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Old 08-23-2014, 06:57 AM   #1
franV
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Default High frequency hearing loss and Mixing

When you are twenty the normal hearing range is 20HZ - 20 Khz.
At 40 your high frequency (usually) dwindles down to 14-15Khz.

This topic sparked my interest via a reddit thread.

To quote the person
"I know most of us start out being able to hear up to about 20kHz, and that maximum naturally decreases with age. What about someone who can only hear about to, say 15kHz? What about 10kHz? My father for instance can only hear up to 5kHz, and I'm at about 15kHz or so.
Would my father ever have a chance at being able to learn how to make good mixes? What about me (with the 15kHz cut-off)? Are there any famous cases of successful mixing engineers having below average hearing ranges? How can you really perfect something when your view of it is more limited than that of the audience you're making it for?"

http://www.reddit.com/r/audioenginee...r_how_high_of/

If you want to do a quick high frequency test go here.
http://www.audiocheck.net/audiotests...ycheckhigh.php

I can only pick up high frequency from 14Khz.

For fun what is yours?
And how would this kind of range affect my mixing?
Is it really as bad as the reddit comment below?



Redditor comment
"Well, replying as a professional audio engineer, I'd tell you that 15KHz+ is extremely important. A lot of your air and clarity rests there, and if you've got a muffled high end, the track will sound muddy almost 100% of the time.
However, also replying as a hobby producer, I'd say to roll with it and maybe try some bass music or something like that. I believe you can get an adequate mix with hearing loss from 15k+, but it won't be as easy as it would be if you could hear up there properly."
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Old 08-23-2014, 07:04 AM   #2
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Inaudible above 17k for me. And I'm 40.
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Old 08-23-2014, 07:15 AM   #3
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Check the ages of your favorite engineers. You might be surprised.
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Old 08-23-2014, 07:21 AM   #4
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i miss some subtleties in old mixes of mine now which at first was depressing, then i realised i was clearly being too subtle if vast swathes of the population can't enjoy the mix..

should we be mixing for 5 year olds with perfect hearing but little appreciation for music or experienced ears that have a bit of 'wear' ?!

plus not alot important info above 14-15 just a bit of airy sizzle - which you can double check visually with spectral analysis or borrow some younger ears to check your mix near the end.

amazes me how we obsess about miniscule differences in AD converters then have vastly different hearing, which is what we use to make all the key decisions.
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Old 08-23-2014, 07:22 AM   #5
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Inaudible above 10k for me. And I'm 66.

Oh dear
so when my daughter (26) listens to something I made and tells me it hurts her ears, too shrill, it probably is.

My doctor tells me I have some hearing loss at high frequencies and as female voices are at higher frequences I dont hear my wife calling me. Of course, she doesn't believe my explanation and says I am stupid/deaf and not hearing her on purpose.
Which works most of the time..
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Old 08-23-2014, 07:23 AM   #6
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I can't hear anything above 13kHz - age 53.
But, I can still hear any note produced by a guitar or any synthesizer, so not worried about this. This might be an issue for the engineer who has to mix the next expected-to-go-platinum record, but for the rest of us it's not really a problem.
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Old 08-23-2014, 07:34 AM   #7
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13K for me at 63. So sadly I will never be an award winning engineer.

But digging a little deeper... what instruments (and voices) are the most problematic? Can analysers be used as substitutes? How?

I don't really want to give up.
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Old 08-23-2014, 07:58 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenK-msx View Post
i miss some subtleties in old mixes of mine now which at first was depressing, then i realised i was clearly being too subtle if vast swathes of the population can't enjoy the mix..
Very good point, i.e for who are we making the music for.
Also i let some family do the test as well and those that could hear those high frequencies, 20-19Khz, found it actually unpleasant. Maybe many more that can hear that frequency don't really enjoy it.
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Old 08-23-2014, 08:03 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by misc100 View Post
Inaudible above 10k for me. And I'm 66.

Oh dear
so when my daughter (26) listens to something I made and tells me it hurts her ears, too shrill, it probably is.
Are there not some kind of tools one can use to reduce the high frequency shrill without listening to it?
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Old 08-23-2014, 08:09 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by franV View Post
Are there not some kind of tools one can use to reduce the high frequency shrill without listening to it?
Well, maybe this could help out (Euphonia), designed for automatic spectrum balancing, but could also ground your listening environment including ears

Regards
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Old 08-23-2014, 08:12 AM   #11
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16K here. I'm 41.

