M/S processing

[Chris_P_Critter]

I've done a little reading on this method, and it sounds like something I want to try in my productions. Although I will admit, what I have read is somewhat confusing to me (I am more of a 'hands on' versus RTFM kind of guy ).

So, this is a general "How do YOU work with M/S processing?" thread.

Would be interested in hearing why you use this method, what you're able to accomplish, the sound benefits, etc. etc. Plug-in recommendations and routing recommendations are also welcome.

Any sound samples (with and without M/S processing is also helpful).

In summary: ima compleet newb 2 tha M/S shizzle.

[darjama]

method 1. group track containg (A)mid track, (B)side track panned 100% left, and (C) copy of side track phase reversed panned 100% right. Rocket or blockfish compression added to the group

method 2. group track containing (A)mid track panned 100% right, (B)side track panned 100% left. Endorphin plugin ( http://www.digitalfishphones.com/mai...em=2&subItem=3 ) to manage separate compression of mid and side, high and low.

Why I use it: when I want a sound to have a broad stereo image, but still be clear and not phasey in mono. I've used it on acoustic and rhythm guitar tracks mostly.

Sorry, no samples at the moment.

[Gravelle]

You can do it by routing alone:


Route Chanel 1/2 (select mono) --> to a new track (Mid)

To Another Track (Side):

Route Chanel 1 Pan to left
Route Chanel 2 Invert phase & Pan to left
Route Chanel 1 Invert phase & Pan to right
Route Chanel 2 Pan to right

[Staccato]

Originally Posted by Chris_P_Critter

I've done a little reading on this method, and it sounds like something I want to try in my productions. Although I will admit, what I have read is somewhat confusing to me (I am more of a 'hands on' versus RTFM kind of guy ).

So, this is a general "How do YOU work with M/S processing?" thread.

Would be interested in hearing why you use this method, what you're able to accomplish, the sound benefits, etc. etc. Plug-in recommendations and routing recommendations are also welcome.

Any sound samples (with and without M/S processing is also helpful).

In summary: ima compleet newb 2 tha M/S shizzle.

Want some candy little girl?

I'm using Ozone 4, with M/S processing in several modules, it opens up a whole new world.

[sinkmusic]

- I sometimes use a M/S plugin to give more side signal to a reverb bus, it can make the whole mix less obstrusive.
- It can also be handy in a specific freq range, if you don't want to deal with an eq in case of overlapping freq range, dealing with M/S can help to fix possible issues.
- It is a perfect weapon to give some drums more punch, or on the opposite to add "room" sound for special effect, etc.
- If you have to cut one of your track on acetate (vinyl), you have to have your bass sound in mono, so, in such a case, multiband M/S can also be a must-have

I often use thr33some for that, as it is triple band, and allows to use 3 methods of widening.

[Chris_P_Critter]

Good suggestions guys.

Why do you guys invert the phase in certain cases?

The reason I ask is I am having issues adding depth to my most recent recording - thinking this may be a way to widen things, and give all of the pieces a little more space to breathe.

Sink - Also, I had the thought this morning to use this on my reverb buss to add a super wide "roomy" effect.

[Chris_P_Critter]

Originally Posted by Staccato

Want some candy little girl?

I'm using Ozone 4, with M/S processing in several modules, it opens up a whole new world.

I have played with Ozone 3 for a bit, and while it's a nice plugin, I am not overly impressed. I've heard that Ozone 4 is a serious improvement though - may have to check it out.

You seem to be liking the results!

[Staccato]

One way to really clean up the mix is to EQ the SIDE independantly, particularly the lows from the SIDE, reducing the lows there really enhances the stereo image, makes it more coherent. Also, EQ the highs (find the range and boost) on the SIDE gets that top-air on the reverb that is sometimes (read, often) elusive.

EQ the MID independantly to fatten up or warm up the Bass, Kick, Vocal.

I've used Ozone3 a long time, and Ozone4 is definitely a great improvement, but the EQ and dynamics has always been very good. The M/S processing on a bunch of modules in Ozone4 can get into trouble very quickly, so it is still a matter of identifying the problem compared to the desired results, and creating a solution, and dialing it in.

Mid/Side solutions can be a very striking improvement.

[Chris_P_Critter]

Originally Posted by Staccato

One way to really clean up the mix is to EQ the SIDE independantly, particularly the lows from the SIDE, reducing the lows there really enhances the stereo image, makes it more coherent. Also, EQ the highs (find the range and boost) on the SIDE gets that top-air on the reverb that is sometimes (read, often) elusive.

EQ the MID independantly to fatten up or warm up the Bass, Kick, Vocal.

I've used Ozone3 a long time, and Ozone4 is definitely a great improvement, but the EQ and dynamics has always been very good. The M/S processing on a bunch of modules in Ozone4 can get into trouble very quickly, so it is still a matter of identifying the problem compared to the desired results, and creating a solution, and dialing it in.

Mid/Side solutions can be a very striking improvement.

Nice man - thank you very much for the suggestions!!! WIll need to do some experimenting!!!

