the most advanced software out there with nuendo.

There are also producers that earn quite a bit of money and would gladly pay the price.

how ever if you are upgrading then the price is not to costly, plus if you are a student you will get it at a low student price,

please remember while many of us maybe do music for a hobby there are also many that do it for a living and are earning quite a bit, in saying that for what Cubase offers its well worth the price there asking and probably under priced

I stopped at Cubase 5 and I am still blown away with what it can do.

the thing that let Cubase down is its bugs and service.

but I think Cubase joining with Yamaha bugs should be less, and as I have been reading in some post with Yamaha being so much into research Cubase has the potential of world domination....... ok maybe I over cooked it there.

The new stuff in Cubase 8 is pretty staggering you really need to look at where the DAW is going and it looks like Cubase is leading the way into the future.
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Old 12-04-2014, 02:36 AM   #22
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I am sure you get professional results with Cubase, but as for ranking, I saw Logic always had a better ranking, and we all know that Protools is the daw you will find in most professional studios.
I do not intend to say Logic is better than Cubase, but when I read about a good production it´s PT in most cases, sometimes Logic
(I do not refer to any stupid DJ production!).

So, why Cubass ? !

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Old 12-04-2014, 02:38 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fex View Post
Ask your friend.
Then duck....
But what will a duck know about Cubase?

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Old 12-04-2014, 05:32 AM   #24
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Default money

All Steinberg's money takes away marketing and sales department
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Old 12-04-2014, 05:52 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkStar View Post
But what will a duck know about Cubase?

About as much as some in this thread.

Quote:
but I think Cubase joining with Yamaha bugs should be less
Yammy bought Steinberg in 2005, before Reaper even existed.

Quote:
But, for amateur/hobbyists the cost just doesn't seem justifiable.
Which is why they have multiple versions at different prices.

Quote:
because the circles of people I know can't really afford a $500 DAW.
So they should stop acting like spoiled children and stop wanting more than they can afford. Cubase has a $99 version that probably does all they need functionally. They just can't get on the net and brag about features with the $99 version even though the $99 versions sequencer is still way better than most.

Spoiled and entitled children want it all, for almost no money. Good luck with that.

Quote:
So, to say it's worth an extra $440 on that basis alone [instruments] is nonsense.
It would be, if anyone actually ever said that, which nobody has. It's worth the extra $ to some for multiple other reasons that people justifying their own purchases seem to not to be able to actually ever see, like having built in scoring, 5-6 discreet midi editors, logical editing, a tempo and time signature system that actually works in all cases and some lower level functions that don't exist in $60 products like surround panners built in on every channel and an actual solo system that solos anything without muting stuff and an automation system that makes sense... and does things like fill ranges... you know... stuff that Reaper and S1 cannot do at all without some really big workarounds.

But no pro needs any of that stuff. They just need Python so they can make cool scripts (or rather, wait for other people to make them) and a bunch of themes so they can feel cool looking at the screen while they make beats.

Quote:
Customers were required to pay $150 for it.
False. The 7 to 7.5 update was $50.

Duck!

Last edited by Lawrence; 12-04-2014 at 06:44 AM.
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Old 12-04-2014, 06:24 AM   #26
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I started out with Cubase/Nuendo back in the day and enjoyed it. Some of my friends love Cubase and swear by it.

Then I discovered DP in version 5. Been through Logic 8/9 for a short period.
But I always came back to DP. Been with REAPER since 2011 (Ver. 4).

Now I use DP8 and REAPER. And use each depending on my mood.
85% of my recordings are drums so just Reaper would do the job perfectly but there's something about DP that just feels good and like home to me.
Can't decide just on one of them. Don't know why! But then again, I don't have to.

cheers
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Old 12-04-2014, 06:29 AM   #27
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Quote:
Some of my friends love Cubase and swear by it.
I'm not a fan of it anymore, I stopped using it a few years back and I never regretted that decision. But I'm not one of those delusional people who need to continually pretend like what I prefer now is as functional as Cubase when it's clearly not.

I can be happy while living in the real world.

Cubase is a monster of an audio workstation. That's an easily verifyable fact. Easily arguably the most complete audio production workstation on the market. I simply don't need everything it brings to the table. I'm all good with S1 and Reaper... but for every child like "can do" cherry pick I could list in S1 or Reaper that Cubase can't do I can find 5+ in Cubase... which usually evokes a...

"Meh, I don't need that".

... from people who absolutely must always believe whatever they love is the literal best thing ever to be happy.

My fave daw doesn't even have a midi list editor or midi plugins yet. I still love it though.

Last edited by Lawrence; 12-04-2014 at 06:51 AM.
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Old 12-04-2014, 06:58 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkStar View Post
But what will a duck know about Cubase?
It's definitely possible to do ducking in Cubase.
Therefore, Cubase must have ducks in it.
Ducks in that trade would be quite expert, I think.
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Old 12-04-2014, 07:05 AM   #29
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Gotta love the daw wars where every major release starts threads about why what we love kicks the ass of everything else.

Prediction: (no need to be a swami to predict this one)

S1 v3 will release and the usual suspects will line up to tell us all - again, for the 100th time - "why they won't be switching".

Watch.
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Old 12-04-2014, 07:08 AM   #30
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oh... and as much as I love DP, its a bit of a CPU hog! But it has to be one of the deepest, if not the deepest DAW out there.
Reaper always wowed me with its performance and stability. I never get the Mac beach balls with Reaper. I get quite a few with DP8.
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Old 12-04-2014, 07:11 AM   #31
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I could never "get on" with the DP demo. The product always really intrigued me but by the time it hit Windows I was too set in my ways to learn such a deep application.

30 days is probably not enough time to really get on with DP unless you use it every day and live in the manual. It's automation versions and mix versions system is pretty great though.

