Old 05-16-2017, 02:43 AM   #1
enuenu
Human being with feelings
 
enuenu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Orstraylya
Posts: 283
Default Huge latency

After not using Reaper or my iMac for music for quite a while, I'm back into it (v4.78). I'm using an Apogee Jam 96k interface into USB on my iMac. I play guitar and bass into Reaper via the Jam and use virtual drum VSTs.

However I now find I have a huge latency problem. It is by my estimate at least 500ms. The system has been become completely unusable. I also notice the same problem when I try and use GarageBand.

I have noticed that the computer is running a little slowly generally lately, lots of spinning beachballs. Maybe the computer is clogged up? How would I know? I've found every computer I've ever owned (this is my first iMac) does this after a few years of use. I usually end up reformatting the HD and reinstalling the OS for a clean start. However I really want to avoid doing this to my iMac, it's such a hassle.

Here's a link to a screenshot of buffer settings. Block size is 512.

iMac specs are;
macOS Sierra 10.12.4
iMac (21.5-inch, Late 2013)
2.9 GHz Intel Core i5
8 GB 1600 MHz DDR3
NVIDIA GeForce GT 750M 1024 MB
enuenu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2017, 03:11 AM   #2
uncleswede
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 309
Default

Hi. OK - some questions:

If you create a fresh project and add just one track, set to record and monitor and play your guitar through it. Make sure you have no Reaper FX on the track or the master track or any Monitoring FX set up. Do you still get the latency?

Also are you using the very latest ASIO driver for the Apogee unit?

What is your ASIO configuration (Reaper, Preferences. Audio, ASIO)?
uncleswede is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2017, 04:38 AM   #3
enuenu
Human being with feelings
 
enuenu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Orstraylya
Posts: 283
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by uncleswede View Post
Hi. OK - some questions:

If you create a fresh project and add just one track, set to record and monitor and play your guitar through it. Make sure you have no Reaper FX on the track or the master track or any Monitoring FX set up. Do you still get the latency?
Yep, still the same. Measured with stopwatch on iPhone at 0.4 seconds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by uncleswede View Post
Also are you using the very latest ASIO driver for the Apogee unit?
Apogee automated email response to request for driver;
"The Apogee JAM 96k does not require any Apogee software or drivers. Simply connect the Apogee JAM 96k and the operating system will automatically recognize it."

Quote:
Originally Posted by uncleswede View Post
What is your ASIO configuration (Reaper, Preferences. Audio, ASIO)?
The "ASIO" option doesn't seem to exist. Under Reaper > Preferences > Audio, the only possible selections under Audio are Device, MIDI devices, Buffering, Playback, Seeking, Recording, Loop Recording and Rendering.

I also just spent a 90 minute chat with Apple support to check if I had major system problems. None were revealed.
enuenu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2017, 05:21 AM   #4
cyrano
Human being with feelings
 
cyrano's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Belgium
Posts: 2,403
Default

You need to update to 10.12.5 for USB and BT problems that have been fixed.

Also for security, although that won't screw with your sound

There are firmware updates for a LOT of older machines. These are meant to plug a big and ugly hole in the EFI that allows persistent malware. "Persistent" meaning it doesn't go away after a complete format and reinstall cycle.
__________________
Next thing on the todo list: introduce your paranoia to your imagination.
cyrano is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2017, 06:30 AM   #5
uncleswede
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 309
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by enuenu View Post
Yep, still the same. Measured with stopwatch on iPhone at 0.4 seconds.

Apogee automated email response to request for driver;
"The Apogee JAM 96k does not require any Apogee software or drivers. Simply connect the Apogee JAM 96k and the operating system will automatically recognize it."

The "ASIO" option doesn't seem to exist. Under Reaper > Preferences > Audio, the only possible selections under Audio are Device, MIDI devices, Buffering, Playback, Seeking, Recording, Loop Recording and Rendering.

