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Old 12-29-2014, 12:01 AM   #1
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Default Kotelnikov vs TB-Buscompressor v3.0.9

Hi all

I'm no compressor expert !! hence the question.

Have any of you more experienced engineers tried these two out against each other ?
Any feedback from those who have would be most appreciated !!

Tone-Boosters has a sale on atm and if you buy 5 or more plugins you get a 30% discount, i might take advantage of the sale but i'd have to include the Bus-compressor in my purchase.

Kotelnikov has been getting real good reviews and its probably more bus compressor than i'd ever need or understand how to get the most out of for that matter

They both claim to be very transparent, maybe TB-Buscompressor would be easier to use, although they both have a bunch of out of the ordinary parameters, arrrgh so confusing

Do you think its worth having both ?


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Old 12-29-2014, 12:56 AM   #2
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Bus compression is important for me.
All I can say is that Tokydawn plugins are superb.
I have TDR Feeback Compressor II inserted in every bus and in master chain to glue all busses to a great sounding mix.
Kotelnikov is great, too, I use it for e-bass and still have TDR Feedback II.
A buss compressor has to be subtle not coloring the sound too much and thatīs what TDR Feeback and Kotelnikov are able to do.
Have you watched the great presentation video for Kotelnikov ?

Frankly speaking I would not need two different buss compressors, TDR Feeback the one and only for me.


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Last edited by Giano; 12-29-2014 at 01:15 AM.
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Old 12-29-2014, 02:27 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Giano View Post
A buss compressor has to be subtle not coloring the sound too much and thatīs what TDR Feeback and Kotelnikov are able to do.
While this is what would be ideal in theory from what i understand the SSL Bus Compressor has a distinct colouration that makes it unique and one of the most widely used Bus comps around.

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Have you watched the great presentation video for Kotelnikov ?
The one that Dan Worrell does ?, if so, yes he does a great job on all the videos he does.

In fact i regularly use his ( Platinumears )FL4TT3RY 2 Bus compressor, i like it a lot.
Not sure but i think it is "loosely" based on an SSL Bus comp.

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Frankly speaking I would not need two different buss compressors, TDR Feeback the one and only for me.
This is exactly why i'm trying to figure out wether or not to invest in the TB-Buscompressor, i really don't want to be double up on compressors, i already have a boat load of software comps

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

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Old 12-29-2014, 04:08 AM   #4
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(Platinumears )FL4TT3RY 2 Bus compressor, yes the NI Reaktor version of this plugin is superb, but the normal version I never use
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Old 12-29-2014, 04:27 AM   #5
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Well' i've just been running some tests.

I got one of my fav professionaly mixed tracks, choose a perset from each plugin which sounded like what you would use for good clean master bus compression, i left all parameters unchanged except fot the threshold which i changed so each comp was applying the same gain reduction through a looped ( loud ) section of the song
and also adjusted the make up gain so the master bus meter was matching as closely as possible with the alternate comps engaged.

From this very quick test TB-Buscompressor is sounding much more transparent than KOTELNIKOV, the compression from KOTELNIKOV is much more noticeable, it makes for a more dense thicker sound, very noticable.

Anyone else have any findings of their own ?


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Old 12-29-2014, 04:28 AM   #6
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(Platinumears )FL4TT3RY 2 Bus compressor, yes the NI Reaktor version of this plugin is superb, but the normal version I never use
Does that mean that the Reaktor version is superior to the normal version or do you just prefer to use TDR Feedback over it ?


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Old 12-29-2014, 04:44 AM   #7
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When I studied sound engineering I was taught that if you were going to use a buss compressor it should be in place before starting to mix. This allows you to factor it's effect (and colour, depending what you're using) into the decisions you make whilst mixing. If you are just going to add a compressor after the mix is finished you will get varying results, but most of the time it will just make things worse but a little bit louder. That's not to say that it never works, sometimes it might be exactly what a track needed to make it shine, but whenever you are adding a compressor you should ask yourself -why- you are adding it? In the case of a buss comp; are the drums lacking some punch? Would that be better done on the drum buss? Is the track 'uneven' volume wise? Could you fix that with automation?

