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Old 08-08-2010, 11:44 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by pcmusicpro View Post
I'm just starting understanding pan laws but I can notice this is a serious thing to be corrected ASAP.
Ed.
I think the seriousness of it comes to light if you try active panning for the effect of it. The result is audibly not what you would usually be looking for. Collapsing to mono would further illustrate the level changes that can result with the current panning tapers available.

Last edited by John Lance; 08-08-2010 at 11:59 AM.
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Old 08-09-2010, 02:42 AM   #82
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I voted yes on the FR, though for me this would only really be a workflow improvement if implemented with the "proper stereo panning" request.

Until then, I'll be relying on free tools like Flux Stereo Tool.

Cheers for the insight and detailed explanation.
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Old 08-09-2010, 07:06 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Arbiter View Post
I voted yes on the FR, though for me this would only really be a workflow improvement if implemented with the "proper stereo panning" request....
+1
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Old 08-10-2010, 02:52 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arbiter View Post
I voted yes on the FR, though for me this would only really be a workflow improvement if implemented with the "proper stereo panning" request.

Until then, I'll be relying on free tools like Flux Stereo Tool.

Cheers for the insight and detailed explanation.
Same here but i use Stereoerets from DDMF, not free but very stable and less cpu hungry then Flux.
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Old 08-12-2010, 02:16 PM   #85
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Wow. We went from 40 votes to over 70 in a couple of days! Thanks for the support guys (and girls of course!). Now let's just hope justin, schwa or anyone else from the dev team take notice.

Proper stereo panning/dual panning is certainly quite necessary as well, but that's a different FR (which just about everyone has already voted on). I also hope the tapers on the volume faders will be fixed as well (no, the shape control does not help at all)
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Old 08-12-2010, 02:54 PM   #86
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I asked Airon to include your FR in his FR Greatest Hits list The devs will take notice (they probably have already), I'm confident of that
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Old 08-25-2010, 03:44 PM   #87
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Added a (partial) vst implementation (see link in first post). No GUI yet, and the parameter display is currently in the range of 0..1, (need to hack Iplug a little to get custom parameter display...), also the reaper taper isn't available (if you want that as an option for comparison, try the js versions).

In any case, it should be a more CPU friendly than the JS versions, and higher quality than the second JS version (which uses a LUT for speed but no interpolation which might result in zipper noise).
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Old 09-04-2010, 09:54 AM   #88
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For the Feature Request: And please to be sure that the sends panning works properly also.

I'm trying to do a simple lead guitar center stage and then pan to the left when the lead work is done to where some grace note and light rhythm elements are to be performed, and the FX that used to work nicely in dead center now simply utterly fail to a disgraceful excess.

Initially, if the panning actually worked properly, FX levels should not need adjusted during the transition through several phrases, and only later should require modification to accommodate a particular change. Right now it is an utter failure as soon as you pan left and a bit of work to get it to where it should be.

It is quite a workaround to get around this issue in Reaper. Since I have alternatives, that will be the easier workaround for now, but I would like for this to work.

Since this attempt was done with the current Reaper panning, and with -3dB "equal power", the FX sends panning should have tracked right along with the current Reaper bug concerning this, and there should not have been an issue with this relationship. Am I missing something, or do we have an additional bug to work through here?

I've not tried the plugin.

Last edited by John Lance; 09-04-2010 at 10:46 AM. Reason: A bit more information
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Old 09-04-2010, 01:33 PM   #89
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well, that kind of depends on the effects on your group/buss. level-dependent effects like compressors, saturation and distortion should never be placed after the pan. if you want these kind of effects you would need to pan the main channel and the the send channel individually (and use a pre-pan send). for this, VCA type grouping would be useful (also an FR, see the FR greatest hits thread, linked somewhere here)
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Old 09-04-2010, 02:57 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by l0calh05t View Post
well, that kind of depends on the effects on your group/buss. level-dependent effects like compressors, saturation and distortion should never be placed after the pan. if you want these kind of effects you would need to pan the main channel and the the send channel individually (and use a pre-pan send). for this, VCA type grouping would be useful (also an FR, see the FR greatest hits thread, linked somewhere here)
I've got a post pan, post fader send going to a series of processing channels comprised of chorus, a few delays, and a verb: pretty std stuff I think. There are none of the level dependent things going on there. I understand these concepts well.