I also just spent a 90 minute chat with Apple support to check if I had major system problems. None were revealed.
OK :-( I'm not an OSX man, I'm afraid, so I'll have to back out gracefully and hope you get this resolved soon. Good luck.
uncleswede is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2017, 06:36 AM   #6
enuenu
Human being with feelings
 
enuenu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Orstraylya
Posts: 283
Default

Thanks for the responses.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyrano View Post
You need to update to 10.12.5 for USB and BT problems that have been fixed.
Will update to 10.12.5. It just appeared as an update in App Store in the last 3 minutes. Prior to that the App Store didn't show it as an update for my system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyrano View Post
There are firmware updates for a LOT of older machines. These are meant to plug a big and ugly hole in the EFI that allows persistent malware. "Persistent" meaning it doesn't go away after a complete format and reinstall cycle.
Thanks, just found the download. Why is this not done via OS updates? If not for you I would never have known about it.

Last edited by enuenu; 05-16-2017 at 06:48 AM. Reason: 10.12.5 just appeared in App Store as an update
enuenu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2017, 06:05 PM   #7
enuenu
Human being with feelings
 
enuenu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Orstraylya
Posts: 283
Default

When I was running 10.12.4 and I tried to update EFI after downloading the file from Apple, the system told me "You must be running 10.12.5 to install". So I updated to 10.12.5 and tried the installation again. Then it said "You must be running 10.9.5 to install". Confused.

Latency still massive and Reaper unusable.
enuenu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2017, 07:24 PM   #8
serr
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 5,887
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by enuenu View Post
When I was running 10.12.4 and I tried to update EFI after downloading the file from Apple, the system told me "You must be running 10.12.5 to install". So I updated to 10.12.5 and tried the installation again. Then it said "You must be running 10.9.5 to install". Confused.

Latency still massive and Reaper unusable.
I found a number of bugs in the 10.12 installer too. Shocking actually. But that aside...

First, your block size.
From what you've said, you used to achieve acceptable latency (I assume that means < 11ms) for live performance work with a block size of 512 samples.

I find that surprising for an Apogee USB interface (I'd expect much higher at 512 samples) but that aside for now as well.

Now after some event (I'm not sure if you meant a Reaper update or an OSX update) a 512 sample block size has your latency increasing from < 11ms to over 500ms!

Is that correct?

My first question is on block size when the system was working.
You understand that you check the checkbox next to block size to enable control of this by Reaper and use the value entered and that unchecked means ignore any value entered here and let a different audio app control this?

I'd expect needing a block size of 128 samples just to hit < 11ms with a USB Apogee unit. Did you really have the box checked, 512 samples entered, and hit < 11ms?


Sorry for the grilling but we want to eliminate operator error.

If all the above is "yes, of course, yes", my suspicion would be that you updated OSX and now there's an issue with the class compliant driver (means the built-in OSX driver) with that Apogee interface.

What does their webpage say about OSX version support?
I believe some of their older interfaces require you to stay with an older OSX. If this is the case you may need to roll back to an older version.
__________________
Mac Pro 8x3.33GHz i7, 16GB, 256GB SSD(OS, apps), 3x2TB 7200 HD(data); MacBook Pro 2.8GHz, 6GB, 128GB SSD HD(OS, apps), 750GB 7200 HD(data); 2xTrue Precision 8; Apogee AD-16; 2xMOTU 828mk3, Evolution UC-33e; Faderport; WiRanger, iPad & the analog mixer has retired
serr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2017, 02:53 AM   #9
cyrano
Human being with feelings
 
cyrano's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Belgium
Posts: 2,403
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by enuenu View Post
Thanks for the responses.
Will update to 10.12.5. It just appeared as an update in App Store in the last 3 minutes. Prior to that the App Store didn't show it as an update for my system.