Having the buss comp in place and mixing into it makes things fall into place quicker and with less effort, you will need less compression on individual tracks as they will all be receiving compression at the 2 buss already. Adding it after the fact usually improves one aspect at the expense of another. Obviously YMMV and all that, but I will say that this is how every professional sound engineer I have ever known personally or worked with has done it.
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Old 12-29-2014, 04:45 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolffman View Post
Does that mean that the Reaktor version is superior to the normal version or do you just prefer to use TDR Feedback over it ?


Cheers
For bass or drums I sometimes use FL4TT3RY 2 Bus compressor instead of TDR Feedback or now also Kotelnikov for Bass

In master chain you can also try two or three bus compressors, sometimes you get good results sometimes itīs better just to use one comptressor, it depends on the specific mix or Music style, I suppose. So sometimes I add FL4TT3RY 2 Bus compressor to TDR Feedback in master track.

So my answer to your first post must be that it can be good to have 2 or 3 or maybe even 4 different bus compressors (Red Phat for drums only can be great, too!). For a mix with natural sounding instruments (acoustic or Nylon guitar, percussion, vocals) TDR Feedback is my only bus compressor in most cases !

For single tracks my fav compressor is ReaComp and for aux buss compression (a compressor that compresses a fx plugin e.g. reverb or delay or filter in order to set it off and radically affect the effect) I have a special compressor with fixed att and rel times (fast/medium/slow) and fixed ratio.
Recently I finished a track to show what you can do with NI Replika plugin; the special fx drum sounds are produced by Replika and special compression of Replika in an aux bus track.


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YES, the quality of Reaktor version is a lot better !

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Old 12-29-2014, 05:24 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Stu View Post
When I studied sound engineering I was taught that if you were going to use a buss compressor it should be in place before starting to mix. This allows you to factor it's effect (and colour, depending what you're using) into the decisions you make whilst mixing. If you are just going to add a compressor after the mix is finished you will get varying results, but most of the time it will just make things worse but a little bit louder. That's not to say that it never works, sometimes it might be exactly what a track needed to make it shine, but whenever you are adding a compressor you should ask yourself -why- you are adding it? In the case of a buss comp; are the drums lacking some punch? Would that be better done on the drum buss? Is the track 'uneven' volume wise? Could you fix that with automation?

Having the buss comp in place and mixing into it makes things fall into place quicker and with less effort, you will need less compression on individual tracks as they will all be receiving compression at the 2 buss already. Adding it after the fact usually improves one aspect at the expense of another. Obviously YMMV and all that, but I will say that this is how every professional sound engineer I have ever known personally or worked with has done it.
If you have a bus comp inserted in all busses or folders from the beginning of a new projet, then you must use presets ?! You havenīt tracked/recorded anything in the beginning yet ! You have to tweak it anyway depending on Music style, bpm and character (agressive, smooth etc.) of the new mix/Project !
Maybe the settings/presets will not work properly for your new Project, so I am not sure if itīs good to have bus compression inserted from the beginning ?!

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Old 12-29-2014, 05:36 AM   #10
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If you have a bus comp inserted in all busses or folders from the beginning of a new projet, then you must use presets ?! You havenīt tracked/recorded anything in the beginning yet ! You have to tweak it anyway depending on Music style, bpm and character of the new mix/Project !
Maybe the settings/presets will not work properly for your new Project, so I am not sure if itīs good to have bus compression inserted from the beginning ?!
You've made a number of assumptions there. I was talking about mix buss compression, compressing the channels that your entire mix goes through. I mentioned this because that's how Wolffman tested the two compressors. I said you should set this up before mixing, not before recording your tracks, so obviously you would have an idea at that point how you want the compressor to behave and what you want it to do to the signal. I also didn't say that you don't make adjustments to it as the mix progresses, so no, I'm not talking about presets.
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Old 12-29-2014, 05:37 AM   #11
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I see now, thanks for your reply :-)

Itīs just something I am still not sure about.
Some engineers do use buss compression from the beginning of a project !
They say, since they will insert it anyway sooner or later, itīs better
to have it from the beginning !?