[politcat]

Blue Cat's free Gain Suite has an m/s plugin that encodes/decodes inline. it includes pan so you can move the mid wherever you want. cool

http://www.bluecataudio.com/Products/Product_GainSuite/

checkout the link on that page on mid-side processing

voxengo's free m/s plugin encodes/decodes inline too. it also has separate modes so that you can put something like an eq or comp in between 2 instances

http://www.voxengo.com/product/msed/

[Chris_P_Critter]

Originally Posted by politcat

Blue Cat's free Gain Suite has an m/s plugin that encodes/decodes inline. it includes pan so you can move the mid wherever you want. cool

http://www.bluecataudio.com/Products/Product_GainSuite/

checkout the link on that page on mid-side processing

voxengo's free m/s plugin encodes/decodes inline too. it also has separate modes so that you can put something like an eq or comp in between 2 instances

http://www.voxengo.com/product/msed/

NICE - I thought the Voxengo plug was payware!! EXCELLENT!!

Thanks man!!

[Jae.Thomas]

a search would yield this thread

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.p...ighlight=M%2FS

can never have enough info about this tho

hope its of some help, friend

[Chris_P_Critter]

Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill

a search would yield this thread

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.p...ighlight=M%2FS

can never have enough info about this tho

hope its of some help, friend

J - Thanks man - Still wrapping my head around this stuff. So much info out there, and have to look into the thread above.

I agree - You can never have too much info!!!!!!

[drillbit]

It is fun to play with, but it's a bit of a buzz word at the moment (parallel compression was the old trend). I think it's important to remember that if you are using it in mastering you are stuffing with your stereo field (especially with compression). I prefer to do it on groups.

I think it is better to fix/enhance at the source track/group than do a broad blanket effect. For example, if you sub-cut the side channels you will thin out all your reverbs and delays and lost a bit of warmth. Sure do it for the bass and drums, but not the reverb buss.

Well,that's my vibe on it.

[Chris_P_Critter]

Originally Posted by drillbit

It is fun to play with, but it's a bit of a buzz word at the moment (parallel compression was the old trend). I think it's important to remember that if you are using it in mastering you are stuffing with your stereo field (especially with compression). I prefer to do it on groups.

I think it is better to fix/enhance at the source track/group than do a broad blanket effect. For example, if you sub-cut the side channels you will thin out all your reverbs and delays and lost a bit of warmth. Sure do it for the bass and drums, but not the reverb buss.

Well,that's my vibe on it.

I hear you about the "buzz" - doing a search for "m/s Processing" turns out a zillion hits.

I am looking at this merely as a spacial effect for guitars. I record direct, but find that I am losing depth, so a slightly wider stereo image could help.

Also - I want to do it because everyone else does

[Panatrope]

While this thread is talking about an "M-S" processing approach, it may be helpful to take a reminder as to where it came from and why.

Before stereo there was mono - not much to go wrong. Point one mic and record or transmit. Add a second mic and problems come. Using spaced mics as was the initial approach, bad placement could lead to "hole in the middle". Accidental polarity reversal in one channel could lead to the centre disappearing when listening in mono. When there were no stereo program lines, there could be big differences between two mono channels combined to make a stereo channel. A big focus was mono compatibility.

TV sound or FM radio was mono, and most people had mono TV sets. So they had to ensure a good mono signal. So sound was transmitted with the compatible 'mono' component (L+R) on the original channel, and the 'stereo' or difference component (L-R) on the second channel or sub-carrier. No matter what problems there might have been with the stereo channel, the mono would still sound OK. For stereo, on reception you would add the two signals (L+R)+( L-R) to get the left channel and subtract the sub-carrier (L+R)-(L-R) to get the right channel. Differences between signal paths can be less important in a decoded M-S signal.

In TV audio, you could get an M-S signal directly (say from the boom mic) by putting a fig-8 mic up with the normal cardioid mic, across the axis of the cardioid mic. The M mic would give the mono people the same sound, and the S mic when added and subtracted would give the left and right (or width) information.

For micing, compared with spaced micing, M-S favours the centre image (in spaced mics this is a 'phantom' image derived from two mics, either spaced or X-Y, where the subject is 'off-axis' to both mics). M-S gives more precise location information; spaced mics give a better sense of 'spaciousness'. Processing the M- and S- channels separately - different EQ, different reverb - can still maintain control over having a great image of the actual sound, but changing the 'space' around it.

In the classical field, where I work, many musicians prefer the sound of M-S, because it maintains the sound of their instrument and its placement, while still giving a great picture of its environment. It can prove a useful tool both in recording and processing.

[Chris_P_Critter]

Very interesting - Makes perfect sense too.

PS - Welcome to the forums!

[Bubbagump]

Digging this up again... does anyone have bright ideas as to how to compress the M and S separately in a single stereo bus? The problem is finding a compressor that can only compress a R or L signal. The encode/decode is pretty straight forward. I play with so much subtle delay and hard pans in my mixes, it would be nice to squish the sides to bring it up a bit or EQ to clean up muck at times.

[RRokkenAudio]

Have you tried bootsy's plugs:

http://www.vstplanet.com/Effects/Dynamic2.htm

Just downloaded this one, havent used it yet

Rob.

[pipelineaudio]

bubba, just type "kanaka" in the reaper filter list. You can stick that in front of reacomp then the other one after reacomp, save as chain

[sinkmusic]

Couldn't DeLaMancha SideArm do what you want ?
Or BlueCat DYnamics ?