Thanks, just found the download. Why is this not done via OS updates? If not for you I would never have known about it.
Apple is doin' something new, apparently. It seems corporate caching update servers are bypassed for some. Nobody's got a clue as to what or why...
__________________
Next thing on the todo list: introduce your paranoia to your imagination.
cyrano is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2017, 02:55 AM   #10
cyrano
Human being with feelings
 
cyrano's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Belgium
Posts: 2,403
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by enuenu View Post
When I was running 10.12.4 and I tried to update EFI after downloading the file from Apple, the system told me "You must be running 10.12.5 to install". So I updated to 10.12.5 and tried the installation again. Then it said "You must be running 10.9.5 to install". Confused.

Latency still massive and Reaper unusable.
Have you tried resetting pram and SMC?
__________________
Next thing on the todo list: introduce your paranoia to your imagination.
cyrano is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2017, 05:20 AM   #11
enuenu
Human being with feelings
 
enuenu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Orstraylya
Posts: 283
Default

Thanks for the input.
Quote:
Originally Posted by serr View Post
First, your block size.
From what you've said, you used to achieve acceptable latency (I assume that means < 11ms) for live performance work with a block size of 512 samples.

I find that surprising for an Apogee USB interface (I'd expect much higher at 512 samples) but that aside for now as well.
This is not a parameter I have ever touched. I always left it at default, mainly because I had no idea what it meant, I have a little more of a clue now. The greater the block size, the greater the latency but the better the sound quality, I think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by serr View Post
Now after some event (I'm not sure if you meant a Reaper update or an OSX update) a 512 sample block size has your latency increasing from < 11ms to over 500ms!

Is that correct?
Yes.

I hadn't used Reaper in a long while. So there have been quite a few OS updates since I last used Reaper on my iMac. I got distracted from DAW work and what I did do I recorded with GarageBand on iPad for idea collection. Been mostly playing through amps. However I am back into the DAW world.

When I fired Reaper back up in the last few days I made the awful discovery that I have this latency problem. Note that the problem is identical on GB on my iMac. GB never had this problem in the past on my iMac either.

So I updated Reaper. From memory from v4.3.something to v4.78. My license is old and from memory only goes through to v4.99. I would probably upgrade again if I could get it to work. No point in the spend right now if the machine is now a DAW dud.

Quote:
Originally Posted by serr View Post
My first question is on block size when the system was working.
You understand that you check the checkbox next to block size to enable control of this by Reaper and use the value entered and that unchecked means ignore any value entered here and let a different audio app control this?

I'd expect needing a block size of 128 samples just to hit < 11ms with a USB Apogee unit. Did you really have the box checked, 512 samples entered, and hit < 11ms?

Sorry for the grilling but we want to eliminate operator error.
Grill away, I appreciate it I have included links to screen shots of some preferences as they stand. The check box next to block size was not ticked. However ticking it made no appreciable difference to latency, still terrible, around 400ms. Either did changing it from values between 32 and 1028.
Screen shot 1
Screen shot 2
Screen shot 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by serr View Post
If all the above is "yes, of course, yes", my suspicion would be that you updated OSX and now there's an issue with the class compliant driver (means the built-in OSX driver) with that Apogee interface.

What does their webpage say about OSX version support?
I believe some of their older interfaces require you to stay with an older OSX. If this is the case you may need to roll back to an older version.
I used the driver search tool on the Apogee Website and they sent me an automated email based on my input. This email sent me a link to the relevant driver. However the link pointed to a message that said essentially said, "It's all good, you don't need a driver, the OS will recognise the device". Which it does.

Rolling back the OS sounds like a big job that could result in other unpredictable effects on my system. I'm guessing security issues would be a concern, as would compatibility with a whole lot of other Apple apps.

Note that I still can't install the EFI. Part way through the attempt at installation the system tells me I need to be running 10.9.5 to install the file listed on the Apple support Website as the update to my machine's firmware???