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Old 12-29-2014, 05:58 AM   #12
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I see now, thanks for your reply :-)

Itīs just something I am still not sure about.
Some engineers do use buss compression from the beginning of a project !
They say, since they will insert it anyway sooner or later, itīs better
to have it from the beginning !?
Maybe they have it inserted but not doing anything, I've never heard of anyone automatically adding a comp to the mix buss for tracking and can't really see any reason to do so. They probably have it bypassed until they start mixing, or when you have a band sat behind you impatiently wanting it to sound 'awesome'.
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Old 12-29-2014, 06:16 AM   #13
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Dan Worrell videos make me want to get whatever plugin he's showcasing. I'm already in love with TDR II and now Kotelnikov looks interesting. I had no interest in SlickEQ prior to watching that showcase video and now I want it.

As far as bus compression goes, I agree with Stu... the main question is why you want the compression. For me, doing Hip-hop, I primarily am concerned with vocals. I need loud vocals that don't sound squashed in the mix. TDR II shines. I'll use a compressor on the vox bus sometimes if needed and then, only for further squashing and pumping out a bit more db of loudness. I'm sure the whole bus comp thing comes way more into play when tracking live drums where the sound really changes with compression. My 2c.
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Old 12-29-2014, 06:23 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu View Post
When I studied sound engineering I was taught that if you were going to use a buss compressor it should be in place before starting to mix. This allows you to factor it's effect (and colour, depending what you're using) into the decisions you make whilst mixing. If you are just going to add a compressor after the mix is finished you will get varying results, but most of the time it will just make things worse but a little bit louder. That's not to say that it never works, sometimes it might be exactly what a track needed to make it shine, but whenever you are adding a compressor you should ask yourself -why- you are adding it? In the case of a buss comp; are the drums lacking some punch? Would that be better done on the drum buss? Is the track 'uneven' volume wise? Could you fix that with automation?

Having the buss comp in place and mixing into it makes things fall into place quicker and with less effort, you will need less compression on individual tracks as they will all be receiving compression at the 2 buss already. Adding it after the fact usually improves one aspect at the expense of another. Obviously YMMV and all that, but I will say that this is how every professional sound engineer I have ever known personally or worked with has done it.
Thanks for the detailed post Stu.

I wouldn't normally do what i did for this quick test, i was just trying to see if both compressors affected the track in the same way, i know it was not the correct way to apply compression.

Do you know of a way to highlight the differences between the two comps without doing two completely different mixes of the same track using the different bus comps on each track ?

I'm just trying to establish weather on not to buy the TB-Buscomp, i have some other TB plugins that i really like and if i take advantage of the current sale i'll have the complete suite.


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Old 12-29-2014, 07:10 AM   #15
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Old 12-29-2014, 09:34 AM   #16
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Maybe they have it inserted but not doing anything, I've never heard of anyone automatically adding a comp to the mix buss for tracking and can't really see any reason to do so. They probably have it bypassed until they start mixing, or when you have a band sat behind you impatiently wanting it to sound 'awesome'.
You seem to know quite a lot about compression, maybe you could answer my question to following Video:
http://www.ultimatemixingformula.com...pressor-setup/

Stop the Video at 1:19 and read Step 2 and 3:
Step 2: Start with a slow attack (100ms) and a fast realease (5ms)
Step 3: Drop attack until...
You would need an attack value less than 5ms in order to make the compressor start working (value < 5ms), is this correct?, cuz release time always must have bigger value than attack time ! That means if you do it that way the value for attack time automatically will be less than 5 MS and I do not think this is the way it should be ? Maybe an attack time of 12 ms will be better in the end !?
And then that guy says attack times between 10 - 40 ms work best for mixes ? With release time 5 ms in the beginning you will not hear the compressor work with attack time 10 ms ?! I am not sure if the steps described in the video are good ?

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Old 12-29-2014, 09:50 AM   #17
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Actually a very apt picture paulheu.

In general, I think compression is largely overrated and tends to be used as a crutch. Routinely, I only use comps on vocals, bass guitar and snare as they tend to always need compression. For most other things I try as much as I can to stay well away from it at the mixing stage. Personally, I don't know anyone who sticks a comp on the 2 buss and mixes into it - just the concept of that makes my head spin - sounds more like fumbling in the dark to me to try and control 100+ tracks with one compressor before you've even started getting a mix together. I know people do it but I've come to the conclusion that that stuff is for folks who A) know their tools inside out and B) know exactly what they want from a mix before they actually start. I actually know of one engineer who always mixes into a multiband comp - I can understand that more as it affords much better control of a mix. If I do buss compression (drum/2 buss etc.) I usually add it at a late stage as I don't want it influencing my main mix decisions.