Cheers,
Alex
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Old 08-23-2014, 08:15 AM   #12
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18 Khz max...30 years with heavy DJ experience in the past..oh i'm lucky...
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Old 08-23-2014, 08:18 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alex1073 View Post
16K here. I'm 41.

Cheers,
Alex
Likewise here.

I don't worry about it.If I can't hear it..why care about it
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Old 08-23-2014, 08:38 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmic View Post
Likewise here.

I don't worry about it.If I can't hear it..why care about it
Because if you cant hear the highs you most likely will overcompensate and boost them.

If everything sounds dull your tendency will be to over brighten.

For me 16k was clearly audible, 17k barely audible. I'm 44.
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Old 08-23-2014, 08:48 AM   #15
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13k.
I'm 56.
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Old 08-23-2014, 09:06 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magicbuss View Post
Because if you cant hear the highs you most likely will overcompensate and boost them.

If everything sounds dull your tendency will be to over brighten.

For me 16k was clearly audible, 17k barely audible. I'm 44.
Nah..I stopped overcompensating ages ago.My trademark sound involves rolling off the high end on everything to be on the safe side
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Old 08-23-2014, 09:28 AM   #17
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12k @65 ... so not so bad.

Been around loud bands for years.

High freqs will also colour the lower freq sounds so even if you don't actually hear those high frequencies, you will hear some of their effect on your mix.

dB
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Old 08-23-2014, 09:43 AM   #18
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Interesting test. I like the idea of having the voiceover there as a reference. It stops us from turning the volume up to hear the higher range (I can hear 17K on a generator if I turn up the volume.... poor tweeters!!)

16K for me at 43.
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Old 08-23-2014, 10:13 AM   #19
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LOL, don't forget guys it doesn't count if you can hear 16k @ 180dB.
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Old 08-23-2014, 10:24 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
LOL, don't forget guys it doesn't count if you can hear 16k @ 180dB.
There's a calibration file there (65 dBSPL).

http://www.audiocheck.net/testtones_...taudiogram.php

Cheers,
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Old 08-23-2014, 10:25 AM   #21
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13k, 57 years old. Ouch. Last time I tested I could hear up to 16k but it dropped down an octave.
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Old 08-23-2014, 10:29 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
LOL, don't forget guys it doesn't count if you can hear 16k @ 180dB.
hahaha

Thats a good point
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Old 08-23-2014, 11:14 AM   #23
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I am 20, I could *just* hear 18k very very softly and 17k was where it felt normal. I've got tenitus but afaik that hasn't directly affected my hearing frequencies so much.
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Old 08-23-2014, 12:09 PM   #24
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16khz, 57 years. thats good ...

but: you dont hear with your ears. sounds funny, but it is so. your ears are only the pickups, so to say, and your brain renders the information.

so if you hear up unto lets say 15khz, there is no -48bb/octave steep low pass, its a smooth rolloff. so if you listen normally to music, your brain adjustes its frequencey response curve over the years. if your hearing isnt damaged, only worn out, your brain fills in the gaps.

look at the "golden ears", do you think they mix worse when they are over 30??? never. Quincy Jones, Bruce Swedien, Alan Parsons, Sir George Martin ... the list is endless.

btw, the difference between 20khz and 10khz seems to be a lot, but it isnt. its one octave, nothing more. so if one can hear up to 15khz, he cant hear the upper 5 semitones in a octave, where is nothing really happening, musically. the air you can hear if you shift 20khz center by 1-2db is the the tail that goes down to 5-10khz depending on the q of the eq. so air isnt in that most upper range as often assumed, its way more down.

have you ever heard e real tone with a frequency of lets say 16khz? you dont want to hear that, even it is relatively quiet. so dont worry about about normal hearing wear out. :-)))

... and if someone says, its harsh, well, maybe its harsh with way too much high end in it. mustnt be your hearing, mostly its the mixing. (see the famous thread of YEP here in this forum.) so compare your mixes to something similar commercial, and you will have a pretty much good idea if your high end is too cranked up or not.

so in the end: if you can still hear the music you like and you find it the way it should be everything is ok with your ears/brain. and dont crank the high end up so much ...
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Old 08-23-2014, 01:28 PM   #25
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12khz here at 60 years. I've played in bands and worked for 14 years in coal mining so I'm happy with that.