Last edited by enuenu; 05-17-2017 at 05:32 AM.
enuenu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2017, 06:39 AM   #12
cyrano
Human being with feelings
 
cyrano's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Belgium
Posts: 2,403
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by enuenu View Post
Thanks for the responses.
Will update to 10.12.5. It just appeared as an update in App Store in the last 3 minutes. Prior to that the App Store didn't show it as an update for my system.

Thanks, just found the download. Why is this not done via OS updates? If not for you I would never have known about it.
I'm afraid I have missed this, or misread it.

You downloaded a separate firmware installer from Apple?

This might need 10.9.5.

I was talking about EFI/firmware updates via the appstore. If you didn't get one there, you probably shouldn't install it.

But if this one didn't tell you your firmware was already up-to-date, something is wrong.

If you always upgraded from Mavericks to Yosemite and so on, it could be time to do a clean install.
__________________
Next thing on the todo list: introduce your paranoia to your imagination.
cyrano is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2017, 11:38 AM   #13
serr
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 5,887
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by enuenu View Post
Thanks for the input.
This is not a parameter I have ever touched. I always left it at default, mainly because I had no idea what it meant, I have a little more of a clue now. The greater the block size, the greater the latency but the better the sound quality, I think.
Nope. This is simply the control for the I/O buffer you tell your DAW system to use. Literally the time you give the computer to process audio before it has to hit the output. Audio quality in a DAW is only either 100% or 0%. It doesn't scale quality like a video responding to reduced bandwidth might. (Which would be a nightmare!) It would start getting dropouts. Very black and white.

So you have a choice in how to use your system.
Set it for a latency of under 11ms for live work. You will have less headroom for extra heavyweight plugins in this scenario.
Set it to "don't care" (eg 1024 samples) for post mixing work to give you more headroom for processing plugins since you don't listen to live inputs mixed with live outputs in this scenario.


Quote:
Originally Posted by enuenu View Post
Yes.

I hadn't used Reaper in a long while. So there have been quite a few OS updates since I last used Reaper on my iMac. I got distracted from DAW work and what I did do I recorded with GarageBand on iPad for idea collection. Been mostly playing through amps. However I am back into the DAW world.

When I fired Reaper back up in the last few days I made the awful discovery that I have this latency problem. Note that the problem is identical on GB on my iMac. GB never had this problem in the past on my iMac either.
Since you mentioned never actually setting your latency value with intention I'd say all bets are off for that following it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by enuenu View Post
Grill away, I appreciate it I have included links to screen shots of some preferences as they stand. The check box next to block size was not ticked. However ticking it made no appreciable difference to latency, still terrible, around 400ms. Either did changing it from values between 32 and 1028.
Screen shot 1
Screen shot 2
Screen shot 3
I see you're running some aggregate device configuration there. Sometimes using multiple interfaces together in an aggregate results in increased latency at the same settings. You may need to switch to only using the Apogee for the live sound work.

Question: I see you are not controlling the system sample rate from the device page. Are you controlling that with Reaper via the Project Settings checkbox or are you using a different audio app or control panel app to control your system sample rate?

SOP is to control both of these from the DAW app as first choice. Only go elsewhere if a device or use situation demands it.

If you were running at a different sample rate than your audio, Reaper would be converting everything on the fly and this sure wouldn't be a good scenario for live use either!


Quote:
Originally Posted by enuenu View Post
I used the driver search tool on the Apogee Website and they sent me an automated email based on my input. This email sent me a link to the relevant driver. However the link pointed to a message that said essentially said, "It's all good, you don't need a driver, the OS will recognise the device". Which it does.
That sounds correct and what I remember. Apogee uses the stock OSX driver.

Quote:
Originally Posted by enuenu View Post
Rolling back the OS sounds like a big job that could result in other unpredictable effects on my system. I'm guessing security issues would be a concern, as would compatibility with a whole lot of other Apple apps.
If you have a backup disk image of an old system it would be as simple as cloning it back to an active hard drive. If you don't treat your OS install like a resume and make backup clones like that... then it can spiral into hours installing everything manually from scratch. (Hint: Start making backups!)