And, converse to most opinions I come across, I'm actually not that keen on the TDR comps (but then I'm not a big fan of so called 'transparent compression'). I think, with these kind of comps, it can be all too easy to flatline your mix in a characterless way.
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Old 12-29-2014, 09:59 AM   #18
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In general, I think compression is largely overrated and tends to be used as a crutch.
Amen and Amen..

IMO too often compression is used in the way a woman will try and squeeze her feet into shoes a size too small just because they look so nice with that dress..
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Old 12-29-2014, 10:03 AM   #19
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It depends on what kind of Music you produce and/or what instruments.

E.g an e-bass MUST be compressed, otherwise you would not be satisfied with the result, for sure, uncompressed e-bass does not work in a mix (bladerunner also mentioned it !) and I am pretty surprised to hear that there are people / engineers not using bus-compression at all, never heard that before, but why not, as far as I know the main purpose is "glueing".

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Old 12-29-2014, 10:13 AM   #20
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It depends on what kind of Music you produce and/or what instruments.

E.g an e-bass MUST be compressed, otherwise you would not be satisfied with the result, for sure, uncompressed e-bass does not work in a mix (bladerunner also mentioned it !) and I am pretty surprised to hear that there are people / engineers not using bus-compression at all, never herad that before, but why not, as far as I know the main purpose is "glueing".
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Old 12-29-2014, 10:19 AM   #21
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E.g an e-bass MUST be compressed, otherwise you would not be satisfied with the result, for sure, uncompressed e-bass does not work in a mix (bladerunner also mentioned it !...
Well, I never said 'must'. Occasionally a well played bass guitar will need nothing more than a bit of volume automation to get it to sit where it needs to be.
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Old 12-29-2014, 10:37 AM   #22
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Well, I never said 'must'. Occasionally a well played bass guitar will need nothing more than a bit of volume automation to get it to sit where it needs to be.
what is the difference of volume Automation and compression ?? Thatīs what a compressor is doing ! of course it MUST, cuz itīs the nature of an e-bass. I wanted to say that you have mentioned e-bass, as well, of course everyone can see that you did not write "MUST" !!!
Please explain "well played e-Bass" ? I think it makes no sense to talk about not-well-played e-bass ?!
Maybe I do not know enough about compressors, but enough to make a decent mix, but if someone wants to tell me
something about an e-bass, well, then I am very curious.
So you are someone not using bus compression, and not necessarily compressing an e-bass, I see, u wanna be different ! okay :-)
but pls inform my speakers before I play or listen to something that you have mixed or mastered with e-bass haha

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Old 12-29-2014, 10:44 AM   #23
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what is the difference of volume Automation and compression ?? Thatīs what a compressor is doing ! of course it MUST, cuz itīs the nature of an e-bass. I wanted to say that you have mentioned e-bass, as well, of course veryone can see that you did not write "MUST" !!!
Please explain "well played e-Bass" ? I think it makes no sense to talk about not well played e-bass ?!
So you are someone not using bus compression, and not compressing an e-bass, I see, u wanna be different ! okay :-)
Well, I have no hard and fast rules and it's not that I want to be different lol! I use whatever I have to use to achieve whatever it is I want to achieve. If, in an entire bass guitar performance, there are just a few points where it can't be heard, or a few transients are lost in the mix I will use simple volume automation. If there are inconsistencies across the board I will use a compressor.
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Old 12-29-2014, 11:16 AM   #24
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Actually a very apt picture paulheu.

In general, I think compression is largely overrated and tends to be used as a crutch. Routinely, I only use comps on vocals, bass guitar and snare as they tend to always need compression. For most other things I try as much as I can to stay well away from it at the mixing stage. Personally, I don't know anyone who sticks a comp on the 2 buss and mixes into it - just the concept of that makes my head spin - sounds more like fumbling in the dark to me to try and control 100+ tracks with one compressor before you've even started getting a mix together. I know people do it but I've come to the conclusion that that stuff is for folks who A) know their tools inside out and B) know exactly what they want from a mix before they actually start. I actually know of one engineer who always mixes into a multiband comp - I can understand that more as it affords much better control of a mix. If I do buss compression (drum/2 buss etc.) I usually add it at a late stage as I don't want it influencing my main mix decisions.