I'll check a few more things, probably run some summing tests to mono for overall level checks, but with the -3dB pan law selected I am ending up with a net increase on the FX when compared to the main signal, which should not be happening.

And a big +1 to a true VCA style grouping with a separate "track" for control. I've been thinking more on that lately and would probably like the capability to extend VCA control to panning (as a selection) aside from simply the fader levels being controlled, but that is a discussion for another place.
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Old 09-04-2010, 03:06 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Lance View Post
I've got a post pan, post fader send going to a series of processing channels comprised of chorus, a few delays, and a verb: pretty std stuff I think. There are none of the level dependent things going on there. I understand these concepts well.

I'll check a few more things, probably run some summing tests to mono for overall level checks, but with the -3dB pan law selected I am ending up with a net increase on the FX when compared to the main signal, which should not be happening.
that should definitely not be happening. if you can verify this, you should probably submit a bug report.

Quote:
And a big +1 to a true VCA style grouping with a separate "track" for control. I've been thinking more on that lately and would probably like the capability to extend VCA control to panning (as a selection) aside from simply the fader levels being controlled, but that is a discussion for another place.
yes, and that other place is http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=62623 and your vote goes here: http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=2817

and don't forget to vote for this FR, if you haven't already.
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Old 09-04-2010, 06:59 PM   #92
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The default track pan law is set to -3dB in the project settings. But I see that send pan laws are at 0dB. I wonder how this has happened (still getting used to Reaper here).

I've set that send pan law to -3dB and it works. I've changed it back and forth now and it works. It all just works now on this track.

I'm leaving it alone for now until I come across this again.

I voted on the VCA FR several weeks ago. Thanks!

Last edited by John Lance; 09-04-2010 at 07:10 PM.
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Old 09-09-2010, 05:42 AM   #93
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96 votes and still not popular. It would seem the devs are a bit arbitrary now, wouldn't it?
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Old 09-09-2010, 07:22 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by l0calh05t View Post
96 votes and still not popular. It would seem the devs are a bit arbitrary now, wouldn't it?
The editorial comments about the devs are not winning you any friends or gaining you any support for this.
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Old 09-09-2010, 11:44 AM   #95
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They're not going to add this FR to the current pre-release cycle. I don't think we should expect to see it until v4, which is apparently only a matter of a few months.

I'm sure they're aware of the FR, but there's not really much point in them commenting about it until it's nearing release. That's my take on things anyway
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Old 12-02-2010, 09:40 AM   #96
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Updated link for VST.
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Old 12-11-2010, 09:02 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by chip mcdonald View Post
Piling on: yeah, this should be changed.

BUT WHILE I HAVE YOUR ATTENTION,

an old FR: I would like the pan (and all knobs, actually), to have a more "damped" response. Meaning, less twitchy when I first drag on it - a slower response initially, then even, then a bit slower as I progress - since I'm wanting a more precise control as I reach where I want the panning to be.

I hate that when I "grab" a knob with the mouse I have to suddenly go into "fine motor control" mode when I most of the time only want to make a tiny alteration in value.

OR, when I close in on a value - I want to have more control. So effectively the throw of knob would be non-linear: slow (long) at first, then a little faster after a specified time (500ms?) then gradually slower (longer throw) again.

/ no, I'm not talking about the panning law, but *how* you adjust the panning.

I think you may be talking about velocity sensitivity on the mouse...the slower you move the mouse, the smaller the increments it adjusts in. A rapid movement of the mouse will take the control from limit to limit in fairly short order, but just slowly moving it will start tweaking in tiny increments. That would seem to be a decent way to accomplish the same thing, at any rate.

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Old 12-12-2010, 05:13 AM   #98
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I think you may be talking about velocity sensitivity on the mouse...the slower you move the mouse, the smaller the increments it adjusts in. A rapid movement of the mouse will take the control from limit to limit in fairly short order, but just slowly moving it will start tweaking in tiny increments. That would seem to be a decent way to accomplish the same thing, at any rate.