Quote:
Originally Posted by enuenu View Post
Note that I still can't install the EFI. Part way through the attempt at installation the system tells me I need to be running 10.9.5 to install the file listed on the Apple support Website as the update to my machine's firmware???
I'll have to look this one up. I need to check out the new 10.12 update and see if they fixed their new trackpad feature too (the light tap = drag lock bit that's currently messed up).

I'm currently going back and forth between 10.6 and 10.10 systems at present for audio. I just blasted an additional 10.12 system on my laptop to check it out and act like I'm keeping up. I'd strongly recommend waiting on 10.12 right now from what I've seen too.
Rule of thumb in audio is to hang back an install or two on the OS unless there's a specific need.
__________________
Mac Pro 8x3.33GHz i7, 16GB, 256GB SSD(OS, apps), 3x2TB 7200 HD(data); MacBook Pro 2.8GHz, 6GB, 128GB SSD HD(OS, apps), 750GB 7200 HD(data); 2xTrue Precision 8; Apogee AD-16; 2xMOTU 828mk3, Evolution UC-33e; Faderport; WiRanger, iPad & the analog mixer has retired

Last edited by serr; 05-17-2017 at 11:46 AM.
serr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2017, 02:39 AM   #14
enuenu
Human being with feelings
 
enuenu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Orstraylya
Posts: 283
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by serr View Post
I see you're running some aggregate device configuration there. Sometimes using multiple interfaces together in an aggregate results in increased latency at the same settings. You may need to switch to only using the Apogee for the live sound work.
Thanks again. I will try and absorb the rest of your detailed response over the next few days. Just on the aggregate device, it's the only way I could get the Jam as input and BT headphones as output.

The frustration for a low tech like me is that I previously used Reaper without problems and barely touched a thing in Reaper. I also find it more than a coincidence that Garage Band is experiencing exactly the same latency problem when it never did so in the past either. On top of this, my system is generally running very slowly, it's painful. I check the Activity Monitor and the CPU is barely being used. However even menu selections take forever. I spend 99% of my time staring at a spinning beach ball or waiting for frozen screens to respond to my commands (without any beach ball action).
enuenu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2017, 07:53 AM   #15
serr
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 5,887
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by enuenu View Post
Just on the aggregate device, it's the only way I could get the Jam as input and BT headphones as output.
That would be true and that's how it's done.

Hmmm... bluetooth headphones. Red flag there. That device likely has a large minimum lag and it's slowing the whole aggregate down. You may find that piece of gear doesn't make the cut for live sound work.

What's your round trip latency on the system with only your main interface at the lowest stable block size you can run?
__________________
Mac Pro 8x3.33GHz i7, 16GB, 256GB SSD(OS, apps), 3x2TB 7200 HD(data); MacBook Pro 2.8GHz, 6GB, 128GB SSD HD(OS, apps), 750GB 7200 HD(data); 2xTrue Precision 8; Apogee AD-16; 2xMOTU 828mk3, Evolution UC-33e; Faderport; WiRanger, iPad & the analog mixer has retired
serr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2017, 12:55 AM   #16
enuenu
Human being with feelings
 
enuenu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Orstraylya
Posts: 283
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by serr View Post
That would be true and that's how it's done.
Hmmm... bluetooth headphones. Red flag there. That device likely has a large minimum lag and it's slowing the whole aggregate down. You may find that piece of gear doesn't make the cut for live sound work.
Note that the latency was exactly the same when used with headphones that plugged directly into the iMac.

Quote:
Originally Posted by serr View Post
What's your round trip latency on the system with only your main interface at the lowest stable block size you can run?
Forgive my ignorance, but you've lost me there. How would I calculate that latency time? How do I determine the lowest stable block size I can run?