And, converse to most opinions I come across, I'm actually not that keen on the TDR comps (but then I'm not a big fan of so called 'transparent compression'). I think, with these kind of comps, it can be all too easy to flatline your mix in a characterless way.
I love using and mixing into buss compressor(s). I use them for the tonal attributes and "glue" characteristics, rather than simple volume control.

Maybe those who enjoy clean compressors on the buss(es) already have character in the tracks to begin with.
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Old 12-29-2014, 11:22 AM   #25
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From this very quick test TB-Buscompressor is sounding much more transparent than KOTELNIKOV, the compression from KOTELNIKOV is much more noticeable, it makes for a more dense thicker sound, very noticable.
Hmm... not what I experience here. I can do ridiculous gain reduction amounts and still have a very clean, transparent mix... TDR stuff is simply sublime!
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Old 12-29-2014, 11:38 AM   #26
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bladerunner: "Personally, I don't know anyone who sticks a comp on the 2 buss and mixes into it - just the concept of that makes my head spin - sounds more like fumbling in the dark to me to try and control 100+ tracks with one compressor before you've even started getting a mix together."

'Mixing into the Buss' is a pretty standard technique. Some do it, some don't. Stu and jpanderson80 explained well its virtues above. I use this method maybe half the time at most, though.
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Old 12-29-2014, 11:42 AM   #27
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Forgot to say, I'm using Kotelnikov regularly now. FB compessors are cool and all, but I put FB Comp II on the shelf for now. This Kotelnikov is much more what I love in (particularly!) free compressors. Got plenty of character comps already; I find this new one wonderfully transparent and solid. Gee, TDR makes such nice stuff! So great to see that Vladg is working with Fabien lately.
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Old 12-29-2014, 12:19 PM   #28
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Can someone clear something up for me about compressors used for changing dynamics? At the moment I just tweak until it doesn't sound horrible (even though most of my projects are horrible in general :P), but I don't really like not knowing what I'm doing.

If you have a track with a too high dynamic range, you use a compressor to "flatten" the dynamics by bringing the peaks down.

What I don't understand is: if you have an attack that's too fast, it will either distort if it is a very clean instrument, or kill the transients if it's something like drums. If you have a long attack, though, it won't catch the peaks, and is probably raising the dynamic range on something like drums.

What kind of settings are you supposed to use to reduce dynamic range? Am I assuming something wrong?

I usually keep as short of an attack I can without distorting and then put a soft clipper (GClip) after the compressor to the peaks, but I'm pretty sure this is not the right way to do it.


IT: The kotelnikov is pretty cool, also seems to run pretty well on linux if I don't use the UI. I think I might buy the GE for the A/B which looks even cooler.
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Old 12-29-2014, 12:39 PM   #29
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Nice thing about Kotelnikov (like its predecessor FB Comp II) is that it can work separately on your peaks and then also the general 'bulk', the RMS content. And it does this extremely well, which is so impressive.

meteOr, try the clipper or a limiter before the compression -- some do this. Basic thing is, you can decrease your dynamic range some, little or greatly with a comp, thus making the overall mix some or much louder. But there are other reasons for using compressors, too.

I really think you cannot learn the best uses of comps overnight. It truly takes plenty of time, study and -- in particular -- much tweaking and listening to results. And don't believe everything you read about compression on the internet. Some posters are just totally wrong or full of it. Develop your ears (if you haven't already) and trust what you hear over what you are told. There are a few hard and fast rules in compression, but a lot of the cool sounds that have come from comps and such came from abusing them and experimenting.
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Old 12-29-2014, 12:42 PM   #30
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Can someone clear something up for me about compressors used for changing dynamics? At the moment I just tweak until it doesn't sound horrible (even though most of my projects are horrible in general :P), but I don't really like not knowing what I'm doing.

If you have a track with a too high dynamic range, you use a compressor to "flatten" the dynamics by bringing the peaks down.

What I don't understand is: if you have an attack that's too fast, it will either distort if it is a very clean instrument, or kill the transients if it's something like drums. If you have a long attack, though, it won't catch the peaks, and is probably raising the dynamic range on something like drums.

What kind of settings are you supposed to use to reduce dynamic range? Am I assuming something wrong?