Scott
Much better than basing the rate on time IMO.
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Old 12-19-2010, 10:11 AM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by l0calh05t View Post
I also hope the tapers on the volume faders will be fixed as well (no, the shape control does not help at all)


Please let me remember this old request
http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=1994
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Old 12-19-2010, 10:31 AM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Lance View Post
And a big +1 to a true VCA style grouping with a separate "track" for control. I've been thinking more on that lately and would probably like the capability to extend VCA control to panning (as a selection) aside from simply the fader levels being controlled, but that is a discussion for another place.
This is accomplished using groups (Select a bunch of tracks, hit Shift+G, select group# and set properties).

If I understand correctly Groups cover VCA functionality, and so master group tracks can be automated without affecting slave track envelopes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Lance View Post
For the Feature Request: And please to be sure that the sends panning works properly also.

I'm trying to do a simple lead guitar center stage and then pan to the left when the lead work is done to where some grace note and light rhythm elements are to be performed, and the FX that used to work nicely in dead center now simply utterly fail to a disgraceful excess.
Wold this FR solve your problem?
http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=2103

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Old 12-20-2010, 01:27 AM   #101
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If I understand correctly Groups cover VCA functionality, and so master group tracks can be automated without affecting slave track envelopes.
It doesn't. Especially the automation will not work correctly.
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Old 01-10-2011, 06:14 AM   #102
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I support this FR
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Old 01-10-2011, 06:50 AM   #103
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I support this FR
Then you should check the pre-release section of the Forum
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Old 01-10-2011, 07:13 AM   #104
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Yes, sine taper will be coming soon (haven't had a chance to test yet, but I will. someday :/ )
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Old 08-15-2011, 05:19 AM   #105
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It's interesting, but this is one of the very first things I noticed when I started using REAPER. I had used (and beta tested) Samplitude for 3 years and noticed that adjusting pan in REAPER "felt" very strange to me.

Also, instead of a percentage (50% left), Samplitude uses a dB scale. For example a pan right would show as "L -6dB/ R 0dB". Just a thought.
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Old 08-15-2011, 08:01 AM   #106
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It's interesting, but this is one of the very first things I noticed when I started using REAPER. I had used (and beta tested) Samplitude for 3 years and noticed that adjusting pan in REAPER "felt" very strange to me.

Also, instead of a percentage (50% left), Samplitude uses a dB scale. For example a pan right would show as "L -6dB/ R 0dB". Just a thought.
This was implemented in v4.

You can use a dB scale. Change it in Options/Preferences/Appearance/VUMeters-Faders.
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Old 08-15-2011, 08:38 AM   #107
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OT alert: sidetracking here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by antiClick
This is accomplished using groups
VCA works by putting a "bias" against what is there. Fader VCA would only bias the existing fader settings AND the associated automations. So, you would then be able to have a group of items all set and submixed with their associated fx and post fader whatever sends, and subsequently be able to tweak the overall level of that grouping higher or lower through VCA style control, and all relationships to levels in that grouping along with those post fader auxiliary send levels will remain intact. Existing automation would not touched at the channels.

A "group" as in grouping a bunch of faders works, but is a bit klutzy for me to view and operate, and it doesn't work nearly so conveniently as I've just described for a true VCA style of implementation.

All of these channels going to a submix fader works, but only if you do not have post fader auxiliary sends off of the individual channels.

Only a true VCA style of implementation will work as a VCA. Workarounds are klutzy and don't meet the concept completely.

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Old 08-15-2011, 11:49 AM   #108
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Yep. There's a request for VCA functionality. See below.
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Old 08-15-2011, 05:36 PM   #109
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@Mercado - Thanks so much for the tip!

@Airon - Oh god yes, we need VCAs!
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Old 03-28-2012, 04:50 PM   #110
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Yes, sine taper will be coming soon (haven't had a chance to test yet, but I will. someday :/ )
Did this ever get implemented and if so where are the settings for it? I read a comment where someone was "loving the new sin taper" but I can't seem to find it.

Also, which pan law should I use as a project default if I want constant gain across the stereo field? I think it's supposed to be -3dB but I've noticed that the default on a new installation is 0dB and I think I've also read that to get "regular" -3dB behavior in Reaper you have to check gain compensation.

