Old 02-09-2015, 12:29 PM   #1
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Default Why the 100 Hz...?

A thing that has always puzzled me, but that I have not dared to ask before:

CD sampling is at 44 100 Hz, right? But why the extra 100 Hz? Would 44 kHz not have been good enough? After all, it allows to capture frequencies up to 22 kHz, and very few (*very*few*) people hear anything up there. So... why the 100 Hz...?
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Old 02-09-2015, 12:37 PM   #2
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/44,100_Hz
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Old 02-09-2015, 12:42 PM   #3
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Boy, I think i can start with some faint memories from the 80s. I think it has something to do with videospecs. The mastering was done with Sony PCM1630 Videomachines and video lines, frame rate and bits per line dictated the Samplingfrequency.
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Old 02-09-2015, 12:45 PM   #4
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According to a different article at Wikipedia, 44100/16 was...

"Originally chosen by Sony because it could be recorded on modified video equipment running at either 25 frames per second (PAL) or 30 frame/s (using an NTSC monochrome video recorder) and cover the 20 kHz bandwidth thought necessary to match professional analog recording equipment of the time."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samplin..._processing%29

There may be other reasons too, but I haven't looked any farther.

:-Don
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Old 02-09-2015, 12:55 PM   #5
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As usual, it's SONY's fault. But let's not forget, the old BETA tapes were so much better than VHS ... meaning SONY gets one good idea and it gets crushed by the hoards.
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Old 02-09-2015, 03:10 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HobbyCore View Post
Ah! Of course... Thanks.

And, yes, it certainly has something to do with video specs:

Code:
It is simplest if the same number of lines are used in each field, and,
crucially, it was decided that a sample rate that could be used on both
NTSC (monochrome) and PAL equipment. Since NTSC has a field rate of 60
Hz, and PAL has a field rate of 50 Hz, their least common multiple is 
300 Hz, and with 3 samples per line, this yields a sample rate that is
a multiple of 900 Hz. For NTSC the sample rate is 5m × 60 × 3, where 5m
is the number of active lines per field, which must be a multiple of 5
(the rest used for synchronization), and for PAL the sample rate is 6n
× 50 × 3, where 6n is the number of active lines per field, which must
be a multiple of 6. The sampling rates that satisfy these requirements
– at least 40 kHz (so can encode 20 kHz sounds), no more than 46.875
kHz (so require no more than 3 samples per line in PAL), and a multiple
of 900 Hz (so can be encoded in NTSC and PAL) are thus 40.5, 41.4,
42.3, 43.2, 44.1, 45, 45.9, and 46.8 kHz. The lower ones are eliminated
due to low-pass filters requiring a transition band, while the higher
ones are eliminated due to some lines being required for vertical
blanking interval; 44.1 kHz was the higher usable rate, and was
eventually chosen.
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Old 02-09-2015, 04:47 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Telenator View Post
As usual, it's SONY's fault. But let's not forget, the old BETA tapes were so much better than VHS ... meaning SONY gets one good idea and it gets crushed by the hoards.

Don't forget, they held out for 16-bit when others said only 14-bit was required. Imagine the sample-rate/ bit-depth threads if that had been the CD standard



>
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Old 02-09-2015, 07:16 PM   #8
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Sony has been a pretty amazing firm when you think about it.
They have done lots of development over the years.

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Old 02-09-2015, 08:46 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grinder View Post
Sony has been a pretty amazing firm when you think about it.
They have done lots of development over the years.
Indeed. In fact, the S/Pdif protocol many of us use actually stands for Sony/Philips Digital Interconnect Format.

Philips are also another company that have been pivotal in the digital revolution. They were pioneers in the development of the Compact Disc format. I still have a first generation Philips CD player here.
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Old 02-09-2015, 09:15 PM   #10
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It Hz so good it can't be bad?
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Old 02-09-2015, 10:05 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Telenator View Post
As usual, it's SONY's fault. But let's not forget, the old BETA tapes were so much better than VHS ... meaning SONY gets one good idea and it gets crushed by the hoards.
yeah betamax was fucking brilliant.

I had a copy of Live In Pompei and Quadrophenia both on betamax.
The sound was fantastic.

I threw them all in a skip in 1992
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Last edited by Cosmic; 02-09-2015 at 11:13 PM.
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Old 02-09-2015, 11:11 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fabian View Post
Ah! Of course... Thanks.

And, yes, it certainly has something to do with video specs:

Code:
It is simplest if the same number of lines are used in each field, and,
crucially, it was decided that a sample rate that could be used on both
NTSC (monochrome) and PAL equipment. Since NTSC has a field rate of 60
Hz, and PAL has a field rate of 50 Hz, their least common multiple is 
300 Hz, and with 3 samples per line, this yields a sample rate that is
a multiple of 900 Hz. For NTSC the sample rate is 5m × 60 × 3, where 5m
is the number of active lines per field, which must be a multiple of 5
(the rest used for synchronization), and for PAL the sample rate is 6n
× 50 × 3, where 6n is the number of active lines per field, which must
be a multiple of 6. The sampling rates that satisfy these requirements
– at least 40 kHz (so can encode 20 kHz sounds), no more than 46.875
kHz (so require no more than 3 samples per line in PAL), and a multiple
of 900 Hz (so can be encoded in NTSC and PAL) are thus 40.5, 41.4,
42.3, 43.2, 44.1, 45, 45.9, and 46.8 kHz. The lower ones are eliminated
due to low-pass filters requiring a transition band, while the higher
ones are eliminated due to some lines being required for vertical
blanking interval; 44.1 kHz was the higher usable rate, and was
eventually chosen.
I am so glad I know all that now.