I usually keep as short of an attack I can without distorting and then put a soft clipper (GClip) after the compressor to the peaks, but I'm pretty sure this is not the right way to do it.
This may be a question that can be answered in a different thread. Try looking up parallel compression, if you're unfamiliar.

EDIT:
Try this thread:http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.p...pression+works
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Old 12-29-2014, 12:56 PM   #31
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You seem to know quite a lot about compression, maybe you could answer my question to following Video:
http://www.ultimatemixingformula.com...pressor-setup/

Stop the Video at 1:19 and read Step 2 and 3:
Step 2: Start with a slow attack (100ms) and a fast realease (5ms)
Step 3: Drop attack until...
You would need an attack value less than 5ms in order to make the compressor start working (value < 5ms), is this correct?, cuz release time always must have bigger value than attack time !
I can't watch the video right now, but I think you are misunderstanding slightly how compressors work:

Threshold is the point at which compression begins (depending on knee).

Ratio is the amount of compression applied to the signal (1:1 would be no compression at all, 2:1 means that a signal 2 dB over the threshold will be compressed by 1 dB, in other words 2 dB in results in 1 dB out).

Attack is the amount of time it takes for the compression to react to signals exceeding the threshold, or to be more precise the amount of time it takes to reach maximum attenuation. In reality this differs with many compression designs, and is part of the reason we choose particular units for particular tasks. For example, an 1176 applies compression almost like a brick wall limiter even on it's slowest attack setting, so isn't necessarily going to be your first choice if you are trying to make a snare drum cut through a dense mix.

Release is the amount of time it takes for the compressor to 'relax' again once the signal has dipped back below the threshold. Again this will differ between compressor designs, and is part of the characteristics and sound of a particular unit.
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Old 12-29-2014, 12:58 PM   #32
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Can someone clear something up for me about compressors used for changing dynamics? At the moment I just tweak until it doesn't sound horrible (even though most of my projects are horrible in general :P), but I don't really like not knowing what I'm doing.

If you have a track with a too high dynamic range, you use a compressor to "flatten" the dynamics by bringing the peaks down.

What I don't understand is: if you have an attack that's too fast, it will either distort if it is a very clean instrument, or kill the transients if it's something like drums. If you have a long attack, though, it won't catch the peaks, and is probably raising the dynamic range on something like drums.

What kind of settings are you supposed to use to reduce dynamic range? Am I assuming something wrong?

I usually keep as short of an attack I can without distorting and then put a soft clipper (GClip) after the compressor to the peaks, but I'm pretty sure this is not the right way to do it.


IT: The kotelnikov is pretty cool, also seems to run pretty well on linux if I don't use the UI. I think I might buy the GE for the A/B which looks even cooler.
Why are you thinking about buying a compressor if, by your own admission, you don't really know what you're doing? There are many great free comps out there if you need to get more experience with them. Here is a video by Dan Worrall that does a good job of explaining the main factors involved with compression.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkeJqtJGn0I

My advice is - pick 1 good compressor (why not reacomp?) and take your time learning what each of the main controls do (attack, release, threshold and ratio). When you're getting a good grasp of that move on to the other controls. Try them on different sources - vocal, drum buss, individual drums, acoustic guitar etc. Take your time.
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Old 12-29-2014, 01:15 PM   #33
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just the concept of that makes my head spin - sounds more like fumbling in the dark to me to try and control 100+ tracks with one compressor before you've even started getting a mix together. I know people do it but I've come to the conclusion that that stuff is for folks who A) know their tools inside out and B) know exactly what they want from a mix before they actually start.
The idea isn't to try to control all your tracks before you get your mix together, you would be looking for maybe one to three dB of attenuation in the louder parts of the song, it helps add some cohesiveness to a mix and although I don't really like the term, some glue By mixing into it you can account for any extra punch/colour/sustain it may be adding so that don't end up having to process individual tracks as much, as well as making sure you aren't squashing anything too much. You are right about needing to have a solid idea about where you are taking the mix and knowing your tools. Give it a try sometime - do your usual clean&tidy of individual tracks then add a buss comp and float it so you can see gain reduction as you mix. If it gets above three or four dB lower the threshold slightly or back the faders down a bit.