Thanks for your patience and persistence.
enuenu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2017, 01:15 AM   #17
enuenu
Human being with feelings
 
enuenu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Orstraylya
Posts: 283
Default

Success! No ideas how or why but it's working now. One track with VST on my bass, latency seems OK. All good with drum VST running too.

(EDIT) On reflection, maybe it was something to do with the aggregate device including BT headphones as you suggested. The latency was there previously when other headphones were plugged directly into the iMac, so I assumed the BT cans were not the culprit. However I've been through so many iterations of Audio MIDI Setup that maybe the current configuration (Jam 96k as input + inbuilt output as aggregate device with headphones plugged directly into iMac) is the only configuration that works and it's possibly the first time I've used it. There has to be a logical explanation why it suddenly works and the changes in aggregate device settings in OSX and audio preferences in Reaper must be it. (END EDIT)

I need to do some reading on Preferences.
Should I tick "Request sample/block size" and specify these values?
Where should I be configuring settings with regard to latency?
It seems there is a lot about preferences I need to learn to make Reaper run as efficiently as possibly with my hardware and OS.

Thanks very much for your assistance.

Last edited by enuenu; 05-19-2017 at 03:12 AM. Reason: I think I know what was wrong now
enuenu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2017, 08:36 AM   #18
serr
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 5,887
Default

Sounds like you are starting to discover the controls!

1st choice:
Control both system sample rate and system latency from the DAW control panel.
Only defer to other apps or control panel apps if a device demands it. Reaper gives you all possible choices.

Look up "loop back test" for determining your system latency.
In short, you play a sample (with an easy to see waveform peak when you zoom in) and record it in a new track. Zoom in and note the delay between the original and the recording of it playing through the system.

If you are doing live sound work (which includes live performance), your goal is to have a stable system with all the processing (plugins) you wish to use. You'll find a minimum block size that you are still stable at. The caveat is that the total round trip latency of a live system needs to be less than 11ms.

Extreme good example: You discover that with all the plugins you want to use, that you get < 11ms at a 128 sample block size and further still have stable operation down to a 64 sample block size. Lots of headroom.

Not so good: You discover that you need a 128 sample block size just to have stable operation but the latency at that block size is > 11ms. This scenario calls for a hardware upgrade somewhere! Either the interface has too high a minimum latency or the computer is lower performing (like a machine with an older 5400rpm HDD for one example).

Determine the latency/performance at different sample rates. 48k is usually the sweet spot for live use. Lowest latency with the lowest processing power needs. There may be exceptions for the odd interface so test it.

Finally, if live sound is the job, get the right accessories. Put a SSD in the computer. Get an interface with lower latency right out of the box. Look at firewire or thunderbolt models (lots of older stuff out there if you're on a budget too). Don't struggle with a budget USB unit that barely makes latency needs with the computer compromised with a too low to really use latency setting.

Hope that helps!

That computer with a SSD and the right audio interface should be able to run 20-40 channel live systems or run 200+ track studio mixes.

Read up on all this in the manual and the mysteries will clear up and you will find you have a very powerful machine. Reaper is more like a standard transmission vs. an auto. You have to learn to drive stick as it were. But then you get to do more. But if you don't, you'll be stuck in first gear!
__________________
Mac Pro 8x3.33GHz i7, 16GB, 256GB SSD(OS, apps), 3x2TB 7200 HD(data); MacBook Pro 2.8GHz, 6GB, 128GB SSD HD(OS, apps), 750GB 7200 HD(data); 2xTrue Precision 8; Apogee AD-16; 2xMOTU 828mk3, Evolution UC-33e; Faderport; WiRanger, iPad & the analog mixer has retired
serr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2017, 06:53 PM   #19
enuenu
Human being with feelings
 
enuenu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Orstraylya
Posts: 283
Default

Thanks serr. You've saved my bacon and provided some great direction to help me expand my knowledge. Much appreciated
enuenu is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:50 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.