I mean not glad. I am not glad.
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Old 02-09-2015, 11:19 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fabian View Post
Ah! Of course... Thanks.

And, yes, it certainly has something to do with video specs:

Code:
It is simplest if the same number of lines are used in each field, and,
crucially, it was decided that a sample rate that could be used on both
NTSC (monochrome) and PAL equipment. Since NTSC has a field rate of 60
Hz, and PAL has a field rate of 50 Hz, their least common multiple is 
300 Hz, and with 3 samples per line, this yields a sample rate that is
a multiple of 900 Hz. For NTSC the sample rate is 5m × 60 × 3, where 5m
is the number of active lines per field, which must be a multiple of 5
(the rest used for synchronization), and for PAL the sample rate is 6n
× 50 × 3, where 6n is the number of active lines per field, which must
be a multiple of 6. The sampling rates that satisfy these requirements
– at least 40 kHz (so can encode 20 kHz sounds), no more than 46.875
kHz (so require no more than 3 samples per line in PAL), and a multiple
of 900 Hz (so can be encoded in NTSC and PAL) are thus 40.5, 41.4,
42.3, 43.2, 44.1, 45, 45.9, and 46.8 kHz. The lower ones are eliminated
due to low-pass filters requiring a transition band, while the higher
ones are eliminated due to some lines being required for vertical
blanking interval; 44.1 kHz was the higher usable rate, and was
eventually chosen.
Is that math? It looks like math... oooooh my head hurts...
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Old 02-10-2015, 12:49 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Telenator View Post
As usual, it's SONY's fault. But let's not forget, the old BETA tapes were so much better than VHS ... meaning SONY gets one good idea and it gets crushed by the hoards.
You must have been watching only pr0n tapes, then - Philips' V2000 was technically better, it just didn't have pr0n available, courtesy of its Christian board of directors (crushed by the boards ). And everybody *hated* having to flip the tape halfway the movie - except people watching pr0n who usually didn't get that far in a single viewing.
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Old 02-10-2015, 12:58 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grinder View Post
Sony has been a pretty amazing firm when you think about it.
They have done lots of development over the years.
At that point, Sony was great at marketing and design, but really sucked at developing technology. Remember how they sold "walkmans" - which Philips had invented (but called "portable compact cassette player"). After both Philips and Sony had lost the video standard war, they teamed up to redeploy Philips' existing LaserDisc technology under a new name, Compact Disc (also see S/PDIF: Sony/Philips digital interface.)

Then both firms failed big time again, when Apple - a company without any music tech nor a huge music publishing rights catalog - showed them how to design and market sell portable music players. Amazing, indeed.
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Old 02-10-2015, 01:29 AM   #16
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......After both Philips and Sony had lost the video standard war, they teamed up to redeploy Philips' existing LaserDisc technology under a new name, Compact Disc (also see S/PDIF: Sony/Philips digital interface.)
I posted about that a few posts up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReaDave View Post
Indeed. In fact, the S/Pdif protocol many of us use actually stands for Sony/Philips Digital Interconnect Format.

Philips are also another company that have been pivotal in the digital revolution. They were pioneers in the development of the Compact Disc format. I still have a first generation Philips CD player here.
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Old 02-10-2015, 03:23 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by ReaDave View Post
I posted about that a few posts up.
Ah yes, missed that bit. The point I wanted to make here is that - oversimplified a bit - Sony didn't really put in much useful technological expertise, that was mainly Philips' contribution. But Philips sucked at marketing and design (LD, V2000 flops; Sony outselling them on 'walkmans'), where Sony did a much better job at that point in time. They joined forces mainly because sufficient critical mass (market share) is needed to set a new standard; both firms were big players in music publishing too, and they used a very liberal licensing scheme so everony could build cheap CD players (royalties were set at less than a dollar per CD player, iirc).
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Old 02-10-2015, 07:34 AM   #18
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yeah betamax was fucking brilliant.
Indeed. Remember the portable F1 ? which IIRC could be used for pcm audio. Also it could be simply slotted into a pro edit suite and be used directly as a source machine.
Still have a beta tape somewhere. oh the memories.
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Old 02-10-2015, 01:15 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Jeffsounds View Post
Is that math? It looks like math... oooooh my head hurts...
Math is good...
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Old 02-10-2015, 03:50 PM   #20
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Math is good...
BLASPHEMER!

Actually I rather enjoyed math in school, especially algebra. I remember algebra being quite fun in college but we had this really cool prof who was GREAT at teaching his subject!
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Old 02-11-2015, 11:57 AM   #21
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BLASPHEMER!

Actually I rather enjoyed math in school, especially algebra. I remember algebra being quite fun in college but we had this really cool prof who was GREAT at teaching his subject!
Yes, that matters... a lot. Unfortunately, the way math is taught in schools is (typically) not good...
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Old 02-11-2015, 12:03 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by The Telenator View Post
As usual, it's SONY's fault. But let's not forget, the old BETA tapes were so much better than VHS ... meaning SONY gets one good idea and it gets crushed by the hoards.
I've heard this. how are Beta tapes better than VHS though? just curious
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