Monitoring question...anybody try this plug-in?

[adouglas]

http://www.112db.com/redline/monitor/

It's a mastering plug-in that's supposed to simulate actual studio monitors when using headphones.

I'm just at the point where I'm getting happy with my mixes, but my headphones are not representative of how they sound after I burn them to CD. That's a bit frustrating, and I've wasted quite a few discs tweaking to try to get it right. I haven't gotten to the point yet where I can tell by listening what a mix that will eventually sound good on CD sounds like in my headphones.

I'm thinking I need to start mastering using actual studio monitors, but there are logistical problems. I have no workstation...I do everything sitting on my couch, plus noise can be a real issue in my house.

I just ran across a mention of that studio monitor simulation plug-in and was wondering if it can get me closer without having to go buy more gear. I realize that it's not possible for this to be identical to the real thing...just wondering if it's worth investigating and if anyone has had any experience.

[valem]

I would recommend you try the plugin out. If you click on the demo tab you can try it out for 30 days for free.

[Jonas_Eriksson_Swe]

There are similar free plug ins as well, I have used this one http://refinedaudiometrics.com/products-hdphx.shtm (assuming you're on Windows). And for macos http://www.midnightwalrus.com/Canz3D/ seems interesting tough I haven't tried it (it's $10 to register).

My advice after doing a lot of mixing on headphones is to avoid it and mix on speakers whenever possible (I even prefer using bad speakers at low volume to headphones). I don't know how many times I've done hours of mixing of headphones just to realize that it sounds bad on speakers.

Just my two cents, of course.

If do end up trying 112db plug, please let us know how you like it. (God knows it would be great if I could mix on headphones...)

Regards,
- Jonas

[hq9000]

Originally Posted by Jonas_Eriksson_Swe

There are similar free plug ins as well, I have used this one http://refinedaudiometrics.com/products-hdphx.shtm (assuming you're on Windows).

Just have tried this one at work on my cheap headphones - the difference is practically inaudible. It actually required to send hard panned signal to this plug to conciously hear any diffrence - it adds kind of delayed signal to the opposite channell.

Gonna try this during mixing in more appropriate environment.

[Doughboy]

Cool....I just downloaded the demo of the Redline one....I haven't tried it yet...but..can't wait. Thanks!

[dj! (112dB)]

Hi there,

it's dj! of 112dB. Just wanted to say thanks for your interest in Redline Monitor.

I don't want to spam this forum with advertising on how great we think our product is, so just two small pointers for those interested.

There's been a lot of similar discussions on other forums about RM, and in case you'd like to read what people there have to say about it (including some who used it to do entire mixes on headphones) we've collected a few quotes at http://112dB.com/redline/monitor/?kudos. Links to the forum posts are included so you can verify and read the originating discussions for yourself.

Also I'd be happy to explain here why RM beats all existing (though often free) plugins that claim to work similar magic--just say the word!

Thanks again & take care,

-- dj!

[jcrouse]

hey all,

i'm attempting to try this out. i've unpacked the zip file and have located the .dll file, but what do i do with it? i don't have a lot of plugins so it looks like instead of automatically finding a folder, it just made one.

someone help? i'm obviously new

thanks in advance

JC

[Grimthane]

Somewhere you will have a folder with your VST plugins in it. It's probably C:Programs\Steinberg\VstPlugins or some such, but the easiest way is just to search for "vst" and find the folder with .dll files in it. (You can find the location in the Reaper Prefs, but I tend to get lost in there!)

Put your new .dll in the vst folder, then restart Reaper and you're set. The first time you use it you'll need the demo licence file handy that you should have downloaded with the .dll

[dj! (112dB)]

Redline Monitor installs into your current VstPlugins folder, or \Program Files\VstPlugins\112dB if it fails to determine the current folder. I'm not that familiar with Reaper but I suppose you can set the path to your VST plugins--or alternatively just move Redline Monitor.dll to your preferred location.

Upon startup Redline Monitor will ask you for a license, just navigate to the .xml demo license you received by email and you're set.

Peace,

-- dj!