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And, converse to most opinions I come across, I'm actually not that keen on the TDR comps (but then I'm not a big fan of so called 'transparent compression'). I think, with these kind of comps, it can be all too easy to flatline your mix in a characterless way.
I havent tried the new one but I'm not a fan of the TDR feedback comp at all. It's useful sometimes if you like things clean but I don't like the way it treats transients much and I always end up using something else.
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Old 12-29-2014, 01:23 PM   #34
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I can't watch the video right now, but I think you are misunderstanding slightly how compressors work:

Threshold is the point at which compression begins (depending on knee).

Ratio is the amount of compression applied to the signal (1:1 would be no compression at all, 2:1 means that a signal 2 dB over the threshold will be compressed by 1 dB, in other words 2 dB in results in 1 dB out).

Attack is the amount of time it takes for the compression to react to signals exceeding the threshold, or to be more precise the amount of time it takes to reach maximum attenuation. In reality this differs with many compression designs, and is part of the reason we choose particular units for particular tasks. For example, an 1176 applies compression almost like a brick wall limiter even on it's slowest attack setting, so isn't necessarily going to be your first choice if you are trying to make a snare drum cut through a dense mix.

Release is the amount of time it takes for the compressor to 'relax' again once the signal has dipped back below the threshold. Again this will differ between compressor designs, and is part of the characteristics and sound of a particular unit.
Thanks for your reply, but I know these Basics already, but you gave some interesting details, my questions refers to the Video or I could have asked, does it makes sense to have faster release than attack time ? because thatīs what you are are forced to do if you follow the steps in the Video and it forces you to have attack time values < 5 ms.

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Old 12-29-2014, 01:39 PM   #35
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Thanks for your reply, but I know these Basics already, but you gave some interesting details, my questions refers to the Video or I could have asked, does it makes sense to have faster release than attack time ? because thatīs what you are are forced to do if you follow the steps of the Video.
The answer lies in the basics The release doesn't do anything until the compressor has reacted to a signal, and it comes after the attack phase.

In theory, given textbook compressor behaviour (not likely in most comp designs), say you had a test tone and send a 30ms blast of it through our compressor. For the first 10ms the test tone is at -2 dB then jumps up to 0 dB for 10ms then back down to -2 dB for the final 10ms. The ratio is set at 2:1, threshold at -2 dB, attack at 10ms and release at 5ms. For the first 10ms the compressor would do nothing, as the signal is not above the threshold. When we arrive at the second section and the level increases to 0 dB our comp would react, and take 10ms to reach it's maximum attenuation of 1 dB. The signal then drops back to -2 dB and back beneath the threshold, and our release setting means it will take 5ms to 'relax' it's attenuation. For the last 5ms the compressor is doing nothing, as it was in the beginning. Hope that helps
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Old 12-29-2014, 01:43 PM   #36
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The answer lies in the basics The release doesn't do anything until the compressor has reacted to a signal, and it comes after the attack phase.

In theory, given textbook compressor behaviour (not likely in most comp designs), say you had a test tone and send a 30ms blast of it through our compressor. For the first 10ms the test tone is at -2 dB then jumps up to 0 dB for 10ms then back down to -2 dB for the final 10ms. The ratio is set at 2:1, threshold at -2 dB, attack at 10ms and release at 5ms. For the first 10ms the compressor would do nothing, as the signal is not above the threshold. When we arrive at the second section and the level increases to 0 dB our comp would react, and take 10ms to reach it's maximum attenuation of 1 dB. The signal then drops back to -2 dB and back beneath the threshold, and our release setting means it will 5ms to 'relax' it's attenuation. For the last 5ms the compressor is doing nothing, as it was in the beginning. Hope that helps
If thatīs right and I think it is, then a famous plugin developer made a big mistake in his tutorial by claiming that a compressor does not work as long as the release time is faster than attack time, oh I canīt remember which plugin right now, but I ll find it.
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Old 12-29-2014, 01:57 PM   #37
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I was not completely right

I refered to this Video by meldaproductions

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghhH...1&feature=mhee

and at at 10:15 they say

" the release time is usually set at least as high as the attack time, otherwise the Level may not even reach the threshold"
and then "low attack and high release settings&times are generally useless"

Nevertheless this means if the release time is not at least as high as the attack time, then the compressor does not affect the sound/Signal as a compressor, but that s not true !

