Old 07-09-2022, 01:51 PM   #1
sw_
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Default MIDI CC in track envelope or as overlay?

Hello!

Is there a way to get the, for example, 01 Mod Wheel MSB, visible in the track envelopes -just like pan/vol etc? Or is there some other way to edit CC outside of the midi editor, like item overlay or such?


https://imgur.com/a/BKpHZoB
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Old 07-10-2022, 04:33 AM   #2
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Maybe you want ReaControlMIDI ? Depends what you're doing.
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Old 07-10-2022, 08:06 AM   #3
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DarkStar wrote a JSFX to convert automation envelopes into CC messages: https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=109379


If you have the SWS extension installed, there are several actions for converting automation envelopes in to CC:

SWS/BR: Convert selected envelope's curve to CC events in last clicked CC lane in last active MIDI editor
SWS/BR: Convert selected envelope's curve to CC events in last clicked CC lane in last active MIDI editor (clear existing events)
SWS/BR: Convert selected envelope's curve in time selection to CC events in last clicked CC lane in last active MIDI editor
SWS/BR: Convert selected envelope's curve in time selection to CC events in last clicked CC lane in last active MIDI editor (clear existing events)

I've never used these SWS actions, so I can't say anything good or bad about them. But I have used DarkStar's FX, and it does what I need it to do.
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Last edited by lunker; 07-10-2022 at 08:17 AM.
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Old 07-10-2022, 08:20 AM   #4
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replacing native in-item MIDI cc with a reacontrolmidi CC generator is currently the only way to record/edit CCs in the arrange view. this has several benefits over in-item MIDI ccs, and a few downsides.

the biggest benefit is that you can use razer edits to move, manipulate, and edit track automation. this is a far superior experience to editing MIDI cc data in the editor.

tied with the above, another benefit is that CCs are not tied to MIDI items and ignore splits between multiple MIDI items in a track. this is a more practical application for CCs, because you'll never end up with multiple overlapping instances of the same CC envelope -- something that can easily happen if you're attempting to edit a curve across multiple MIDI items. there is never a time where you'd want 2 MIDI items with pitchbend on the same MIDI channel feeding the same VSTi - these signals are essentially monophonic, and should never overlap.

the biggest downside is that using ReacontrolMIDI to record CC as track automation results in REAPER adding automation that you did not perform to your content. when you enable or record track automation, REAPER applies your starting value infinitely across your project, and any recorded automation carves away from this "default value." conversely, recording CCs is default-value agnostic, and REAPER instead refers to the last recorded CC data point entered -- this is the expected behavior when recording control interfaces: the data should stay where it was left, not where it was started.

yes, this means that you cannot record a simple fadeout without an abrupt "fadeup" being inserted ahead of your play cursor. there is no way to prevent this, and it's wrong behavior.

see this thread, https://forums.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=252010

or as a TLDR, see these images: here is the behavior when you record automation. note the unrecorded content inserted ahead of the play cursor. (edit to clarify: i'm using automation items with the "background" envelope bypassed, but the same issue happens with vanilla track-wide non-AI envelopes as well)



and compare to recording a MIDI cc in the MIDI editor: no such content is added to bring the envelope back to the so-called "default value" ... this is expected behavior. the data stays where it was left until the subsequent value.



as an experiment, i set up an isolated MIDI controller in my locked shed. i moved one fader all the way to the bottom value, and left it there. it's been two years, and surprise! the knob hasn't moved back to its "default value" on its own. automation data should behave the same way.

recording automation isn't woodcarving, we shouldn't be starting with this assumption of an infinite-length block of automation data out of which we carve our desired curves. automation should refer to the last recorded data point and leave it there. it absolutely should not be inserting content ahead of the play cursor.
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mccrabney scripts: MIDI edits from the Arrange screen ala jjos/MPC sequencer
|sis - - - anacru| isn't what we performed: pls no extra noteons in loop recording
| - - - - - anacru|sis <==this is what we actually performed.