Thanks!!!
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Old 03-29-2012, 04:30 PM   #111
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So I was searching Google and found another reference to Reaper using sinusoidal taper panning starting in v4. I voted on the issue last night and saw that it does not appear to have been implemented...wondering which it is? I could not find a specific mention of it in any of the release notes for v4.x

I'm hoping that the new set of panning options is using the sinusoidal pattern by default and the old 'Reaper 3.x balance (deprecated)' option is the wierd one. This is what all my old projects are defaulted to, I'm going to save a new copy and remix at -3dB. I switched one last night and it really widened up, I guess because the sides got louder but it seemed more spacious. I tried -3dB with gain compensation checked and that seemed too extreme....

Edit: actually on closer look/listen I'm finding -3dB to sound better but drop my overall levels 3dB and -3dB w/ gain compensation to sound the same but keep original levels. Gonna go with that one...stereo verbs and delays are sounding huge!! I've been struggling with panning and width and placement in my mixes, think this may be the answer...

Edit: actually it seems like gain compensation is boosting my overall levels as much as it's dropping without it. I'm officially confused...

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Old 03-31-2012, 08:11 AM   #112
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OK I think I got it, found the info in another thread....down the rabbit hole (again!) for 48 hours trying to figure this one out Man I can't wait until I get all these basics under my belt and I can just have fun...
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Old 01-17-2013, 12:15 PM   #113
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So starting with v4 Reaper is using the sine taper? I didn't know that. I was using jsFader for so long... [big THANK YOU for that plugin JS!!!] I'm actually kinda used to it now. I actually wanted to purpose JS to make a little 8 channel console VST based on JS fader. It's not such a bad idea, huh? So we could route audio to that console and mix within it, 8 by 8 channels.

Cheers!
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Old 01-17-2013, 04:15 PM   #114
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Quote:
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So starting with v4 Reaper is using the sine taper? I didn't know that. I was using jsFader for so long... [big THANK YOU for that plugin JS!!!] I'm actually kinda used to it now. I actually wanted to purpose JS to make a little 8 channel console VST based on JS fader. It's not such a bad idea, huh? So we could route audio to that console and mix within it, 8 by 8 channels.

Cheers!
glad to see people find my plugins useful the pan in current reaper versions appears (from a quick check) to work correctly
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Old 05-01-2013, 11:14 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by l0calh05t View Post
glad to see people find my plugins useful the pan in current reaper versions appears (from a quick check) to work correctly
Any idea how to make a track with 0 width ( bass ) to appear wider? Thanks
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Old 05-02-2013, 01:40 PM   #116
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Oh yes, l0calh05t, your jsFader plugin come in really handy in EnergyXT and any other programs I might use that don't have proper panning law!

Thank you SO MUCH! I hope it will be available as a 64-bit one day.

I would also like to thank you for one of the best compressors out there, too... Thank you!
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Old 05-03-2013, 12:56 AM   #117
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Any idea how to make a track with 0 width ( bass ) to appear wider? Thanks
You could either use "mirrored" eqs on the left and right channel (not very drastic widening but mostly mono compatible) or delay one channel (but this yields comb filtering in mono and will shift your image towards the undelayed channel).

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Oh yes, l0calh05t, your jsFader plugin come in really handy in EnergyXT and any other programs I might use that don't have proper panning law!

Thank you SO MUCH! I hope it will be available as a 64-bit one day.

I would also like to thank you for one of the best compressors out there, too... Thank you!
Thanks I'm actually surprised anyone still uses it as it was originally intended only as a proof of concept. Re the 64-bit version... I'm unsure if I still got a working build system for jsFader... if I can get one together quickly a 64-bit version should be possible.
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Old 08-19-2013, 02:07 PM   #118
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Are there audio examples we can hear that compare the differences?

I never noticed anything odd our counter intuitive about the way reaper does panning.
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Old 03-02-2015, 06:29 PM   #119
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March 2015 and Reaper 4,77 still produces these weired pan curves!

Reaper 4.77, pan law 0 dB (standard):



Why is Reaper boosting a signal up to 1.8 dB when panned between 48% and 59% left or right? (but no boost at all panned 100% left/right)


Using l0calh05t's JS plug pantest2, everything is all right (boosting a fully panned signal up to 3 dB):



I've come across a variety of daws and digital consoles that all comply with l0calh05t's JS plug. Only Reaper does not.
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Old 03-02-2015, 06:40 PM   #120
SonicAxiom
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Vegas (here: vers. 7) delivers the smoothest (most musical) approach with clothoid transistions:

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