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Old 12-29-2014, 02:00 PM   #38
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My advice is - pick 1 good compressor (why not reacomp?) and take your time learning what each of the main controls do (attack, release, threshold and ratio). When you're getting a good grasp of that move on to the other controls. Try them on different sources - vocal, drum buss, individual drums, acoustic guitar etc. Take your time.
I know what the parameters on a compressor do, and I use compressors already (mainly reacomp for routing sidechain drums and kotelnikov for everything else). I'm also "kind of" happy with the results.

I'm still not sure what the "proper" parameters should be to approach dynamic level compression (is it ok that the transient is getting killed? is it ok to put a clipper afterwards? should compression be used to reduce dynamic levels in very dynamic tracks dramatically?).

But as jpanderson80 says this should probably discussed in another thread, maybe I'll open one later.
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Old 12-29-2014, 02:07 PM   #39
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The idea isn't to try to control all your tracks before you get your mix together, you would be looking for maybe one to three dB of attenuation in the louder parts of the song, it helps add some cohesiveness to a mix and although I don't really like the term, some glue
Lol! I've just re-read what I wrote and it sounds like I'm talking about controlling the dynamic range of individual instruments with the buss comp!! Yep, I fully understand the thing that one tries to achieve with buss compression (as indeed I do use it - just at a fairly late stage of the mix) - I just personally have a bit of a mental block with the concept of doing that from the start of a mix. I must admit though, your post has made me think about trying it (and also about what comps might be good to try - I have some favourites).

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I havent tried the new one but I'm not a fan of the TDR feedback comp at all. It's useful sometimes if you like things clean but I don't like the way it treats transients much and I always end up using something else.
You are pretty much the first person I've come across that feels like me about the TDR FB comp. I feel like I ought to like it as everyone else seems bowled over but I almost never leave it in the mastering chain - something about it just doesn't sit right with me. I'm much more likely to use compressors like Blockfish, the Eventide Ultrachannel comps or Molot. If I want transparent I will usually just use Reacomp with the AA switched up to at least 8x.
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Old 12-29-2014, 02:08 PM   #40
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bladerunner: "Personally, I don't know anyone who sticks a comp on the 2 buss and mixes into it - just the concept of that makes my head spin - sounds more like fumbling in the dark to me to try and control 100+ tracks with one compressor before you've even started getting a mix together."

'Mixing into the Buss' is a pretty standard technique. Some do it, some don't. Stu and jpanderson80 explained well its virtues above. I use this method maybe half the time at most, though.

From what I've seen and read its more unusual to NOT use a buss compressor for popular musical styles.

The argument for it is that it putting buss compression on the mix early will speed up the mix process (it gels quicker) and also reduce the amount of compression you need on individual tracks. Its a top down approach which i have been experimenting with lately. The Buss compressor goes up as soon as i have the basic drum balance together but I make adjustments to threshold and other parameters as the mix progresses. Busses get compression, then if necessary i will add compression to individual tracks (Lead vocal always gets compressed individually).

I do the same thing with Satson and reelbuss. Satson is on everything because i have done tests (thanks to group bypass) and the mix sounds deeper and wider with satson engaged. Reelbuss lives on the 2 buss and sometimes on sub mixes or individual tracks. This article sums up my thoughts on mix saturation.

http://www.farmelorecording.com/in-t...sonic-varnish/

I have definitely bought in to this approach because its way cheaper than buying a summing box or an analog console. I think that like mix compression, saturation REALLY helps to gel the mix faster and its important that its on there early because it affects every decision you make.


I'll also experiment with EQ on 2 buss and submixes as well. If the mix sounds better with a 3 db hi shelf boost @ 10k then i know everything is too dark and i need to address it at the buss or track level. I learned it by watching Kenny Gioia and its a useful approach. The one difference being that the 2 buss compressor stays active but the EQ is bypassed or removed before I print the mix.

As for the Kotelnikov vs Toneboosters there is a thread gearslutz about the TB buss comp where the Kotelnikov is mentioned quite a bit. I love toneboosters stuff but the buss compressor has too many knobs for my taste. I'm sure it is fantastic but i like tools that are easy to grasp right away.
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/new-...t=toneboosters

Kotelnikov is deep but I just get it. Here is a fantatsic tutorial video for kotelnikov. It really is an outstanding compressor with just a ton of useful features. Hard to believe its free.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cpokm0j1DXQ

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