[TonE]

Originally Posted by Jonas_Eriksson_Swe

My advice after doing a lot of mixing on headphones is to avoid it and mix on speakers whenever possible (I even prefer using bad speakers at low volume to headphones). I don't know how many times I've done hours of mixing of headphones just to realize that it sounds bad on speakers.

Did you mix in mono on headphones?

[Jonas_Eriksson_Swe]

Originally Posted by TonE

Did you mix in mono on headphones?

Yeah, I've tried mono as well as a bunch of the plugs mentioned above but for me I always end up changing the stuff I've done on headphones when I listen on monitors so I've decide to not mix on phones just to save time (that I can spend making music : )

Maybe others can make mixes that translate to differents systems on headphones but I've come to the conclusion tha I can't. (Unfortunatley, since I've got access to my headphones much more often than I can use my monitors...)

Regards,
- Jonas

[dub3000]

i edit and comp on headphones, do 50% of my mix on one speaker at super low volume in mono, and the rest moderately loud through mains. i think it's good to keep switching to keep yourself objective about the sound.

[yep]

You can spend $70 and more time and self-doubt on a plugin, or save up another $70 and buy a pair of lower-end studio monitors. My sense is that this is a choice between spending a larger amount of money vs throwing away a smaller amount of money.

I have not tried that plugin, so I can't comment on it, but my advice is to make monitors the first thing to splurge on and the last thing to compromise on. You'll thank yourself. Anything else is like trying to alter your TV picture to compensate for wearing the wrong glasses.

Jonas' experience is pretty much universal among anyone who has ever tried mixing on headphones and then switched to actual studio monitors. I don't really have much experience with the bottom of the studio monitor market, but people who get them seem to universally rave about the difference. Whether they hold up to kilobuck professional monsters hardly matters if they blow away headphones and home stereos.

[Grimthane]

I totally hear you, yep. No doubt decent monitors make life way easier.

Problem is, lots of folk, lots of the time can't use them. If that's just a money problem, I'd agree with you - save up and do yourself a favour.

Unfortunately, there are plenty who, if they are going to mix at all, have to do it in dorm rooms, near intolerant partners, while the TV's on, while the baby's sleeping etc.

That means that anything that increases the amount you can usefully do on headphones, is a really good thing (so you don't have to keep waiting for that precious time by yourself).

Of course, you will need to listen on speakers, ideally really good ones. But if you can actually get in the ballpark on phones, and not have to go back and fix all the eq and compression, that would be handy. Fixing panning and reverb I suspect will always have to wait, but if the sound and groove are there from a phones mix, I'd settle for that.

[Doughboy]

well.....I mixed a tune the other day and I was using this plug in for the first time. (the demo). Ya see, I have a real decent set of Event monitor speakers down stairs in my music room/studio.....but.....these days, everything I do is pretty much on my lap top.....and....I'm always liked using headphones to monitor..don't ask me why...sooo....I can sit in my recliner upstairs now and mix. I know it's not right. But anyway.....sooooo, I liked the plug in.....I actually liked it alot. I just don't think I could see myself spending $70 though. If it was $35 I would get it......I'm not saying it's not worth it.....I'm just sayin' I don't want to spend that much.

[yep]

Originally Posted by Grimthane

I totally hear you, yep. No doubt decent monitors make life way easier...

Something I said in another thread in this very forum:

Even though I'm going to disagree with your premise, I thank you for bringing the topic up.

You gotta do what you gotta do, and if it works, go with it. But my experience is that it is very difficult to make primary decisions with headphones, whether tracking or mixing, especially on stuff like electric guitar.

Headphones obviously exaggerate the soundstage, but they also tend to deliver exaggerated fletcher-munson effects, even at low-ish volume levels. Things that sound rich, full-bodied, and "big" on headphones have a way of sounding tinny and muffled on playback with regular speakers. Detail and presence evaporates, and electric guitars (for example) often sound excessively over-driven and nasally when you play back the tracks in the car or on a stereo.

There is nothing wrong with monitoring at conversation-level volume or below, in fact it is often desirable to do so. If you live in a circumstance where even conversation-level sound is too loud, then it's going to be hard to make a serious go of recording, but people have done it all with headphones.