I guess the acid test is get your cat or dog to listen to it. My cat hates (almost) all of my music.
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Old 08-23-2014, 02:25 PM   #26
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16k, 45y.
I have a constant ringing in my ears, which I've just this minute discovered to be at around 14k.
I don't want to hear anything above that, thanks.

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Old 08-23-2014, 02:32 PM   #27
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13k here. 62 years old.. much rock and roll in my past and headphone use now. surprised I heard that much.
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Old 08-23-2014, 03:42 PM   #28
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Quote:
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look at the "golden ears", do you think they mix worse when they are over 30??? never. Quincy Jones, Bruce Swedien, Alan Parsons, Sir George Martin ... the list is endless.
Yep. Tons of old ears have put out better mixes than most of us will achieve.
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Old 08-23-2014, 06:12 PM   #29
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my hope was that science would yield us a hearing repair pill in time for me to need one.


just make the tiny little hairs in my ear grow back, how hard can it be.

f*ckers.
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Old 08-23-2014, 06:20 PM   #30
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They say it's all them little hairs dying off that makes you deaf....
All I know is, the older I get, the more hairs I have growing out of my ears, thicker and longer all the time, and yet I get deafer and deafer....
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Old 08-23-2014, 07:20 PM   #31
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on the test with the voice i got 14k but, when i did the blind test with he white noise i only managed to score 100% at 13K

I guess thats what years of working with power tools and playing in rock bands does for you, i wear ear mufs all the time now but didn't worry about my hearing when i was younger. Never thought i'd be mixing music, aaahh hindsight!!

Thats a bit of a worry, i'm 53, i better be carefull with those high freq boosts to get some "air" in future.


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Old 08-23-2014, 07:46 PM   #32
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.

One person I am sure has significant high frequency hearing loss is Neil Young,
having played loud and long for many many years.

So, what I don't understand is...
...How can he be pushing this "NEW" high resolution standard,
...AND how can he possibly hear the difference!

Needless to say, he has never subjected himself to a double-blind test!!

P.S. - I use a spectrum analyser to verify the HF content on my mixes.
If it has the expected roll-off above 15Khz then I do not worry too much about being able to hear beyond 15k.
I check the mix in both integrated mode (whole cut) and with 100mS window to look for "shrill" transients.

Of course I use my ears, but like Glasnost, I always "Trust but Verify".
It has to sound good and measure good as well.

Human senses are so easily fooled.

.
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Old 08-23-2014, 08:33 PM   #33
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What the hell are you guys listening to that is higher than 14Khz?????
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Old 08-23-2014, 09:21 PM   #34
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Nothing, obviously, and that's potentially a problem! If noises capable of distressing dogs and small children were to somehow find their way into our mixes, we'd kinda like to know about it.
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Old 08-23-2014, 09:49 PM   #35
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Same rule as with the HPF - set your LPF to just above where you can hear a difference. That high stuff is really nasty at high volumes.
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Old 08-23-2014, 11:21 PM   #36
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I tried to take the test but nothing ever came on... oh well, back to mixing...
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Old 08-24-2014, 02:05 AM   #37
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It's really not such a big deal - very few instruments can produce anything above 15-16K, dynamic mics can't capture anything above 15-16K, consumer speakers (even the bigger ones) often can't reproduce anything above 16K. Many albums have the LP filter at 16.5 - 18K. It looks like many people work with synthetic sounds and see the frequency content in their analyzers all the way up to 20K (which is there but it's really questionable how audible it is). There's an ITL in which Dave Pensado sweeps the LP filer slowly all the way down to 12K and he said: "This could almost be sold like this." So, no worries guys If you can hear 13K I guess you're O.K. (just don't mess with the top end (or better said, the air), which is unnecessary anyway most of the times).

Cheers,
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Old 08-24-2014, 03:36 AM   #38
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17K - 36y

I can feel 18K as pressure, but not a tone.
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Old 08-24-2014, 03:48 AM   #39
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Quote:
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It's really not such a big deal - very few instruments can produce anything above 15-16K
Is that strictly true? I would have thought that harmonics would extend well beyond the range of human hearing.
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Old 08-24-2014, 06:52 AM   #40
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Quote:
thought that harmonics would extend well beyond the range of human hearing
That was sort of the point wasn't it?
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