They maybe need to do like Pyramix, make the demo not time out and just restrict it, so you have time to really learn it. It's kinda like Reaper in that regard, a lot of it's methodologies are not comparable to other systems and you have to think about things differently.

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Old 12-04-2014, 07:27 AM   #32
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Yeah, I've been using DP for years and don't know or use half of its functions. Its sooooo deep and has many unique functions!
But its a DAW that practically does everything and comes with very high quality plugins! It lacks Virtual Instruments but almost everyone has the 3rd party stuff anyway.
In my opinion, its one of the "Rolls Royce" DAWs available today.
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Old 12-04-2014, 07:45 AM   #33
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I've always felt that way about it, just seeing it around.

I think their challenge for getting new users is getting people to learn it, it's not anything you can just launch and intuitively get on with quickly, it requires a good bit of study imo... the workflow and methods, some of which are really powerful, like "chunks".

We live in a Burger King world where most really don't have the patience for that, which is why you never see things like DP or Pyramix talked about on KVR and Gearslutz. I mean, most modern users who jump from daw to daw don't even fully take the time to learn the stuff they already use.
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Old 12-04-2014, 07:57 AM   #34
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I've always felt that way about it, just seeing it around.

I think their challenge for getting new users is getting people to learn it, it's not anything you can just launch and intuitively get on with quickly, it requires a good bit of study imo... the workflow and methods, some of which are really powerful, like "chunks".
I agree!

I have a friend of mine who used PT and Cubase for many years. I tried to push DP on him. He tried it and he was having a tough time to learn it.
He said it was not very intuitive and that it was for "sound engineers" for being/looking so advanced. He even used a sweating smiley to describe it!
And this is a guy who worked in pro studios for years!

But DP is a 1st class DAW. No doubt about it. Many professionals use it. More than it is known.
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Old 12-04-2014, 09:16 AM   #35
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Yeah, I've been using DP for years and don't know or use half of its functions. Its sooooo deep and has many unique functions!
But its a DAW that practically does everything and comes with very high quality plugins! It lacks Virtual Instruments but almost everyone has the 3rd party stuff anyway.
In my opinion, its one of the "Rolls Royce" DAWs available today.
Do you know about any that use Windows version?
Are most stuff fixed now in 8.07, or?

And Waves stuff does not list DP yet for supported hosts(VST) - that worries me a bit.

If they have a return policy of some kind I will run it again. Ran 8.04 for Windows and had some issues with plugins mostly.

A bit unorthodox in workflow at first glance, but willing to spend time with it.

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Old 12-04-2014, 10:32 AM   #36
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But DP is a 1st class DAW. No doubt about it. Many professionals use it. More than it is known.
On paper, feature wise, it stacks up very well with anything.

I can understand why those guys at MOTU Nation love it so much, but coming into it brand new at the current version is something different from kinda growing up with it, the learning curve. It's probably hard for them to view it that particular way because they already know how it works.

It confused the hell outta me initially and I don't consider myself an idiot (although many others may ).

It all gets ... multiplied ... because not only is the learning curve not small, but you're continually looking at methods that are really different, methods you don't understand yet. I think if I'd got on board early on I'd probably love it. I couldn't even figure out how to load a VST instrument without looking at the manual.

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Old 12-04-2014, 11:03 AM   #37
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I've always had respect for MOTU and am glad that DP is available for Windows now. I've still got my eye on it. I wish the windows version had come out sooner.

But I'm all in with Reaper now so by the time I really get comfortable with it I probably won't be interested in DP anymore.

I'm already starting to use Studio One less. (But I sure love that mastering section! )
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Old 12-04-2014, 11:14 AM   #38
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That's a small part of the appeal of getting on board with a new app like Reaper was or like S1 was, that it's easy to learn because there's not very much there yet and you can consume the new stuff as it shows up.

Later on at version 9 or whatever it will look the same to a newbie, more difficult to learn, there will be a lot more stuff there and many more pages in the manual.

It's all relative.

Cubase VST 5 was easy to learn. Cubase 7, maybe not so easy if you want to learn all of it. The manual has to be over 1000 pages by now and it has a kazillion preferences.

Last edited by Lawrence; 12-04-2014 at 11:19 AM.
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Old 12-04-2014, 12:34 PM   #39
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Allright, it was wrong to use such terms as "nasty corporate practices", "horrendously crippled", etc. in my first post. It was also misleading, among other things, to mix Yamaha´s ownership with the dongle question, which of course comes from old. I ended up expressing my personal preferences as if they were some kind of bashing on Cubase.

I apologize about that.
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Old 12-04-2014, 01:05 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Nip View Post
Do you know about any that use Windows version?
Are most stuff fixed now in 8.07, or?

And Waves stuff does not list DP yet for supported hosts(VST) - that worries me a bit.

If they have a return policy of some kind I will run it again. Ran 8.04 for Windows and had some issues with plugins mostly.

A bit unorthodox in workflow at first glance, but willing to spend time with it.

Thanks.
Nope. The very few I know personally that use DP are on Mac.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
On paper, feature wise, it stacks up very well with anything.

I can understand why those guys at MOTU Nation love it so much, but coming into it brand new at the current version is something different from kinda growing up with it, the learning curve. It's probably hard for them to view it that particular way because they already know how it works.

It confused the hell outta me initially and I don't consider myself an idiot (although many others may ).

It all gets ... multiplied ... because not only is the learning curve not small, but you're continually looking at methods that are really different, methods you don't understand yet. I think if I'd got on board early on I'd probably love it. I couldn't even figure out how to load a VST instrument without looking at the manual.
I confess that when I looked at DP for the first time I was overwhelmed just with the GUI. So many little details, etc... but the more I used it.. the more I "got it".
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