I actually think that eq and compression are the hardest things to get right on headphones. You can kinda guess at panning and be in the ballpark, and generally overcompensate on reverb a little and come out pretty good.

And more to the point, if you live in a situation where conversation-level is too loud, how much can you really accomplish at all? Of course you gotta do what you gotta do, but even still I would encourage you to save the $70 towards a more music-friendly living arrangement, because that is going to be a severe impediment in the long run (or even the short run). Being a musician who cannot make even conversation-level music is like being a swimmer in the Sahara.

Do what you gotta do, but at some point you need to at least make some perfunctory concessions to the stuff you care about. And the tighter money is, the more I would advise saving it instead of wasting it on junk.

[Grimthane]

Originally Posted by yep

Headphones obviously exaggerate the soundstage, but they also tend to deliver exaggerated fletcher-munson effects, even at low-ish volume levels. Things that sound rich, full-bodied, and "big" on headphones have a way of sounding tinny and muffled on playback with regular speakers. Detail and presence evaporates, and electric guitars (for example) often sound excessively over-driven and nasally when you play back the tracks in the car or on a stereo.

I don't really understand this. I accept that this may be the case, but I don't understand the cause.

Phones obviously have issues with pan and reverb because they present a drastically different soundstage to monitors. But why would you get eq problems?

If you have flattering audiophile phones or cheapo ipod buds, no doubt you'll get issues, but to my superficial understanding a decent set of phones should be no worse, and potentially rather better than budget monitors for eq.

Chest-thumping bass is perhaps not easy to guess on phones, but then it isn't on quiet monitors either.

Compression I can understand even less. How do phones upset perception of volume? I guess if you have eq problems then you can't get anything else right, but if you're happy with the eq (or compensating for it on the 2-bus!), then I can't see how the phones can mess you up.

When I hear folk saying that mixing on phones is tough, I naively wonder whether that comes from occasional experiences where they have been away from their beloved monitors. In this situation I can imagine even a pro will take a while to be able to compensate, and chances are they don't have a while.

Of course it may be that there are pros out there who have rigorously tried out quality phones for weeks before giving up in disgust :-D

I have a set of DT231s that are very musical and pleasant to listen through, but useless for mixing. OTOH, I find my DT250s not too bad. Mind you that could be because my mixes suck so badly that I can't hear the problem!

[yep]

Originally Posted by Grimthane

I don't really understand this. I accept that this may be the case, but I don't understand the cause...

I don't think this can be thought through. I don't think the arguments and ideas really matter all that much, because the difference in results is just so obvious. It's like trying to argue why frozen orange juice *should* taste just as good as fresh-squeezed. If you'd rather argue than taste them, you can probably prove that they're both the same.

I have really good, accurate headphones, multiple sets. Expensive, studio-grade headphones. I very much enjoy them, and like listening to music on them. I use them while mixing and recording to check details and to zero in on specific things. But mixes done on them just don't sound the same on other speakers. Get it PERFECT, POWERFUL, IMMACULATE on the headphones, and then play it in the car the next day and it sounds fizzy and tinny and weak with flabby, uneven bass.

Just doesn't happen. Instead of trying to think it through, buy a set of monitors that come with a return policy, and see if your mixing doesn't improve dramatically. That will save you and me both a lot time arguing.

Cheers.

[yep]

I realized my last post was a little snide, so here's a quick attempt at an answer: air has capacitance, and impedance, and reactance. Sound waves traveling through open air are affected in nonlinear, frequency- and dynamics-dependent ways.

Headphones create a kind of built-in hype that I know of no way to circumvent. Everything sounds better, more full-bodied, more phase-coherent, more detailed with headphones. Decisions become much vaguer and harder to make-- you can hear the effect of eq, but you don't know whether it's good or bad.

That's my experience, anyway.

[Grimthane]

Thanks for the comments. As I say, I don't dispute that monitors are the way to go.

But if someone could just design the perfect anti-hype plugin for phones.....

[dj! (112dB)]

Originally Posted by Grimthane

But if someone could just design the perfect anti-hype plugin for phones.....

You're looking at it!