Last edited by mccrabney; 07-10-2022 at 08:33 AM.
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Old 07-10-2022, 08:49 AM   #5
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here's a crude gif showing where this becomes problematic.

in this example, i have an example melodic phrase that contains previously draw/recorded automation in the 2nd half. let's say i want to fade out the volume on the repeated chord in the middle section, leaving the volume fully "off" until the pre-existing automation brings it back to full volume.

this is not in any way an advanced technique or concept - i just want to record a fade.

so, i turn on an automation recording mode and attempt to record a fade on the repeated chord section. however, automation is forced to its original value ahead of the play cursor, and the last chord plays at a volume level that is different from the last recorded automation value.



there is no way to get the desired behavior here, and it's something OP should be aware of if they want to be recording CCs in arrange view via Reacontrolmidi
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mccrabney scripts: MIDI edits from the Arrange screen ala jjos/MPC sequencer
|sis - - - anacru| isn't what we performed: pls no extra noteons in loop recording
| - - - - - anacru|sis <==this is what we actually performed.
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Old 07-10-2022, 10:21 AM   #6
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Bit of a thread hijack there.
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Old 07-10-2022, 10:43 AM   #7
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these are relevant issues that anyone who wants to use CCs from arrange view using Reacontrolmidi should know and be prepared for. it won't work the same way as it does in the MIDI editor and i describe why in detail.
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mccrabney scripts: MIDI edits from the Arrange screen ala jjos/MPC sequencer
|sis - - - anacru| isn't what we performed: pls no extra noteons in loop recording
| - - - - - anacru|sis <==this is what we actually performed.
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Old 07-10-2022, 10:58 AM   #8
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I believe your issue is specifically to do with recording automation items, which is not what the OP was asking about.
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Old 07-10-2022, 11:11 AM   #9
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no, it happens to plain envelopes as well.

recording any automation results in different content than recording MIDI ccs. here's a recording of a reacontrolmidi slider sending a volume CC to a track.



note, after recording is stopped, the envelope returns to the pre-fade value. a VSTi would respond by being played at full volume in the time after record stop.

here's the same fade on the same instance of reaacontrolmidi being recorded via record track MIDI output.



here, as expected, the CC is at position 0 after recording stop. it remains where i manually moved the reacontrolmidi fader.

this illustrates the difference.
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mccrabney scripts: MIDI edits from the Arrange screen ala jjos/MPC sequencer
|sis - - - anacru| isn't what we performed: pls no extra noteons in loop recording
| - - - - - anacru|sis <==this is what we actually performed.
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Old 07-10-2022, 11:23 AM   #10
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if midi CCs recorded the same way that arrange-screen automation did, recording a CC volume fade and then hitting stop would result in this:



and i would think that would be obviously wrong.
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mccrabney scripts: MIDI edits from the Arrange screen ala jjos/MPC sequencer
|sis - - - anacru| isn't what we performed: pls no extra noteons in loop recording
| - - - - - anacru|sis <==this is what we actually performed.
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Old 07-10-2022, 12:55 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mccrabney View Post
no, it happens to plain envelopes as well.
I'm pretty sure you've documented this in your own thread dedicated to the issue. I can see that it grinds your gears, but that's still no reason to hijack a thread like this. Anyhoo, all the best to you. And I hope the OP got something useful from earlier replies.
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Old 07-10-2022, 01:40 PM   #12
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again, i reject your accusation of a hijack. this is all relevant to OP's question about arrange view CCs.
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|sis - - - anacru| isn't what we performed: pls no extra noteons in loop recording
| - - - - - anacru|sis <==this is what we actually performed.
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Old 07-10-2022, 01:56 PM   #13
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Hi mccrabney!

I'm not sure about the hijacking comment, but I think it might be because there wasn't an indication in the original post that they were trying to record CC/automation. It only mentioned viewing/editing CC data.

I appreciated what you posted, whether or not it applies to what the OP is looking for. And if the OP is trying to recording CC into an envelope, then you have made them aware of a potential issue.
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