Seriously, if I had to choose I too would pick a good set of nearfields over a pair of headphones (with or without Redline Monitor) any day of the week. But both have their own merits, and being able to choose depending on the situation is even better.

Not to mention that some simply don't have the luxury of good nearfields at listening volume in an acoustically decent room.

Peace,

-- dj!

[hux]

I travel a LOT for work, monitors just aren't always an option for me. I know monitors would be better, but anything that gets me closer in the cans is a plus.

[Petersko]

If you're going to spend any significant time mixing through headphones, go find the current thread on high frequency hearing loss. Then look up "tinnitus".

[drillbit]

I just tried the demo and I'm impressed. It's a lot better than the free ones I have tried. It makes it all sound more solid, like decent monitors do. It's not perfect, but the best yet.

I came up with a neat technique using it. Often VSTi synths have severe panning and chorus. The sound is great but the sounds are so left and right, basically too wide. This plugin is great for bringing in a synth sounds and making it a bit more solid. It seems to work better than just panning things in a bit. I haven't noticed any phase problems.

If they continue to develop it (eg. version 2 later on). Then this would definitely be worth investing in.

[PAPT]

Originally Posted by drillbit

I just tried the demo and I'm impressed. It's a lot better than the free ones I have tried. It makes it all sound more solid, like decent monitors do. It's not perfect, but the best yet.

I came up with a neat technique using it. Often VSTi synths have severe panning and chorus. The sound is great but the sounds are so left and right, basically too wide. This plugin is great for bringing in a synth sounds and making it a bit more solid. It seems to work better than just panning things in a bit. I haven't noticed any phase problems.

If they continue to develop it (eg. version 2 later on). Then this would definitely be worth investing in.

You say this as if you think the plugin that effects what you hear in the phones (reducing the stereo spread )is actually changing the mix.
If the instrument is too wide then it is still too wide even if the plug makes it sound OK in the headphones.
Maybe I am misunderstanding.

Plugins like this will mix some of the left channel into the right channel and some of the right into the left (usually with some delay). This makes headphones sound more like speakers. This helps you make better panning decisions using headphones which normally exaggerate the stereo spread by isolating the 2 channels.

While it is difficult to impossible to make a finished product with just headphones, I think it is equally difficult to make a finished product with just speakers. The 2 show up different problems with a mix.
For instance the bass may sound great on speakers and then be overwhelming and stereo field filling (even when the bass is mono) in phones.

[drillbit]

Ok, I'm not getting all technical with this plugin, I'm just saying, to my ears (well and a stereo scope) it does nice things to overly panned things. This is not it's intended use it it works and sounds good.

Putting a bit of the left speaker in the right speaker (and the opposite) is decreasing the stereo field and There are knobs on the plugin that lets you change the amount.

I agree about the use of headphones being important. They are all just monitors and people are listening to headphones more and more so they are an important reference. Hearing defined bass is more to do with volume and distance of monitoring as it takes a while for heavy subs to express their waveform (wig waves, man). I mix on Adam A7, 12" sub (too big) a set of Tannoy HiFi speakers and some decent Pc speakers with no bass boost. I also have about 5 pairs of different headphones, my favs are $200 in-ears (UlitmateEars).

Side note:
The Argument that pisses me off is the old NS10 argument; "If it sounds good on NS10s it sounds good on anything". I think this is bullshit. If it sounds good on NS10s it sounds good on crappy 80's HiFi speakers. They are a worthy reference, but I wouldn't want to write on them. I write for the club and NS10 don't even go there.

rant over ;-p

[PAPT]

And, as for the Headphones and ear damage issue that always gets brought up...use some sense and listen at reasonable levels.
You will get ear damage from speakers also if you listen too loud for too long.

[dj! (112dB)]

Originally Posted by drillbit

If they continue to develop it (eg. version 2 later on). Then this would definitely be worth investing in.

Just wanted to say thanks for your praise and yes, we're definitely going to--in fact, are already--continuing development on Redline Monitor. Currently in the work are improvements on the core algorithm, much more comprehensive HRTF (the Distance control) possibilities and adjustments, and support for head tracking to allow almost "real" localization.

Also if you have any comments and/or suggestions for future development we'd much like to hear from you. Either here, on our own forum, or through email is fine. Even by carrier pigeon if that's your preferred means of communication.

Take care,

-- dj!

[llsmusic]

I just started using the plug on my mixes. I really like the plug. All you need is a good set of headphones, and you there. I use sennheiser hd 280 pro. I reference the mix in the car and it sounds alright. I normally use M-audio's BX8's, but had to sell them, due to the economy. All and all I like the plug, just make sure your constantly switching between mono and stero fields. Also don't ignore the phase either. My 2 cents

[mknapp]

Is there anyway to incorporate some sort of spectral analysis of the headphones one is using to
make them "flat" and then use the plug in that would be awesome!!!

[Jeahvel]

Gang...

Just a quick suggestion...

You can get a great pair of powered studio monitors for around $150.00 (maybe even less if you're a savvy shopper). The monitors I use are made by Wharfedale Professional. The model number is the Diamond Studio 8.1 ProActive. Hands down the best monitors you're going to find to fit into a budget minded studio.

Go to the Wharfedale website (http://www.wharfedalepro.com/Home/Pr...6/Default.aspx) and check them out. If there's a dealer near you where you can go to hear them, do yourself a favor and take a listen. You'll be amazed at the accuracy and clarity...I know I was and they have made a world of difference in my studio.

I guess what I'm really saying is that your $75.00 puts you half way to a really good pair of monitors and should be something to consider.

Just my two cents...

PS...they have a model (8.2 ProActive) with a larger woofer for around $180.00...but I really liked the 8.1's better. I found the bass to be much smoother.

[Smurf]

I have used the Rl for a few mixes and to tell the truth the results were about the same with it or without it when played back thru various speakers...maybe I am too use to doing mixes 60 to 70% of the time on headphones.....

One comment that stuck with me after sharing a before & after mix with some friends was that the RL mix sounded like the musicians were on a smaller stage, or more in the center of a smaller room.....

[yep]

Originally Posted by mknapp

Is there anyway to incorporate some sort of spectral analysis of the headphones one is using to
make them "flat" and then use the plug in that would be awesome!!!

I'm kind of speculating here, but doing so based on a lot of experience of trying to get headphone mixes to sound right:

I think the real limiting factor is that hearing sound in open air is a visceral, full-body experience. The ears are only a focal point. As I type this, there is some random 80s song on the radio, and the bass is actually a tactile, physical sensation in my chest. The hairs on the back of my neck and my arms respond to the vocals. I can and do move my head around and hear the soundstage in real 3-D space. And the radio is not loud, just conversation level.

I very much enjoy listening to music on headphones, and I find them very useful during mixing for checking details and so on, but they don't offer the same experience as open-air music. More to the point, the big problem with mixing on headphones is that stuff that sounds good on speakers almost always sounds just as good on headphones, but the reverse is emphatically not true. So a good "speaker mix" is generally just a plain good mix, while a good "headphone mix" tends to collapse on real speakers. The bass is all wrong, the stereo spread seems weird and some instruments seem to either jump out or disappear, and so on.

Moreover, as others have pointed out above, real monitors don't have to be all that expensive. If you're on a super-tight budget, Sears is closing out Tivoli Audio iSongBook stereos for around $80 (in the US anyway), which are nearly as portable as headphones and are one of the few consumer systems accurate enough for basic monitoring (along with Wharfedales, by all accounts). I think there are similarly-priced low-end monitors from companies like Tascam, KRK, M-Audio etc.

I don't mean to beat up on dj, who seems like a nice guy who cares about his customers' experience and who is trying to deliver something that a lot of people want, but at $75 this seems awfully close to the tipping point. I fear that there may be people on a very tight budget who have decent 'phones who see this as a way to "upgrade" their headphones. And it is exactly people who can afford to buy very little who most need to make every purchase count and not waste money on halfway measures.

I suppose if you live on a submarine and record electronic instruments exclusively, or have some other circumstance where even conversation-level sound is too loud, then headphone monitoring might be a necessity. And something that got you halfway to the experience of sound in open air might be worth the scratch.

Anyway, I haven't tried the plugin, so I'm just kind of offering theoretical rambling at this point.